German Economy Contracts 0.2%, Final Quarter 2004

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
..... but they have extremely high taxes and a huge welfare state. Unfortunately, the U.S. is quickly becoming like Europe.

LOL!

I think the gap between European and US systems are quite huge. And you spend far more of your tax dollars on military and police, than social security.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: Dissipate
..... but they have extremely high taxes and a huge welfare state. Unfortunately, the U.S. is quickly becoming like Europe.

LOL!

I think the gap between European and US systems are quite huge. And you spend far more of your tax dollars on military and police, than social security.

over the 1/2 the budget is consumed by social security/medicare. Less than 20% of the mudget is military.

 

[irwincur]

What are you smoking? The French government for instance, extracts 50% of France's GDP in taxes. The U.S. is not far behind, and we are getting there.

That's child play compared to Northern Europe. Effective tax rates for the middle class (I mean government class) are nearing 90%. If you are rich your rates can even be over 100%, I have seen 135% for some of the richest people. Most experts peg 2020 or so as the year that the government cannot squeeze any more out. Some experts are looking towards 2025 when these European SOCIALIST STATES are basically bankrupt and unable to increase income to cover major expenses.

This is right around the time that a European power (not saying who) will decide that they are ripe for the picking. After all, when you hit this point, the only way of generating more income to feed the beast known as government is war. It is a repeating cycle. Early European wars were fed by bankrupt monarchs, WWI and WWII were fed by bankrupt nations, it is looking like WWIII will be the same. Same cylce, same stupid people, same concepts - after all a Monarchy in form is pretty much the same as a Socialist state.


Can't wait to see USSR style bread lines and empty store shelves. I will be investing in Levi's to sell to the poor Europeans about then. That is if the liberals have not heeded the warning and have done the same to us.

When do people realize that they have lost control of the government and they no longer have the power to take it back? Usually after all hop is lost.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: irwincur

What are you smoking? The French government for instance, extracts 50% of France's GDP in taxes. The U.S. is not far behind, and we are getting there.

That's child play compared to Northern Europe. Effective tax rates for the middle class (I mean government class) are nearing 90%. If you are rich your rates can even be over 100%, I have seen 135% for some of the richest people. Most experts peg 2020 or so as the year that the government cannot squeeze any more out. Some experts are looking towards 2025 when these European SOCIALIST STATES are basically bankrupt and unable to increase income to cover major expenses.

This is right around the time that a European power (not saying who) will decide that they are ripe for the picking. After all, when you hit this point, the only way of generating more income to feed the beast known as government is war. It is a repeating cycle. Early European wars were fed by bankrupt monarchs, WWI and WWII were fed by bankrupt nations, it is looking like WWIII will be the same. Same cylce, same stupid people, same concepts - after all a Monarchy in form is pretty much the same as a Socialist state.


Can't wait to see USSR style bread lines and empty store shelves. I will be investing in Levi's to sell to the poor Europeans about then. That is if the liberals have not heeded the warning and have done the same to us.

When do people realize that they have lost control of the government and they no longer have the power to take it back? Usually after all hop is lost.

Hello and please inform yourself more about northern europe before posting again, goodbye.

 

[Genx87]

Noone answered my question. Does this 155% debt include minus the debt that is owed to japan?
Like if Japan owes $1000 to someone and has someone else owe it $1000, does it count as $1000 debt or $0 debt?
Someone who owes $1000 on a bond, and owns an $1000 bond is in better financial shape than someone who owes $500 on a bond but isn't owed anything, even if they have twice the debt.

Japan owns about 800 billion worth of U.S. debt. That will maybe knock down their debt by 10%. This is of course assuming the United States owns 0 dollars worth of Japanese debt.

 

[irwincur]

Hello and please inform yourself more about northern europe before posting again, goodbye.

Would you care to back this up... I'm waiting. When you do, make sure to add up EFFECTIVE tax rates, you know the sum total of all taxes paid. Even those that your government has tried to hide - you know fees, fines, etc...

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: irwincur

Hello and please inform yourself more about northern europe before posting again, goodbye.

Would you care to back this up... I'm waiting. When you do, make sure to add up EFFECTIVE tax rates, you know the sum total of all taxes paid. Even those that your government has tried to hide - you know fees, fines, etc...

could you back up your post? you made the accusations first so go ahead, I'm waiting

 

[irwincur]

What is Agenda 2010?

The most frequently asked questions on Agenda 2010 :

What is Agenda 2010?

"Agenda 2010" is the Federal Government's extensive programme to boost economic growth, safeguard the social security systems for the long term, and strengthen Germany as a business location. Chancellor Schröder presented "Agenda 2010" to the German Bundestag on 14 March in a government statement entitled "Courage for Peace and Courage to Change". Work, the welfare state and the economy - these are at the heart of the agenda.

Is Agenda 2010 socially just?

Yes, because anything that provides Germany and its people with a future is just. Anything that creates new opportunities is just: opportunities for everyone to develop skills and to contribute to the country's well-being. Opportunities for more education and more investments, opportunities to return to employment from unemployment. These are all opportunities to participate in society, trade and industry and politics. This is the concept of fairness that forms the basis of Agenda 2010.

It is worthwhile in this age of globalisation to create fairness and safeguard it for the long term. This is the great task to be achieved in the coming decade. Today's generation must change Germany so that the next generation inherits a country that is prepared for globalisation. This can only be successful if, for the sake of the next generation, today's generation is prepared to relinquish some benefits provided by the state and replace these with greater self-determination. This means more individual initiative and a greater sense of common good and citizenship. Germany must become a truly child-friendly country once again so that it has a future. In order to achieve this, everyone in Germany must be prepared to relinquish certain demands on the welfare state. A government must also be able to make this effective. The state is also obliged, however, to ensure its citizens have the necessary means for greater self-determination as regards pensions and the health system. This is the reason why the Federal Government is now introducing significant tax cuts. - from the German Embassy



Wow, looks like Germany gets it. They know that they will have to reduce tax rates and programs to stay solvent. Scary thing is, that their insolvency was charted out to occur a little after 2010, not too far away. Looks like they need to get moving.

Never mind this interesting viewpoint... "Yes, because anything that provides Germany and its people with a future is just." Wow, and they call Bush Hitler. Looks like the exact same reasoning that got Germany in trouble before.


Whatever the case, With Europe pathetic economy, ther shrinking workforce, and increasing laziness of the workers, it looks bad for the welfare state. Some nations will reform. Others will most likely ride the welfare socialist state down into full blown Communism, as that is the only logical solution to a bankrupt welfare state - redstribute all assets from the populace. Some people will just never learn.

 

[Czar]

First, link?

and, Germany = northern europe?

 

[irwincur]

Vetoes and lobbyism are no answer to Germany's problems. Decisive and rapid action is the only answer.

Don't think they would be in such a hurry if it was not a major problem.

 

[irwincur]

"A society that promotes the winners and their interests at the expense of the weakest does not deserve the designation "civilised". The new poverty is being ignored, accepted or covered up by vulgar and seductive speeches about solidarity and fair distribution. The fact is that the large middle class has pulled a curtain over Norwegian reality." Ivar Brevik

From Northern Europe.

Sure sounds like a Socialist State to me...

I continue...

"The Scandinavian welfare society model is built on the principles of poverty eradication and social inclusion. Until recently poverty has not been part of the political agenda in Norway. Most people have taken the benefits of an advanced social-democratic welfare state for granted and expect its continuing progress."

Noble I must say.

"In the same period a number of expensive reforms in health and education obliging the local governments to increase their service provision have been introduced. This has created a situation where municipalities with small revenues are practically bankrupt and not able to meet their obligations towards their inhabitants. While a decentralised taxation and government system has created large differences in service provision among communities on the local level, the Norwegian state is wealthier than ever due to its petroleum resources."

Uh oh... cities going bankrupt because they cannot meet the social needs...

"Under the pressure of the current globalising economy, with trans-national corporations and the international financial institutions as the most prominent promoters of deregulation, the State's role in providing for its citizens is under attack. The considerable redistribution from public to private production and consumption and the ever-shrinking public share of GDP is causing severe fiscal problems."

Problems... no, nothing to see here, keep moving along.




I can find this crap all day long. This is what I would consider to be a pro Welfare State argument. The future is definitely not too bright.


Cite:

http://www.velferdsstaten.no/english/we...+undermining+of+the+welfare+state.html

 

[Czar]

And how much do you know about the economy in these countries, expecialy norway since we are on that subject?

 

[Genx87]

and, Germany = northern europe?

Germany, Denmark, and Poland are usually considered northern Europe. Sweden, Norway, and Finland are considered Scandanavia.

 

[irwincur]

"Yet elite opinion in the West continues to think that price controls and other command economic regulations, together with rights to jobs, income, housing, education, medical care, etc., are still the direction called for by political and social progress. This despite the lesson that the failure was not in the Soviet Union alone. European states that never went as far as the Soviets, but did put in place large systems of welfare benefits and job protections, consistently experience poor to no economic growth and persistent high unemployment. What had been the British disease now looks like the French disease, as French truckers, for instance, regularly freeze French transportation to demand an even lower retirement age, greater benefits, etc. [note]. In the liberal state, such things would not be political issues." - http://www.friesian.com/freestat.htm

"Theoretically, Public Choice economics reveals why in the welfare state, as has been said of the National Health Service, "useless work replaces useful work." That is, it is nicer to get something for nothing through rent seeking than to actually create and run a business that avoids bankruptcy and provides something that people want. The costs of political appropriations are dispersed (onto the oblivious public), and the benefits concentrated (onto a grateful me), while the benefits of generating wealth economically are dispersed (onto the oblivious consumer, who takes them for granted), while the costs are concentrated (onto my precarious business)." - http://www.friesian.com/freestat.htm

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Genx87

and, Germany = northern europe?

Germany, Denmark, and Poland are usually considered northern Europe. Sweden, Norway, and Finland are considered Scandanavia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe

Northern Europe is a name for the northern part of the European continent. At different times this region has been defined differently but today it is generally seen to include:

the Nordic countries, i.e. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland.
the Baltic States, i.e. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
the British Isles, which includes the United Kingdom and Ireland
others, e.g. Northern Russia, Northern Germany, Northern Poland, and The Netherlands

So naming germany as some generalization for all northern Europe is quite a strech

 

[Genx87]

So naming germany as some generalization for all northern Europe is quite a strech

Just admit you had no idea Germany is part of Northern Europe.

 

[Czar]

http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid/1167/Taxes_ease.html
Check out the graph there for the % of taxes

http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid/1383/At_the_top.html
GDP per capitia

And here, a good source for a change for you to use
http://www.oecd.org/statsportal/0,2639,en_2825_293564_1_1_1_1_1,00.html

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Genx87

So naming germany as some generalization for all northern Europe is quite a strech

Just admit you had no idea Germany is part of Northern Europe.

erm, Germany is part of Northern Europe, just Germany does not mean it is Northern Europe

 

[Genx87]

One would have to ask if your % of gdp chart is truely accurate. Why does the United States economy grow at a rate of 4% while the German economy shrinks?

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: Genx87
One would have to ask if your % of gdp chart is truely accurate. Why does the United States economy grow at a rate of 4% while the German economy shrinks?

Because they are in recession and we are not? Duh.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: rahvin

But the relentless rise in the value of the euro last year has also hit the competitiveness of German products overseas.

The effect has been to depress prospects for the 12-nation eurozone as a whole, as well as Germany.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4266503.stm

So all of the posters proclaiming the decline of the dollar is the end of the US economy and that europe will dominate the future want to explain why the German economy has begun contracting?

It is very simple. Socialism has swept Europe. Not only do they have tons of regulations (especially regarding labor & wages), but they have extremely high taxes and a huge welfare state. Unfortunately, the U.S. is quickly becoming like Europe.

If you had researched more carefully you'd have seen that denmark, the country where i llive is thriving. Not only that, but it is one of the most socialized countries in the world.

 

[Genx87]

Because they are in recession and we are not? Duh.

That must explain why their gdp growth is rarely above 2%, even during the good times.

But thank you for the simple minded answer.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Genx87
One would have to ask if your % of gdp chart is truely accurate. Why does the United States economy grow at a rate of 4% while the German economy shrinks?

its from the OECD, you surely must have heard about it?
http://www.oecd.org/about/0,2337,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
here you go

The OECD groups 30 member countries sharing a commitment to democratic government and the market economy. With active relationships with some 70 other countries, NGOs and civil society, it has a global reach. Best known for its publications and its statistics, its work covers economic and social issues from macroeconomics, to trade, education, development and science and innovation.

The OECD plays a prominent role in fostering good governance in the public service and in corporate activity. It helps governments to ensure the responsiveness of key economic areas with sectoral monitoring. By deciphering emerging issues and identifying policies that work, it helps policy-makers adopt strategic orientations. It is well known for its individual country surveys and reviews.

The OECD produces internationally agreed instruments, decisions and recommendations to promote rules of the game in areas where multilateral agreement is necessary for individual countries to make progress in a globalised economy. Sharing the benefits of growth is also crucial as shown in activities such as emerging economies, sustainable development, territorial economy and aid.

Dialogue, consensus, peer review and pressure are at the very heart of OECD. Its governing body, the Council, is made up of Representatives of member countries. It provides guidance on the work of OECD committees and decides on the annual budget. It is headed by Donald J. Johnston, who has been Secretary-General since June 1, 1996.

 

[znaps]

Originally posted by: Genx87

and, Germany = northern europe?

Germany, Denmark, and Poland are usually considered northern Europe. Sweden, Norway, and Finland are considered Scandanavia.

Show me links to where you got that.

Here's mine: http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/europe.htm

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Genx87
One would have to ask if your % of gdp chart is truely accurate. Why does the United States economy grow at a rate of 4% while the German economy shrinks?

its from the OECD, you surely must have heard about it?
http://www.oecd.org/about/0,2337,en_2649_201185_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
here you go

The OECD groups 30 member countries sharing a commitment to democratic government and the market economy. With active relationships with some 70 other countries, NGOs and civil society, it has a global reach. Best known for its publications and its statistics, its work covers economic and social issues from macroeconomics, to trade, education, development and science and innovation.

The OECD plays a prominent role in fostering good governance in the public service and in corporate activity. It helps governments to ensure the responsiveness of key economic areas with sectoral monitoring. By deciphering emerging issues and identifying policies that work, it helps policy-makers adopt strategic orientations. It is well known for its individual country surveys and reviews.

The OECD produces internationally agreed instruments, decisions and recommendations to promote rules of the game in areas where multilateral agreement is necessary for individual countries to make progress in a globalised economy. Sharing the benefits of growth is also crucial as shown in activities such as emerging economies, sustainable development, territorial economy and aid.

Dialogue, consensus, peer review and pressure are at the very heart of OECD. Its governing body, the Council, is made up of Representatives of member countries. It provides guidance on the work of OECD committees and decides on the annual budget. It is headed by Donald J. Johnston, who has been Secretary-General since June 1, 1996.

Ahh that explains it lol

Ill ask it again.

One would have to ask if your % of gdp chart is truely accurate. Why does the United States economy grow at a rate of 4% while the German economy shrinks?