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German Economist Says Germany Being Dumbed Down by Muslims

I

Infohawk

Lifer
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/09/AR2010090903264.html

Sarrazin, a board member of the German Central Bank until he resigned under pressure Thursday, has divided the nation by postulating the theory that Germany is being "dumbed down" by Muslim immigrants and their children. Wielding statistics and scientific arguments both in his book and in public comments, he delves into territory largely taboo here since the Holocaust, suggesting that "hereditary factors" are at least partly to blame. Turks and Kurdish immigrants, he asserts, are genetically predisposed to lower intelligence than Germans and other ethnic groups, including Jews.
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I'm glad this guy was forced to resign.

Focusing on race is ridiculous for the obvious reasons. Even assuming the average German were smarter than the average Turk, statistically many Turks would still be smarter than the average German. It's unfortunate because it's a red herring in an otherwise legitimate debate on the role of Islam in Europe and the rest of the world. Islam is a culture, belief system and religion, but it is not a race.
 
Infohawk said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/09/AR2010090903264.html



I'm glad this guy was forced to resign.

Focusing on race is ridiculous for the obvious reasons. Even assuming the average German were smarter than the average Turk, statistically many Turks would still be smarter than the average German. It's unfortunate because it's a red herring in an otherwise legitimate debate on the role of Islam in Europe and the rest of the world. Islam is a culture, belief system and religion, but it is not a race.
Click to expand...

Agreed about the resignation, this guy's argument is ridiculous.

Still, I can't help but wonder if the "legitimate debate" about Islam is really all that different from Nazi style arguments about genetically inferior races. For most of the Western world that has engaged in the Islamic debate, Islam DOES fill basically the same role as race has in previous discussions. Islam involves people from different places, with different skin tones, different language, different food, different experiences, etc. In other words, it's a pretty easily identifiable "them" that's distinctly different from the norm in Western society.

Previous generations' debates about certain races weren't JUST because of race, many of them were about anyone who didn't fit the mold of the "average" person in society. It's ironic that Germany is the question here, since at least one target of Nazi hatred was almost entirely based on religious and cultural differences.
 
His book is topping the bestseller lists and is already in its 7th reprinting. I wonder if people on this forum still believe that the far-right is not a force in Europe.
 
Religion and culture are different than race in that you can change them. You can't change race. Your comparison of Islam to a race only perpetuates racial stereotypes about Islam being Arabic. Islam has adherents of all races. Race is absolutely irrelevant to Islam.

Cultural relativism is dangerous. Just because a culture is different does not mean it should be tolerated. Look at our own subcultures. We do not tolerate those we object to. Neo-nazis in America are outcasts. Why should you treat cultures that promote stoning and prejudice against Jews and women any different? If you come to the west you should unequivocally shed off barbaric behaviors and beliefs.
 
Infohawk said:
Religion and culture are different than race in that you can change them. You can't change race. Your comparison of Islam to a race only perpetuates racial stereotypes about Islam being Arabic. Islam has adherents of all races. Race is absolutely irrelevant to Islam.

Cultural relativism is dangerous. Just because a culture is different does not mean it should be tolerated. Look at our own subcultures. We do not tolerate those we object to. Neo-nazis in America are outcasts. Why should you treat cultures that promote stoning and prejudice against Jews and women any different? If you come to the west you should unequivocally shed off barbaric behaviors and beliefs.
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Should they adopt the barbaric behaviors and beliefs in the countries they move to? Or should they work to change them?
 
CanOWorms said:
His book is topping the bestseller lists and is already in its 7th reprinting. I wonder if people on this forum still believe that the far-right is not a force in Europe.
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Have you ever heard of the Bell Curve? If so, do you want to concede that the far-right is is just as much of a force in America?

This story actually demonstrates that democracy is strong in Germany. This guy lost his job and other powerful people are rejecting him. What more do you want? Compare this to a backwards country like Iran where leaders spout out hate and are tolerated if not celebrated by their citizens.
 
Infohawk said:
Religion and culture are different than race in that you can change them. You can't change race. Your comparison of Islam to a race only perpetuates racial stereotypes about Islam being Arabic. Islam has adherents of all races. Race is absolutely irrelevant to Islam.
Click to expand...
Well to be fair, it's not my comparison. I'd say it's pretty obvious what mental image most Americans come up with when they think of Islam, and it's not blond haired, blue eyed Swedes.

The fact that you can change race has nothing to do with what I was saying. My point is that "Islam" works for Westerners the exact same way race has in the past, by identifying an "outsider" group that is obviously different from the norm in that society.
Cultural relativism is dangerous. Just because a culture is different does not mean it should be tolerated. Look at our own subcultures. We do not tolerate those we object to. Neo-nazis in America are outcasts. Why should you treat cultures that promote stoning and prejudice against Jews and women any different? If you come to the west you should unequivocally shed off barbaric behaviors and beliefs.
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Who's preaching cultural relativism? People who practice or preach things opposed to Western laws, while living in Western countries, should rethink their position. I'm not sure holding this position requires me to declare Muslims inferior across the board, as I see a fair number of people doing.
 
Infohawk said:
Have you ever heard of the Bell Curve? If so, do you want to concede that the far-right is is just as much of a force in America?
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I don't think that they're as pervasive of a force compared to Europe, but they have become stronger with the NY Mosque controversy. I think that the method of government in the United States is one of the biggest obstacles to the path of the far-right. Europe's systems tend to encourage far-right growth.

This story actually demonstrates that democracy is strong in Germany. This guy lost his job and other powerful people are rejecting him. What more do you want? Compare this to a backwards country like Iran where leaders spout out hate and are tolerated if not celebrated by their citizens.
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Sarrazin's comments have the support of ~60% of the German population. It would be nice if that was a lower number. That is what I want. I want less of a far-right influence.
 
Rainsford said:
Well to be fair, it's not my comparison. I'd say it's pretty obvious what mental image most Americans come up with when they think of Islam, and it's not blond haired, blue eyed Swedes.
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Would you agree that the main issue most Americans have with Muslims is not their race? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to suspect that most Americans have an issue with the fact that some Muslims attack America and have barbaric (and granted foreign) values?
 
Narmer said:
His name indicates he descended from Arabs. He hates his own kind, like Hitler.
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From wikipedia:

Sarrazin was born in Gera, Germany to a doctor and the daughter of a West Prussian landowner. His paternal family, a French Huguenot family, originates in Burgundy, while his grandmother was English-Italian.[4] He has explained that his name means saracen (i.e. Muslim) and is common in Southern France: "It is derived from the Arab pirates that were called “Saracens” in the Middle Ages". His mother has Polish ancestry. He has referred to himself as "a European mongrel".[5]
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Infohawk said:
Would you agree that the main issue most Americans have with Muslims is not their race? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to suspect that most Americans have an issue with the fact that some Muslims attack America and have barbaric (and granted foreign) values?
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It's a combination of race, the shorthand version of which is basically appearance, religion, cultural attitudes (both real and perceived), and behavior (both real and perceived). In the case of Muslims, it is critical both that a) some have attacked Americans, and b) they are perceived as alien and foreign. Either of these two separately would produce a much weaker reaction.

- wolf
 
woolfe9999 said:
It's a combination of race, the shorthand version of which is basically appearance, religion, cultural attitudes (both real and perceived), and behavior (both real and perceived). In the case of Muslims, it is critical both that a) some have attacked Americans, and b) they are perceived as alien and foreign. Either of these two separately would produce a much weaker reaction.

- wolf
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I don't have a problem with the second part of your post but the first part is just wrong. Religion, culture and behavior have nothing to do with race.
 
Why do they accept retarded muslim immigrants? The educated muslims i worked with in a drug lab were good people without the stereotype crazy muslim values. Sounds like germanys problem is low immigration standards; stop taking in uneducated people!
 
ShawnD1 said:
Why do they accept retarded muslim immigrants? The educated muslims i worked with in a drug lab were good people without the stereotype crazy muslim values. Sounds like germanys problem is low immigration standards; stop taking in uneducated people!
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that's not germany's problem its europe 's
 
Infohawk said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/09/AR2010090903264.html



I'm glad this guy was forced to resign.

Focusing on race is ridiculous for the obvious reasons. Even assuming the average German were smarter than the average Turk, statistically many Turks would still be smarter than the average German. It's unfortunate because it's a red herring in an otherwise legitimate debate on the role of Islam in Europe and the rest of the world. Islam is a culture, belief system and religion, but it is not a race.
Click to expand...

Well, Islam is close enough to a race, just like Jews and Hindus are races.
 
Infohawk said:
Can't tell if serious... :|
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LOL, Hindus are mostly Indians, Jews are mostly... well Jews (their own mixture of middle-easterner, ashkanazi and spanish) and Islams are mostly middle-easterners.

They are not more diverse like what Christianity spread to the world.
 
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