German bishop faces 5 years for denying the holocaust

[SandEagle]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1145739.html

Deny the existence of God, get a Nobel Prize. Question the holocaust and get 5 years in prison? lol.
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A German court said on Wednesday it had summoned traditionalist Catholic bishop Richard Williamson to face charges he denied the Holocaust, an offence punishable by up to five years in jail.

In comments broadcast on Swedish television last January, Williamson said he believed no more than 300,000 Jews perished in the Holocaust and that there were no gas chambers.

The consensus among historians is the Nazis killed some six million Jews in the Holocaust.

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The district court in the southern city of Regensburg has set a hearing for April 16, because Williamson had appealed against a 12,000 euro fine for incitement that was summarily handed down last year for his remarks.

The court has now summoned Williamson, 69, to face questioning in person, court spokesman Thomas Frick said.

Authorities cannot force him to attend, but if Williamson is not represented at the hearing, then the appeal against the fine will be thrown out, Frick added.

"Then the fine becomes legally binding," he said.

Williamson's remarks broadcast on the television station were made near to Regensburg, within the court's jurisdiction.

British-born Williamson belongs to an ultra-traditionalist Catholic splinter group, the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX).

The Pope caused outrage among Jewish groups last year when he lifted excommunications on four SSPX bishops, including Williamson, at about the same time that Williamson denied Jews had died in Nazi gas chambers.

Williamson later offered an apology for his comments though the Vatican rejected this, saying it did not go far enough.

SSPX, which opposes the way the Catholic Church has evolved over the last 40 years, rejects the Second Vatican Council's decision to stop calling Jews killers of Jesus Christ and to seek good ties with Protestants, Jews, Muslims and other faiths

 

[PokerGuy]

Holocaust deniers are idiots, but these kinds of thoughtcrimes are just as bad. If he wants to say it didn't happen, he should be able to do so. Nobody should be forced to be silent about their beliefs, it flies in the face of all freedom of speech.

 

[woolfe9999]

On free speech grounds, I oppose European laws that criminalize HD.

However, it should be noted that Williamson is a complete moron. He not only denies the Holocaust, he promotes 9/11 conspiracy theories and every form of modern crankery on the planet.

- wolf

 

[SandEagle]

Holocaust deniers are idiots, but these kinds of thoughtcrimes are just as bad. If he wants to say it didn't happen, he should be able to do so. Nobody should be forced to be silent about their beliefs, it flies in the face of all freedom of speech.

i don't think he's denying it, just questioning the numbers. i agree though that he is a tool and should be ignored

 

[Jaskalas]

What, the man does not have a right to be a moron? Shame on you Europe for stooping to his level.

 

[thraashman]

Germany has had laws against denying the Holocaust for a long time. I believe the premise is so that German people can't deny their past wrongdoings and potentially repeat them. And also on the comment in the OP

Deny the existence of God, get a Nobel Prize. Question the holocaust and get 5 years in prison? lol

There are some places on this planet that would imprison you or kill you for denying the existence of a god. These are the same places that tend to breed terrorism. Are you saying that's what you'd like to see for people in the western world too?

 

[Noobtastic]

You have to understand Germany's predicament. It was host to the only industrialized genocide in the history of mankind. The victims were historically one of the most persecuted people in Europe, having been expelled from virtually all other European states at one point or another.

While holocaist denial is a non-violent and purely opinionated subject-matter, it has created serious issues in Germany where Neo-nazi and Islamists groups are couching their agenda in pseudo-intellect "skepticism."

And because anti-semitism is at an all-time high in Europe right now, I don't blame Germany for trying to shut down one of the major themes.

 

[HumblePie]

While I agree he is a tool, and in my book what clergyman isn't, if he feels the need to say what idiot things he wants I think he should. However, I can see where a society of people wouldn't want idiots spouting of revisionist crap in the attempt to persuade the population to thing known to be false. Revisionist history by religious leaders at work.

 

[PokerGuy]

You have to understand Germany's predicament. It was host to the only industrialized genocide in the history of mankind. The victims were historically one of the most persecuted people in Europe, having been expelled from virtually all other European states at one point or another.

While holocaist denial is a non-violent and purely opinionated subject-matter, it has created serious issues in Germany where Neo-nazi and Islamists groups are couching their agenda in pseudo-intellect "skepticism."

And because anti-semitism is at an all-time high in Europe right now, I don't blame Germany for trying to shut down one of the major themes.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. They have good intentions with these laws, but no matter how you view it, it's a restriction on freedom of speech, and even worse, freedom of thought. It's basically saying "you must believe what we tell you, and you must profess your belief in what we tell you, or end up in jail. You are not free to believe what you like". That sounds like Iran or China, not Germany or the US.

 

[woolfe9999]

You have to understand Germany's predicament. It was host to the only industrialized genocide in the history of mankind. The victims were historically one of the most persecuted people in Europe, having been expelled from virtually all other European states at one point or another.

While holocaist denial is a non-violent and purely opinionated subject-matter, it has created serious issues in Germany where Neo-nazi and Islamists groups are couching their agenda in pseudo-intellect "skepticism."

And because anti-semitism is at an all-time high in Europe right now, I don't blame Germany for trying to shut down one of the major themes.

While you've accurately stated Germany's rationale for the laws, the trouble with anti-HD laws is that they likely do not work. Here in the U.S., we have total free speech on the issue, and HD is a very tiny fringe. It is likely a more commonly held belief in Europe, where it is illegal. Unfortunately, the anti-HD laws provide a rhetorical rallying cry for anti-semites and neo-Nazis, who now claim to be a politically oppressed group. Arming neo-nazis with an opportunity to use "free speech" arguments to support their cause is non-productive.

- wolf

 

[woolfe9999]

i don't think he's denying it, just questioning the numbers. i agree though that he is a tool and should be ignored

H'e denied the existence of any gas chambers, among other things. He's a full blown denier.

- wolf

 

[StageLeft]

Holocaust deniers are idiots, but these kinds of thoughtcrimes are just as bad. If he wants to say it didn't happen, he should be able to do so. Nobody should be forced to be silent about their beliefs, it flies in the face of all freedom of speech.

I would say worse. Deniers are a tiny minority and can easily be marginalized/mocked by everybody else. Legally compelling statements from people like this is, well I hate to do it, Nazish. Kind of ironic really that the country that grew the Nazis, in an attempt to steer clear of some kind of a repeat, uses brutally overbearing laws on what people can say.

You have to understand Germany's predicament. It was host to the only industrialized genocide in the history of mankind

This is no predicament. It's legal to deny the holocaust in the US but how many people do it? This law is stupid.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

On free speech grounds, I oppose European laws that criminalize HD.

However, it should be noted that Williamson is a complete moron. He not only denies the Holocaust, he promotes 9/11 conspiracy theories and every form of modern crankery on the planet.

- wolf

He is a moron. Getting five years for being an idiot (where have I heard that word?) is as least as bad as say, convicting someone of drunk driving who wasn't.

Give the government more power and it will use it. Don't bet that it will be benign though.

 

[StageLeft]

H'e denied the existence of any gas chambers, among other things. He's a full blown denier.

- wolf

So what defines a denier exactly? If I say only 1M jews were killed am I a denier? Do I get probation whereas if I say only .5M died I get a year and if only 50k died I get three and if none died 5? This is the silliness of it. Is there a state-set standard to which I must adhere or else I'm a denier; a bullet-point list of numbers including modes of death, numbers of gas chambers, etc.? It's really a very silly law.

 

[PokerGuy]

While I agree he is a tool, and in my book what clergyman isn't, if he feels the need to say what idiot things he wants I think he should. However, I can see where a society of people wouldn't want idiots spouting of revisionist crap in the attempt to persuade the population to thing known to be false. Revisionist history by religious leaders at work.

And who gets to decide what is 'revisionist crap' and what is not? One man's revisionist crap is another man's truth. Next thing you know, the government is mandating that you only make public statements about global warming that agree with it's policy. Then, how about we restrict speech so you can only make statements agreeing with the government on everything.

 

[WelshBloke]

I would say worse. Deniers are a tiny minority and can easily be marginalized/mocked by everybody else. Legally compelling statements from people like this is, well I hate to do it, Nazish. Kind of ironic really that the country that grew the Nazis, in an attempt to steer clear of some kind of a repeat, uses brutally overbearing laws on what people can say.This is no predicament. It's legal to deny the holocaust in the US but how many people do it? This law is stupid.

You have to remember this is Germany and the Holocaust wasnt very long ago and was enabled by a lot of Germans.

Your grandad may have fought in WW2, if you were German theres a fair chance your grandad worked in/knew about or supplied a concentration camp. Your going to have a lot of denial in a country then.

 

[Kirby]

Just drive him to Dachau and lock in the gas chamber for a few days.

 

[hal2kilo]

You have to remember this is Germany and the Holocaust wasnt very long ago and was enabled by a lot of Germans.

Your grandad may have fought in WW2, if you were German theres a fair chance your grandad worked in/knew about or supplied a concentration camp. Your going to have a lot of denial in a country then.

Don't ask me for a link because I don't have one, but I think even though technically the German people inacted these types of laws, the US and the world community put a lot of pressure on them to enact them. After all we were bankrolling them with the Marshall Plan and had lots of leverage.

 

[StageLeft]

Your grandad may have fought in WW2, if you were German theres a fair chance your grandad worked in/knew about or supplied a concentration camp. Your going to have a lot of denial in a country then.

This is a very fair statement.

 

[woolfe9999]

So what defines a denier exactly? If I say only 1M jews were killed am I a denier? Do I get probation whereas if I say only .5M died I get a year and if only 50k died I get three and if none died 5? This is the silliness of it. Is there a state-set standard to which I must adhere or else I'm a denier; a bullet-point list of numbers including modes of death, numbers of gas chambers, etc.? It's really a very silly law.

Are you asking what defines it according to European laws, or what defines it in common parlance? If you are asking for a legal definition in Germany, you'd have to research that yourself. However, I can give you an idea of what commonly defines HD :

1. Rejecting the fact that poison gas was used to kill Jews and others.
2. Stating that there was no policy of mass extermination on the part of the German government.
3. Stating that substantially fewer than 5-6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis.

I believe in Germany you can be convicted for publically (but not in private conversation) taking any of these positions. And no, I don't think the penalty is guaged to the extremity of the view in question. Either it is in bounds or out of bounds.

- wolf

 

[CanOWorms]

You have to understand Germany's predicament. It was host to the only industrialized genocide in the history of mankind. The victims were historically one of the most persecuted people in Europe, having been expelled from virtually all other European states at one point or another.

There have been other "industrialized" genocides, including Germany's own Herero genocide in Africa. What do you think the WW2 Holocaust developed from? Don't be a holocaust denier yourself.

 

[Nitemare]

so his church is the Catholic sister of Westboro Baptist Church?

 

[MotF Bane]

The consensus among historians is the Nazis killed some six million Jews in the Holocaust.

It's a consensus now?

However, the bishop should have the right to free speech.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Just drive him to Dachau and lock in the gas chamber for a few days.

5 minutes should be enough. /s

 

[woolfe9999]

There have been other "industrialized" genocides, including Germany's own Herero genocide in Africa. What do you think the WW2 Holocaust developed from? Don't be a holocaust denier yourself.

I think the use of the term "industrialized" to distinguish the Holocaust from other genocides is problematic. With the Heroro, the Germans used mass starvation and well poisioning. The Khmer Rouge shot a lot of people and hacked others to death with machettes. The Germans used massed starvation and shooting against Jews and others, but they also used gas chambers. There are legitimate points of distinction for every genocide, in terms of each being unique in its own way, but perhaps the method of killing is not really the most salient point of distinction.

- wolf