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George McGovern 'Urges' Bush Impeachment

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Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: eskimospy
I just linked one you idiot. Hamdi v. Rumsfeld ruled that the Bush administration holding a US citizen indefinitely without trial violated the constitution's grant of habeas corpus.

Please, continue.

Why don't you list all the Supreme Court rulings saying how much Nixon did that was unconstitutional.

Oh, that's right, you can't, so I guess he didn't do anything wrong, and was going to be impeached for no reason.

Did Germany's top court ever rule that much Hitler did was unconstitutional/illegal? Guess he's gotten a bum rap.

Did Japan's judicial system ever condemn Emperor Hirohito for anything on WWII? Another unfairly criticized ruler.

There's a lot more to the issue than Supreme Court rulings; but Pabster has no interest in getting informed.
 
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Harvey

OK. I've got the picture. You ARE one of the lying, murdering traitors. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbsup:

So your proof that Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq is that he believed what the CIA told him. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbsup:

So you have no way to refute any of the evidence I and others have posted, but you continue to deny, distract and divert attention from the truth. At least, we know you're not too stupid to attempt that so thanks again for confirming you're one of the lying, murdering Bushwhacko traitors.
 
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Does anybody believe that two Al Qaeda members could have been tortured by the CIA without Presidential approval?

My understanding is that many were briefed on the methods used, including Dem Congresspersons who now feign outrage.

Your phrasing presupposes that waterboarding and other methods are "torture" under US law. A fact I do not believe to have been established.



If members of Al Qaeda were tortured by the CIA and the President didn't know about it, shouldn't such a President be impeached?

I don't see why. A President is neither omnicient or omnipresent. I have to believe that many things occur within the CIA, or are done by their operatives, without knowlegde of their superiors.

Fern

There is no doubt at all that water boarding is torture. No doubt at all. I also have no doubt that many things occur within the CIA without knowledge of superiors. I believe that when one of them is torture the President should be impeached. His desk is where the responsibility lies and where the buck stops. So your two pronged refutation of my argument is wrong on two counts, in my opinion.

Says who? Says you? Guess what sparky. It doesnt matter if Patton himself said its torture. Until it's ruled illegal in USSC it isnt. Move the fuck on.

It doesn't matter what Patton or the Supreme Court says, it is torture and if I could get you on a waterboard I could have you admit it in about a minute, you over-intellecutualized pin-head.

I thought torture wasn't an effective and accurate form of interrogation....😕

He didn't say it was. It's an effective form of coercion, and he said he'd get the guy to say what he wants him to say.

So much for your attempt at a point while you implicitly defend torture.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Harvey

OK. I've got the picture. You ARE one of the lying, murdering traitors. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbsup:

So your proof that Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq is that he believed what the CIA told him. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbsup:

So you have no way to refute any of the evidence I and others have posted, but you continue to deny, distract and divert attention from the truth. At least, we know you're not too stupid to attempt that so thanks again for confirming you're one of the lying, murdering Bushwhacko traitors.

You did not show any evidence that on or before 1/3/03 George Bush knew that Iraq did not possess any WMDs. That is your claim, you have to back it up. All you showed was that the CIA told him that they thought that Iraq had WMDs while the State Department did not think that Iraq had WMDs. Bush believed what the CIA told him. That does not make him a liar. Please provide proof of your claim that on 1/3/03 George Bush knowingly lied about Iraq having WMDs.

Thanks for calling me a liar, murderer, and a traitor btw, thats pretty low, even for you.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234


He didn't say it was. It's an effective form of coercion, and he said he'd get the guy to say what he wants him to say.

So much for your attempt at a point while you implicitly defend torture.

It was a joke, lighten up.
 
Originally posted by: woodie1
How could George (I carried one State) McGovern be wrong on anything.

George Stanley McGovern, (born July 19, 1922) is a former United States Representative, Senator, and Democratic presidential nominee. McGovern lost the 1972 presidential election in a landslide to incumbent Richard Nixon.

McGovern, a World War II combat veteran, was most noted for his opposition to the Vietnam War. He is currently serving as the United Nations global ambassador on hunger.

Mr McGovern has pretty good credentials what are yours?
 
In somewhat irony, Richard Nixon won in 1972 by opposing McGovern's peace plan for Vietnam,
and shortly after winning the election, adopted the McGovern peace plan, but did rename it peace with honor. Only to be forced to resign for other devious reasons.

Nixon is a lasting shame on America, McGovern will stand the test of time.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
In somewhat irony, Richard Nixon won in 1972 by opposing McGovern's peace plan for Vietnam,
and shortly after winning the election, adopted the McGovern peace plan, but did rename it peace with honor. Only to be forced to resign for other devious reasons.

Nixon is a lasting shame on America, McGovern will stand the test of time.

The American people can be kind of idiotic at times (2000 being one, 2004 another).

The election of 1968 has no shortage of idiocy - including our own democratic president's, Johnson's, friendliness to the Nixon campaign at the expense of his own vice-president.

It takes understanding the public's thinking at the time - many historians write the public was disapproving of Humphrey not adequately distancing himself from the Vietnam war, but how ironic is it for them to 'oppose' the war for that reason by voting against Humphrey, when that means a vote for Nixon, who was so much worse on the war? Not everyone is aware there's evidence suggesting Nixon *sabotaged* the US peace talks in 1968 to help his election chances by heightening the US dissatisfaction with the democrats. Of course, Nixon also ran on the amazing 'secret plan' to end the war, which appears to have been a bizarre policy to try to get the North Vietnamese to make concessions by fooling them into thinking Nixon was mentally unstable and ready to use nuclear weapons (it didn't work).

Was the close vote for Nixon in 1968 a vote against the war, by being a vote against the administration whose war it was with Nixon promising to end it - or was it a vote for the war, with Nixon to the right of Humphrey - or some combination of both, the way some people voted for Bush in 2000 because of what he said, about a 'humble foreign policy', and others for precisely the opposite reason, expecting him to be willing to use force for our interests, and saw his words as blather to get elected, like 'compassionate conservative'?

But the re-election of Nixon in 1972 is even harder to explain, other than by confronting some ugly truths about our society. Nixon had failed to end the war, and had escalated it in areas; the public wasn't praising that. He hadn't done a lot to be seen as admirable in our policy, but yet the public was willing to say 'four more years'. If we ever want to improve our political culture, to reduce the chances of electing a bad president, I think one good place to look for lessons is in why the nation re-elected Nixon in 1972.

The thing most often pointed to as some great achievement is his going to Red China; few are aware of the history on that issue. When JFK was elected, Eisenhower told him he'd avoid public criticism of Kennedy's policies, with one exception - if Kennedy recognized China, he'd come out publically against him, at a time when Eisenhower was well respected (he could have easily defeated JFK in 1960 had he been allowed to run). But when Eisenhower's vice-president does the same thing a few years later, it's a great act.

In hindsight, I see at least two questions to ask about the China visit by Nixon:

One, was how much of the visit was simply for domestic political needs, as opposed to 'good policy', and how dangerous it is for our policies to be driven by those domestic politics (other examples include the Vietnam war, and the continued Cuban sanctions under discussion in another thread; it's well-known how wars can serve domestic politics).

Second, is the question about why the 'far right' was so able to construct a phony issue around anti-communism, such that an American political cliche is 'only Nixon could have gone to China', meaning that democratic presidents were too 'suspect' in their agendas to trust with establishing relations with a communist enemy, and we needed someone who had 'established anti-communist credentials' like Nixon to 'trust' that if he did it, then it must be safe for our nation.

Of course, what have learned later is that Nixon's motives can be far from trusted, even if their flaw was not in 'selling out' to the communists. What a misguided culture that was.

Again, it's dangerous for our culture when a politician can gain power - as Joe McCarthy also did - with the public being blind to their flaws, because they're 'anti-someone'.

The republicans have long run on that sort of misguided platform; later campaigns were in no small part over issues like 'if you don't like violent black criminals like Willie Horton, then vote for republicans, because democrats won't pander over the racism the way we will' - and of course, the real campaign issues over things like the republican's unstated policies to have huge debts for corrupt political spending carried no weight in the election.

These examples go to show how broken our political process is, where it's almost a crap shoot in that the important issues are largely left to the side, and you hope for the best.

It doesn't help that it's pretty terrifying to see how broken it is, and a lot easier to simply want to think that oh, no, it's a wonderful system where the issues drive the best pick.

That line of thinking lacks the benefit of being true, but has the benefit of helping people sleep at night with smiles. But the bad policies are starting to expose that, aren't they?
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Go ahead and list the actions Bush has done that are unconstitutional as ruled by the SCOTUS. Go ahead. Unless, of course, you think you are more of an authority on Constitutionality than SCOTUS.

I think you'll need a notepad the size of a pin head for that list. Thanks for playing.

That wasn't hard. Hamdi v. Rumsfeld was action that Bush undertook that was unconstitutional... ie. indefinitely holding a US citizen without trial.

You really walked right into that one.

Hey...psst...Rummy and Bush are actually two seperate people!

/gasp!

OK...still waiting for that list....
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Says who? Says you? Guess what sparky. It doesnt matter if Patton himself said its torture. Until it's ruled illegal in USSC it isnt. Move the fuck on.

Your understanding of the law leaves a lot to be desired. The Supreme Court does not need to rule something illegal for it to be illegal. That's what all those other courts are for, you know? Waterboarding is already illegal and a war crime through established US legal precedent in the conviction of Yukio Asano. This has been covered on here many times.

Wow. Yer purty smart wit da law too! In the case you mentioned, you failed to mention the complete torture conviction (what a suprise)...waterboarding was listed, but I guess the other indictments didnt contribute?

The charges of Violation of the Laws and Customs of War against Asano also included "beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward

Wise up sparky.
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Does anybody believe that two Al Qaeda members could have been tortured by the CIA without Presidential approval?

My understanding is that many were briefed on the methods used, including Dem Congresspersons who now feign outrage.

Your phrasing presupposes that waterboarding and other methods are "torture" under US law. A fact I do not believe to have been established.



If members of Al Qaeda were tortured by the CIA and the President didn't know about it, shouldn't such a President be impeached?

I don't see why. A President is neither omnicient or omnipresent. I have to believe that many things occur within the CIA, or are done by their operatives, without knowlegde of their superiors.

Fern

There is no doubt at all that water boarding is torture. No doubt at all. I also have no doubt that many things occur within the CIA without knowledge of superiors. I believe that when one of them is torture the President should be impeached. His desk is where the responsibility lies and where the buck stops. So your two pronged refutation of my argument is wrong on two counts, in my opinion.

Says who? Says you? Guess what sparky. It doesnt matter if Patton himself said its torture. Until it's ruled illegal in USSC it isnt. Move the fuck on.

It doesn't matter what Patton or the Supreme Court says, it is torture and if I could get you on a waterboard I could have you admit it in about a minute, you over-intellecutualized pin-head.

Oh ok. Per you then. Got that straightened out finally WHEW!

Hey...on a side note...are you actually the guy behind the curtian in Wizard of Oz?
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Harvey

OK. I've got the picture. You ARE one of the lying, murdering traitors. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbsup:

So your proof that Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq is that he believed what the CIA told him. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbsup:

So you have no way to refute any of the evidence I and others have posted, but you continue to deny, distract and divert attention from the truth. At least, we know you're not too stupid to attempt that so thanks again for confirming you're one of the lying, murdering Bushwhacko traitors.

Whats there to refute? All your shit is conjecture that you have yet to prove.
 
with 1 year left in office impeachment of Bush is NOT going to happen.

The morning AM radios show i listen to hand McGovern on this morning and i must say that guy is a complete tool. he should keep his political mouth shut and go golfing.
 
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Harvey

So you have no way to refute any of the evidence I and others have posted, but you continue to deny, distract and divert attention from the truth. At least, we know you're not too stupid to attempt that so thanks again for confirming you're one of the lying, murdering Bushwhacko traitors.

Whats there to refute? All your shit is conjecture that you have yet to prove.

You ass licking Bushwhacko neocon sycophants are so willfully blind that nothing would prove the guilt of your TRAITOR IN CHIEF and his criminal cabal of TRAITORS, MURDERERS and LIARS.

Go ahead with another meaningless denial. It doesn't matter what you say. No matter how many times you repeat the same lies and denials, it doesn't make them anymore true. Bush and Cheney and their entire administration are guilty of MURDER and TREASON and more. If you're still pimping for them in the face of all the evidence against them, YOU are a party to their MURDER and TREASON. :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:
 
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Does anybody believe that two Al Qaeda members could have been tortured by the CIA without Presidential approval?

My understanding is that many were briefed on the methods used, including Dem Congresspersons who now feign outrage.

Your phrasing presupposes that waterboarding and other methods are "torture" under US law. A fact I do not believe to have been established.



If members of Al Qaeda were tortured by the CIA and the President didn't know about it, shouldn't such a President be impeached?

I don't see why. A President is neither omnicient or omnipresent. I have to believe that many things occur within the CIA, or are done by their operatives, without knowlegde of their superiors.

Fern

There is no doubt at all that water boarding is torture. No doubt at all. I also have no doubt that many things occur within the CIA without knowledge of superiors. I believe that when one of them is torture the President should be impeached. His desk is where the responsibility lies and where the buck stops. So your two pronged refutation of my argument is wrong on two counts, in my opinion.

Says who? Says you? Guess what sparky. It doesnt matter if Patton himself said its torture. Until it's ruled illegal in USSC it isnt. Move the fuck on.

It doesn't matter what Patton or the Supreme Court says, it is torture and if I could get you on a waterboard I could have you admit it in about a minute, you over-intellecutualized pin-head.

Oh ok. Per you then. Got that straightened out finally WHEW!

Hey...on a side note...are you actually the guy behind the curtian in Wizard of Oz?

My wizardry is obviously real because it what arises out of your unconscious when you think of me. I didn't say I am a wizard, you did and the reason is clear also. I have what you lack, a brain, a heart, and courage.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Harvey

So you have no way to refute any of the evidence I and others have posted, but you continue to deny, distract and divert attention from the truth. At least, we know you're not too stupid to attempt that so thanks again for confirming you're one of the lying, murdering Bushwhacko traitors.

Whats there to refute? All your shit is conjecture that you have yet to prove.

You ass licking Bushwhacko neocon sycophants are so willfully blind that nothing would prove the guilt of your TRAITOR IN CHIEF and his criminal cabal of TRAITORS, MURDERERS and LIARS.

Go ahead with another meaningless denial. It doesn't matter what you say. No matter how many times you repeat the same lies and denials, it doesn't make them anymore true. Bush and Cheney and their entire administration are guilty of MURDER and TREASON and more. If you're still pimping for them in the face of all the evidence against them, YOUR are a party to their MURDER and TREASON. :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:

Jesus.... :roll:

what did they lie about and who did they murder?

 
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy

That wasn't hard. Hamdi v. Rumsfeld was action that Bush undertook that was unconstitutional... ie. indefinitely holding a US citizen without trial.

You really walked right into that one.

Hey...psst...Rummy and Bush are actually two seperate people!

/gasp!

OK...still waiting for that list....

Blackangst, you're probably best off quitting while you're less far behind. Hamdi v. Rumsfeld is actually Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and others... including Bush. Here, I found a nice little thing for you so that you can educate yourself. Explainer to the rescue! You could really save yourself a lot of embarassment if you just spent 5 minutes looking these things up before you shoot your mouth off.

As far as waterboarding goes, it would truly be an amazing argument for you to make that because someone was convicted of war crimes for torture involving several different kinds of abuse that the individual aspects of the indictment listed weren't themselves torture. I mean... think about how stupid that sounds. Of course the other things contributed to his conviction, but he was convicted of war crimes and the indictment listed the war crimes the government considered him guilty of... including waterboarding.
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
and the Clintons murdered Vince Foster.

BULLSHIT!!! Several high level investigations concluded that isn't true.

Subsequent investigations

There have been three official investigations into Foster's death, all of which concluded that he committed suicide.

The first was by the United States Park Police, in whose jurisdiction the original investigation fell. Due to Foster's position in the White House, the Federal Bureau of Investigation assisted in the investigation. Investigations by a coroner and Independent Counsel Robert B. Fiske also concluded that Foster had committed suicide. Conspiracy theories of a cover-up still persisted. After a three-year investigation, Whitewater independent counsel Kenneth Starr released a report also concluding that the death was a suicide.

Kenneth Starr is no friend of the Clintons. Prove your assinine assertion, or STFU!
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
BULLSHIT!!! Several high level investigations concluded that isn't true. Prove that, or STFU!

Come on Harvey. Those 'high level' investigations are full of holes. Foster's death will remain a mystery much like JFK's with plenty of speculation to go around.

And let's get out of the rathole. Stick to McGovern and Impeachment.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster

Come on Harvey. Those 'high level' investigations are full of holes. Foster's death will remain a mystery much like JFK's with plenty of speculation to go around.

Man, you are desperate. I added a link, including reference to Ken Starr's investigation of Foster's death. Do you really want to assert that the same putz who dug and dug and dug into both Clintons' affairs would hang his name on a report vindicating the Clintons in this matter if there were the slightest whisp of a hint they were involved? :roll:

And let's get out of the rathole. Stick to McGovern and Impeachment.

Hey!!! We agree! Bring on the impeachements. :thumbsup:

IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY, NOW!
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
and the Clintons murdered Vince Foster.

I'll see that and raise you:

He was probably just a worthless piece of shit, but Bush murdered 4000 of our troops in an illegal war for which he should not only be impeached, but tried for treason, no?
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Bush murdered 4000 of our troops in an illegal war for which he should not only be impeached, but tried for treason, no?

Yes and no. As of 1/7/08 11:37 pm EDT, the official toll of American troops killed in Iraq stands at 3,911 with tens of thousands more Americans wounded, scarred and disabled for life in the Bushwhackos' war of LIES in Iraq. 🙁
rose.gif
🙁

Don't rush them. They're only 89 short of 4,000, but even without reaching that tragic number, it should be enough to establish MURDER charges on either of two theories:

1. Callous, Reckless or Wanton Disregard or Depraved Indifference

Under Federal and most state statutes, one definition of murder is committing an act in callous, reckless or wanton disregard or depraved indifference for the safety of others that, in fact, causes the death of another. One foreseeable consequence of war is death... in fact, many deaths. For example, under New York State Law:

MURDER SECOND DEGREE
(A-I Felony)
(Depraved Indifference Murder)
PENAL LAW 125.25(2)
(Committed on or after Sept. 1, 1967)
(Revised December 12, 2006)
Under our law, a person is guilty of Murder in the Second Degree when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he or she recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person, and thereby causes the death of that person [or of a third person].

The deaths of every American in Iraq are direct, foreseeable consequences of the Bushwhackos' felonious LIES to Congress.

In fact, in his published statement, McGovern said:

All of this has been done without the declaration of war from Congress that the Constitution clearly requires, in defiance of the U.N. Charter and in violation of international law. This reckless disregard for life and property, as well as constitutional law, has been accompanied by the abuse of prisoners, including systematic torture, in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions of 1949.

All of the American casualties did not occur in one cataclysmic event. They happened over the years we since the Bushwhackos started their illegal war. If you question whether their actions constitute callous, reckless or wanton disregard or depraved indifference for the safety of others, it begs the question of how many times, and over what period, can one consider excusing those ongoing, repeated acts that continue to raise the number of dead and wounded Americans on a daily basis. At what point does it shock the conscience sufficiently to cross the threshold from being 3,684 cases of mere negligent homicide, which is another criminal offense? :shocked:

2. The Felony-Murder Rule

A RULE OF LAW that holds that if a killing occurs during the commission or attempted commission of a felony (a major crime), the person or persons responsible for the felony can be charged with murder.

Generally an intent to kill is not necessary for felony-murder. The rule becomes operative when there is a killing during or a death soon after the felony, and there is some causal connection between the felony and the killing.

The felony-murder rule originated in England under the COMMON LAW. Initially it was strictly applied, encompassing any death that occurred during the course of a felony, regardless of who caused it. Therefore, if a police officer attempting to stop a ROBBERY accidentally shot and killed an innocent passerby, the robber could be charged with murder.

Today most jurisdictions have limited the rule by requiring that the felony must be a dangerous one or that the killing is foreseeable, or both. Statutes that restrict the application of the rule to dangerous felonies usually enumerate the crimes. BURGLARY, KIDNAPPING, rape, and robbery are typical felonies that invoke the rule. Under a number of statutes, the felony must be a proximate cause of the death. In other words, the killing must have been a natural and direct consequence of the felony.

The Bushwhackos LIED TO CONGRESS to pimp their war, which is a felony even if it not done under oath. Starting any war is obviously dangerous, and as stated, death is a foreseeable consequence of war.

The deaths of every American in Iraq are direct, foreseeable consequences of the Bushwhackos' felonious LIES to Congress.

TREASON is another sustainable charge, but for different reasons.

In law, treason is the crime of disloyalty to one's nation. A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor. Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

The Constitution of the United States, Art. III defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort.

Here's another definition:

trea·son
(tre'z?n)
n.
  1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
  2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.
If you don't consider offering only a continuous string of ever changing lies as justification for taking the nation into a war that has squandered thousands of American lives and trillions of dollars in current and future debt, or illegal, unconstitutional unwarranted spying against American citizens to be a betrayal of trust or confidence, please tell us what it is. :shocked:

Article II, Section I of the U.S. Constitution provides that each president shall recite the following oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

The Vice President also swears of affirms a similar oath. Since the day Bush and Cheney took office, they and their henchmen have waged an aggressive war against the rights guaranteed to all American citizens under the U.S. Constitution.

How is that not a violation of their oath of office to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States?

How is that not a violation of allegiance toward one's country or the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies?

Even if you don't believe that in so doing, they have committed treason, they have most definitely violated their oaths of office. :|
 
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