General McChrystal humiliates Obama administration...again Update inside

[Throckmorton]

I guess then I'm not understanding why off the cuff remarks to a reporter from a magazine looking to increase their sales, made by senior staffers and not McChrystal himself, is getting the best person for the job shitcanned.

Shitcan the staffers.

Cutoff media contact since it's obvious sales are more important that National Security.

Why would one fire McChrystal though...especially as, they are speaking the truth.

Isn't this supposed to be Hope and Change, Transparency, etc?

I can understand there can be no question on who runs the show - Obama - but, McChrystal nor his staff's comments questioned that. Nor the direction Obama was having the show run.

Obama dropped this one.

Chuck

I agree, Obama shouldn't have fired McChrystal.

 

[Perknose]

War fighters are not likely to mince words nor gladly tolerate the political and diplomatic niceties found in Washington and attempted at Kabul. If anyone expects differently, they have lived too long as the metrosexuals they are.

"War fighters" are like "war dogs." They need to be kept in a short leash and taught strict obedience.

Peeing on their handler's boots will get them a crack on their snout each and every time . . . unless and until they learn.

And, again, lol a P&N's most overt metrosexual again playing the stupid-assed metrosexual card.

McChrystal fucked up. Stop romanticizing his fuck up. He forgot his place in the chain of command, and failed to instill appropriate verbal discipline in his underlings.

This is his failure as a leader. The onus rightly falls on him. He fucked up.

 

[Jaskalas]

Obviously, it hasn't happened... YET! Whether or not it happens doesn't change the fact that your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal committed some of the most heinous felonies ever perpetrated against the United States of America and the world.

Does it break your heart to know that Obama willfully continues all those crimes to date?

 

[mav451]

Lol and as I guessed before the presser, Obama is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Ok, carry on guys.

 

[chucky2]

Does it break your heart to know that Obama willfully continues all those crimes to date?

Don't worry, when the polling gets bad around election time, there'll be rumors 'leaked' to media, heck, even 'efforts' by some in Congress to re-hash the 'Bush&Co' topics the BDS'r crowd froths over.

Nothing like firing up the base and trying to woo the Undecided back to the left side of the fence.

Remember just a short while ago the HC bill debacle?

Look how much time, even on P&N, it's getting.

Now go out another year or two.

Yeah, that's how short the publics attention span is.

Chuck

 

[PJABBER]

"War fighters" are like "war dogs." They need to be kept in a short leash and taught strict obedience.

Peeing on their handler's boots will get them a crack on their snout each and every time . . . unless and until they learn.

I bet you would have been on Patton's case as well.

As history has shown, war fighters are seldom accepted comfortably in peacetime but when the time comes they are in their element and should be let on a very long leash. Even more so someone like McChrystal that combines brilliance and the aggressiveness to bring a fight to an uncompromising enemy.

And, again, lol a P&N's most overt metrosexual again playing the stupid-assed metrosexual card.

I promise to refer to pansy metrosexuals when appropriate. More so now that I know you are incensed by my use of that oh so apropos term.

McChrystal fucked up. Stop romanticizing his fuck up. He forgot his place in the chain of command, and failed to instill appropriate verbal discipline in his underlings.

This is his failure as a leader. The onus rightly falls on him. He fucked up.

Honestly, I can, and have, overlooked guys letting off steam in more extreme ways than the article recounts so long as they get a difficult and dangerous job done. I would even buy the first round, and have, to expedite the decompression. But if it is your personal style to keep the petits fours and insist on an elevated pinky, well, let's just leave it at stylistic differences.

Believe me, most of the military has gone politically correct. The drinking and cursing of the Army that I grew up in in the latter part of the 70's was mostly frowned on by the 80's, mostly for the better. But, the niceties are not always the way of those who must actually inflict violence as a profession, especially those who do so up close and personal, meaning Army and Marine combat units.

Special operations forces are much more likely to be engaged on a daily basis in death dealing and that, too, draws personalities that are a bit less restrained in expressing opinions about matters that certainly do affect their ability to do the job and certainly affect their likelihood of surviving to do it again the next day or night.

I see no insubordination nor do I see any resistance to the extraordinarily difficult mission Team America is charged with in the article.

They were brought in as a turnaround team, to prosecute a war and to establish an environment where the diplomats and the USAID and the PRTs can function. I see warriors bothered by ineffectiveness and others' insufficient dedication to the task at hand. I would expect nothing less and I would not expect them to be little drones reading off some politically correct script such as may be found in the ivied halls at Swarthmore.

 

[Harvey]

Obviously, it hasn't happened... YET! Whether or not it happens doesn't change the fact that your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal committed some of the most heinous felonies ever perpetrated against the United States of America and the world.

Does it break your heart to know that Obama willfully continues all those crimes to date?

You could say that, but the part that "breaks my heart" is that, in not prosecuting the Bushwhackos for their heinous crimes, our once proud, once honorable, once respected nation is failing to live up to the principles of law annunciated in our Constitution and the words inscribed above the west portico of the Supreme Court.

To whatever extent Obama and his administration are found to have committed those crimes or others, I would favor similar investigation and prosecution.

Don't worry, when the polling gets bad around election time, there'll be rumors 'leaked' to media, heck, even 'efforts' by some in Congress to re-hash the 'Bush&Co' topics the BDS'r crowd froths over.

Nothing like firing up the base and trying to woo the Undecided back to the left side of the fence.

Leave it to another of the forum right wingnuts to dredge up the long discedited term, BDS, concocted by the long discredited right wingnut hack, Charles Krauthammer. 🙄

 

[Perknose]

I bet you would have been on Patton's case as well.

My Uncle Ed was a oft decorated WWII combat vet who made his post war career as an ATF agent. I knew none of this for the longest time, because, like a true combat vet, he never talked about it.

He fought under Patton through the Italian campaign, a fact I only discovered when, as a kid, I was over his house on a Sunday afternoon while a Phillies rain out brought a change to a WWII documentary.

The film showed Patton grandly riding into an Italian town at the head of his force.

My Uncle EXPLODED, and used extremely "salty" language in calling Patton just about every name in the book. It was, in fact, the only time I ever saw him so much as raise his voice, let alone curse!

He said the film was a staged, pos LIE, that he knew because he and his men had taken that town the day before, and that ALL the men under his command hated Patton with a passion for being the celebrity cowboy, publicity hungry POSEUR who never gave a true shit about his soldiers that Paton in fact was.

So, yeah, you metrosexual REMF, I probably would have been on Patton's case as well.

I promise to refer to pansy metrosexuals when appropriate. More so now that I know you are incensed by my use of that oh so apropos term.

The term itself bothers me not one whit. Some people simply are metrosexuals. What else should we call you?

It's just when an overt metrosexual like you attempts to hypocritically use the term in the dishonest pejorative against our CIC that I see red.

 

[K1052]

There were a couple of incidents prior to this that probably should have caused him to be kept him at most running JSOC, if not maneuvered into a lame duck position and retired a few years later.
US Presidents generally don't like to be embarrassed in the press by their generals. Not exactly a news flash. He already stuck his foot in it once and was given a pass.

That said, Afghanistan is unwinnable since the populace has less than zero interest in what we're trying to do. When you're involved in a country that in every metric makes Iraq look like the model of progress it's time to cut losses.

 

[marincounty]

We have civilian leadership of the military in this country, too bad McChrystal forgot that.
This guy may have been an effective military leader, but he was a loose cannon.
Beyond his men's stupid comments about the civilian leadership he was involved in some other unsavory actions.
McChrystal's Zarqawi unit, Task Force 6-26, became well-known for its interrogation methods, particularly at Camp Nama, where it was accused of abusing detainees. After the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal became public in April 2004, 34 members of the task force were disciplined
McChrystal was also criticized for his role in the aftermath of the 2004 death by friendly fire of Ranger and former professional football player Pat Tillman. Within a day of Tillman's death, McChrystal was notified that Tillman was a victim of fratricide. Shortly thereafter, McChrystal was put in charge of paperwork to award Tillman a posthumous Silver Star for valor. On April 28, 2004, six days after Tillman's death, McChrystal approved a final draft of the Silver Star recommendation and submitted it to the acting Secretary of the Army, even though the medal recommendation deliberately omitted any mention of friendly fire, included the phrase "in the line of devastating enemy fire," and was accompanied by fabricated witness statements. On April 29, McChrystal sent an urgent memo warning White House speechwriters not to quote the medal recommendation in any statements they wrote for President Bush because it "might cause public embarrassment if the circumstances of Corporal Tillman's death become public." McChrystal was one of eight officers recommended for discipline by a subsequent Pentagon investigation but the Army declined to take action against him.

He should have been severely reprimanded for his involvement in the pathetic Pat Tillman case, maybe it would have saved his career. There are other regrettable incidents he was involved in, they aren't listed in the wikipedia article but were detailed by a guy on CNN yesterday.

 

[Craig234]

We have civilian leadership of the military in this country, too bad McChrystal forgot that.
This guy may have been an effective military leader, but he was a loose cannon.
Beyond his men's stupid comments about the civilian leadership he was involved in some other unsavory actions.
McChrystal's Zarqawi unit, Task Force 6-26, became well-known for its interrogation methods, particularly at Camp Nama, where it was accused of abusing detainees. After the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal became public in April 2004, 34 members of the task force were disciplined
McChrystal was also criticized for his role in the aftermath of the 2004 death by friendly fire of Ranger and former professional football player Pat Tillman. Within a day of Tillman's death, McChrystal was notified that Tillman was a victim of fratricide. Shortly thereafter, McChrystal was put in charge of paperwork to award Tillman a posthumous Silver Star for valor. On April 28, 2004, six days after Tillman's death, McChrystal approved a final draft of the Silver Star recommendation and submitted it to the acting Secretary of the Army, even though the medal recommendation deliberately omitted any mention of friendly fire, included the phrase "in the line of devastating enemy fire," and was accompanied by fabricated witness statements. On April 29, McChrystal sent an urgent memo warning White House speechwriters not to quote the medal recommendation in any statements they wrote for President Bush because it "might cause public embarrassment if the circumstances of Corporal Tillman's death become public." McChrystal was one of eight officers recommended for discipline by a subsequent Pentagon investigation but the Army declined to take action against him.

He should have been severely reprimanded for his involvement in the pathetic Pat Tillman case, maybe it would have saved his career. There are other regrettable incidents he was involved in, they aren't listed in the wikipedia article but were detailed by a guy on CNN yesterday.

I read today that something like six weeks after he did the Tillman coverup, he was promoted to Major General and was a 'favorite of Bush and Rumsfeld' for getting around rules.

 

[KK]

McChrystal fucked up. Stop romanticizing his fuck up. He forgot his place in the chain of command, and failed to instill appropriate verbal discipline in his underlings.

This is his failure as a leader. The onus rightly falls on him. He fucked up.

What I don't understand is that he's been in the military what, 35 years or so. I can't believe he just up and forgot where his place was unless he's a total dipshit, in which case he shouldn't be in the position he was in in the first place. So that leads me be believe he knew what was going to happen and wanted it to happen. As to why, I dunno. I'd like to think its because he's tired of the failed Obama's foreign policies, but I don't know.

 

[Zebo]

Even more so someone like McChrystal that combines brilliance and the aggressiveness to bring a fight to an uncompromising enemy.
.

Fail. Isnt Stan the same guy that says keep your weapons unchamberd in a war zone? Read up on how Khan conquered Afghanistan. Just about the exact opposite of COIN.

 

[K1052]

What I don't understand is that he's been in the military what, 35 years or so. I can't believe he just up and forgot where his place was unless he's a total dipshit, in which case he shouldn't be in the position he was in in the first place. So that leads me be believe he knew what was going to happen and wanted it to happen. As to why, I dunno. I'd like to think its because he's tired of the failed Obama's foreign policies, but I don't know.

I doubt it, he pretty much got his way with what he wanted to do in Afghanistan and it hasn't yielded results (not that I think anything politically acceptable really can).

 

[Zebo]

, like a true combat vet, he never talked about it.

No they didn't talk about because they killed ever mofo they saw and felt bad afterwords and it is not something you discuss in polite company.

 

[Craig234]

Fail. Isnt Stan the same guy that says keep your weapons unchamberd in a war zone? Read up on how Khan conquered Afghanistan. Just about the exact opposite of COIN.

Yes, you see nothing wrong with Khan's methods. You would make someone fine to demonstrate them on.

 

[Chaotic42]

He should resign, but remember that all generals are politicans, especially in peace time. He shouldn't appolgize unless he really thinks he was wrong.

 

[Zebo]

Yes, you see nothing wrong with Khan's methods. You would make someone fine to demonstrate them on.

I never made a moral judgment. War is terrible but I'd play to win not waste. I'd study winners not losers. If I didnt think I could use winner methods I sure as shit wouldn't follow loser methodology I'd stay at home. Like we should have. Your welcome to try but don't be surprised if I play for keeps like prison fight. Until you start I'm cool with whatever you think.

 

[PJABBER]

My Uncle Ed was a oft decorated WWII combat vet who made his post war career as an ATF agent. I knew none of this for the longest time, because, like a true combat vet, he never talked about it.

So, you, yourself, can claim no special insight into the military other than what you glean from a relative that served in WWII. Yet you feel free to comment that the serving military must be leashed like dogs?

ALL the men under his command hated Patton with a passion for being the celebrity cowboy, publicity hungry POSEUR who never gave a true shit about his soldiers that Paton in fact was.

LOL, one man's opinion does not exactly reflect that of thousands of others. Patton was both loved and hated by the troops he led. He was absolutely feared by those he fought and destroyed. Like McChrystal, he was relieved of command as a result of a PR faux pas. Patton was re-instated as a combat commander as the war progressed. In today's political climate, will we see McChrystal return should he be needed elsewhere? Maybe this is a ploy to keep McChrystal available for a fight against Iran, like Patton was held back from D-Day as a misdirection for the Germans? Nah, this White House is not that crafty in that way.

So, yeah, you metrosexual REMF, I probably would have been on Patton's case as well.

REMF? :awe: A term you learned from Uncle Ed? I was XO of an airborne training company for a time, but, other than the required training schools, I never did much time in support. Civil affairs might be considered rear echelon but as I was supporting missions of very active front line units of the XVIII Airborne Corps, USSOC and a couple of SF Groups I had more excitement than when I was in the infantry.

The term itself bothers me not one whit. Some people simply are metrosexuals.

You?

What else should we call you?

How about "sir?" :awe: It's just a thing, I worked so hard to get that title, so I'd appreciate it, yes, thank you.

It's just when an overt metrosexual like you attempts to hypocritically use the term in the dishonest pejorative against our CIC that I see red.

LOL, I may have a certain je ne sais quoi but I don't think anyone who knows me would consider me a metrosexual type no matter how much I like good wine, good food and shooting guns. More of Ted Nugent type by way of the corporate boardroom,that's me.

FWIW, I served under both Carter and Reagan as my CinCs. One was a former nuclear sub driver and peanut farmer and the other an actor. I supported Carter at first as I couldn't imagine someone who worked for Rickover as being that stupid, but I was wrong. Reagan couldn't do any wrong after l lived through the Carter malaise.

As a company and battalion level officer and even when supporting division, corps and group missions in CA I did not much give a damn about what was going on that far above my pay grade. Other than second guessing where the next deployment was, I had my hands full with training and leading troops.

As a CA adviser I had to be engaged fully with national command priorities, but then when I was attached to brigade operations and SF teams it was still always in a field environment with the fast movers.

Believe me, drinking myself silly sitting in an Irish tourist bar in Paris would have been one hell of a kick when I was making do with canteens of warm Kool Aid or frozen Sanka type instant coffee always made with iodine or chlorine treated water, if I was lucky enough to have the time to mix up a batch.

I expect it is very tough for troops that are as well connected as today's military are to read about the political shenanigans going on in DC. I almost never had much news of what was going on in DC or even above battalion or brigade level when I was on ops. Though I do distinctly remember listening to some really strong opinions from the Vietnam vets that were the officer and NCO corps in the first years I was in. Lots of foul opinions about Carter in the Tanker's Lounge at Knox and the I Bar at Benning as I recall, though those memories are truly faded by the level of intoxication that was permissible in those days. Anyway, it brings back further memories of Country's, which is where I generally preferred to eat out unless I was forced by protocol to go to the Officers Club. I also really enjoyed the mess hall food as we had some outstanding cooks serving the troops at Benning for those rare times we were not in the woods.

I can't say I was political in the least in those days, but if I were serving today I would probably have the same level of concern about the agenda of this President as I did under Carter. It is still a tossup as to which of those two winds up being viewed as the worst president of our lives.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

And that IS the point, isn't it? In case you forgot, there's a war going on, right now. You acknowledge Petraeus is qualified and experienced. In fact, he was McChrystal's direct superior until McChrystal was fired.

Thanks, I thought this was the case and was looking to confirm this myself. So, Petraeus is effectively getting demoted then?

EDIT: NM, I had time to read most of the thread and it was answered.

 

[PJABBER]

Fail. Isnt Stan the same guy that says keep your weapons unchamberd in a war zone? Read up on how Khan conquered Afghanistan. Just about the exact opposite of COIN.

From the article, the idea was to minimize civilian casualties by not engaging unless a positive ID could be made. Hell, I lectured the same tune when I was doing CA advisory to paratroopers in the late 80's. But the translation went through too many layers and it came out FUBAR by the time it got to the line units.

COIN is an evolutionary idea that sprang from lessons in Algeria, Malaysia and Vietnam, among other places. It is a work in progress as the environment and the enemy in each place is different. What may work in urban Baghdad will not with an illiterate population in Afghanistan. I sort of believe in the principles but I wonder whether we have the long term will to pursue such a drawn out approach.

The scorched earth approach to the hearts and minds of conquered populations has been proven over time. It works, actually works really fast if you apply sufficient force levels, but only so long as you intend to maintain control indefinitely to absorb the conquered populations into a greater hegemony.

The U.S. is not empire building nor does the announced strategy envision a presence even beyond next summer. So an alternative is demanded, ie propping up a marginal government in a place where a central government has never been effective and then hoping that they choose democratic liberalism over tribal authoritarianism mixed with radical, medieval theocracy.

If we could PLEASE for once decide to demand payment for our services, ie through US favorable mineral rights contracts we would have some purpose to committing the level of lives and resources we have. Otherwise, we should declare ourselves the winners and start deploying for the next war, ie Iran.

 

[woolfe9999]

What I don't understand is that he's been in the military what, 35 years or so. I can't believe he just up and forgot where his place was unless he's a total dipshit, in which case he shouldn't be in the position he was in in the first place. So that leads me be believe he knew what was going to happen and wanted it to happen. As to why, I dunno. I'd like to think its because he's tired of the failed Obama's foreign policies, but I don't know.

No, sadly, I think he just fucked up. It probably has to do with the fact that the reporter was embedded for a month and he let his guard down. An effective embedded reporter will try to "fit in," like one of boys, and pretty soon people start to forget he's a reporter. That's the reporter's objective. It doesn't make it less a fuck up, though. McCrystal should have known better.

- wolf

 

[woolfe9999]

I agree, Obama shouldn't have fired McChrystal.

I dunno, I'm on the fence with this. I had hoped they could work it out. Certainly Petreas was the right man to replace him.

Suppose someone under McCrystal had called McCrystal a "clown" in front of a reporter, and the reporter then printed the remark. Do you really think that person would stay in his post, no matter how good he was at his job? I suggest that the probability is at or very close to zero.

The trouble is you can't have people in the chain of command behaving like this. It sends the wrong message to your enemy and to the world at large. And Obama looks like a pussy who can't control his own officer core if he backs down. That perception is damaging to U.S. prestige, damaging to our relations with our allies, damaging to our relations with Kabul. It looks like we don't have a united front. Particularly when a war effort is troubled, which this one clearly is, I can understand Obama's decision.

Jabber says that Obama has a "prickly ego," but I suspect he knows damn well that this has nothing to do with prickly egos. This outcome has nothing to do one way or the other with whether Obama was personally offended or not. Even if the decision was wrong, and I'm not sure it was, it was a pragmatic decision.

If McCrystal really was the absolute best person for this job, then this will in some way further damage our effort there, but that basically is McCrystal's fault, so far as I'm concerned.

- wolf

 

[werepossum]

What I don't understand is that he's been in the military what, 35 years or so. I can't believe he just up and forgot where his place was unless he's a total dipshit, in which case he shouldn't be in the position he was in in the first place. So that leads me be believe he knew what was going to happen and wanted it to happen. As to why, I dunno. I'd like to think its because he's tired of the failed Obama's foreign policies, but I don't know.

For one thing, special forces ain't like regular military. Sergeants regularly tell captains why they (or more properly their plans) are full of shit, and captains expect and value it. It's not unusual for a team led by a captain to be opcon to a team led by a sergeant either, and the captain takes the sergeant's orders (after he too has his say.)

For another thing, McChrystal didn't dis his chain of command, but rather some attached idiots. His real sin was failing to jump all over his aides when they dissed Obama and his band of merry men, and Obama's most treasured thing is Obama (which is true of almost all politicians.) He'd have gotten away with it were it President Bush - and I'm sure he and his aides have said as bad about Bush and his team too - but you can't publicly disrespect a thin-skinned man when you fall in his chain of command. I honestly thought Obama would rise above it for once. I suppose that arguably Obama can't afford to rise above it, lest he be disrespected from all his military underlings and thus have his authority undercut. If you know the top dog doesn't respect the CIC, I suppose it's easier to rationalize warping the intent of your orders to what you think they should be, on the grounds that he is "forced" to issue those orders.

The lesson here is that the press, with very few exceptions, is your enemy if you are in the military. I don't think McChrystal wanted to have this happen, he just made the mistake of allowing a Rolling Stone reporter to hang around while they weren't on guard.

 

[Harvey]

My Uncle Ed was a oft decorated WWII combat vet who made his post war career as an ATF agent. I knew none of this for the longest time, because, like a true combat vet, he never talked about it.

So, you, yourself, can claim no special insight into the military other than what you glean from a relative that served in WWII. Yet you feel free to comment that the serving military must be leashed like dogs?

Speak for yourself. Unless you have a copy of Perknose's resume, you know nothing about him, his life or his experiences. I've already busted your chops in this thread for spewing bullshit without a clue about the facts. Maybe you should remember the words of Mark Twain:

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

I may have a certain je ne sais quoi...

You don't know what it is you have? 😕

Have you considered consulting a doctor? It could be acute aphtae epizooticae. 😱 😛