Budmantom
Lifer
It's the good war.
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General McChrystal humiliates Obama administration...again Update inside
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It's the good war.
Because we haven't achieved our objectives yet. There is no raping of natural resources that I'm aware of.
If by that you mean the war that wasn't started under false pretense like the Iraq war then yes.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
What point am I trying to demonstrate? The sniveling and whining of Americans about their president couldn't bother me any less.
Offhand though, the UN wouldn't have "won" Korea no matter who was in charge, and Lincoln winning the Civil War wasn't solely the result of who the one man in charge of it was. Talk about sophomoric. 🙄
Lemon law
Lifer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMHO, excellent post yllus.
Its far easier to look back at history with almost 20 20 hindsight, but when we live at a time when that history is being made, clarity of vision is far harder.
The facts that we basically know is that Nato is far from securing the Afghan occupation, McCrystal is no longer head general, and now Petraeus is.
Lemon law
Lifer
I will also post an article in the NYT, because as Nato transitions command to Petraeus, its not just Nato vs. the Taliban, because Pakistan may start aggressively pursuing their plan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/world/asia/25islamabad.html?ref=global-home
After all, sooner or later, in victory or defeat, Nato will leave Afghanistan, but Pakistan can't just remove itself thousands of miles from the problem because its stuck with the consequences.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/world/asia/25islamabad.html?ref=global-home
After all, sooner or later, in victory or defeat, Nato will leave Afghanistan, but Pakistan can't just remove itself thousands of miles from the problem because its stuck with the consequences.
dainthomas
Lifer
"Good" certainly wouldn't describe how it's run. But I think everyone supports getting rid of Al Qaeda.
PJABBER
Diamond Member
El Qaeda isn't a big factor in Afghanistan at the moment. The Taliban who hosted OBL, and might support a return of OBL or the like, are.
A positive spin as a result of Obama canning the one big time general that was willing to try it Obama's way, even if he may have despised Obama when he turned out to be an empty suit -
The Taliban have been laughing at this mess at the national command level. I hope they've enjoyed the moment as it looks like the rest of the summer fighting season is going to get a lot more interesting.
A positive spin as a result of Obama canning the one big time general that was willing to try it Obama's way, even if he may have despised Obama when he turned out to be an empty suit -
The Taliban have been laughing at this mess at the national command level. I hope they've enjoyed the moment as it looks like the rest of the summer fighting season is going to get a lot more interesting.
werepossum
Elite Member
Considering that Pakistan was the first (damned near only) country to recognize the Taliban as a legitimate government I'm not sure that works to our advantage. Still, one hopes.
Still, I have nothing negative to say about Petraeus, the guy's a superman. Although I have nothing bad to say about McChrystal either; both are heroes to me.
Lemon law
Lifer
Schamoz went on record as saying, "Because we haven't achieved our objectives yet. There is no raping of natural resources that I'm aware of."
Well then Schomoz just may not be very politically aware.
Nato being in Afghanistan and keeping Afghanistan in perpetual anarchy to some extent perfectly dovetails with Cheney style Iranian containment politics.
The facts are and remain, the Iranian future ambitions lie not in the mid-east, but instead in building a pipeline through Afghanistan and Pakistan to sell Iranian natural gas resources to energy hungry India. And the building of such a Iranian financed pipeline through Afghanistan would provide full employment to Afghan residents, defeat the anti modern Taliban, and bring modern Western style development to both Afghanistan and the tribal areas on Pakistan.
But no, can't allow anything good for Iran, because anything good for Iran is bad for the USA. Or at least until we can bring back the Shah. Best leave Afghanistan in perpetual anarchy and nip that idea in the bud. And even better, we get to complain that Afghanistan is a hopeless Islamic dunghill.
But now that we have recently discovered Afghanistan has other natural resources, let us have US interests exploit them for our benefits.
Well then Schomoz just may not be very politically aware.
Nato being in Afghanistan and keeping Afghanistan in perpetual anarchy to some extent perfectly dovetails with Cheney style Iranian containment politics.
The facts are and remain, the Iranian future ambitions lie not in the mid-east, but instead in building a pipeline through Afghanistan and Pakistan to sell Iranian natural gas resources to energy hungry India. And the building of such a Iranian financed pipeline through Afghanistan would provide full employment to Afghan residents, defeat the anti modern Taliban, and bring modern Western style development to both Afghanistan and the tribal areas on Pakistan.
But no, can't allow anything good for Iran, because anything good for Iran is bad for the USA. Or at least until we can bring back the Shah. Best leave Afghanistan in perpetual anarchy and nip that idea in the bud. And even better, we get to complain that Afghanistan is a hopeless Islamic dunghill.
But now that we have recently discovered Afghanistan has other natural resources, let us have US interests exploit them for our benefits.
werepossum
Elite Member
It's really too bad than only you and bin Ladin recognize what a great country Iran is. If only the rest of the world could be so enlightened, then we could usher in the age of flying unicorns and dinosaur rides.
You're conspiracy theory makes no sense. Iran doesn't need to build a pipeline through Afghanistan to Pakistan, they share a border and have already singed a deal to construct a pipeline. The US wouldn't need to invade and occupy Afghanistan to keep Iran out as the Taliban and Al-Qaeda hated them to begin with, if anything we opened a door for them to work together against us. Finally, we've known about the minerals since before the invasion and there's been no exploitation of them in the 8 years since we invaded and I doubt there will be when we leave.
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woolfe9999
Diamond Member
Not just him. I get all misty-eyed when I think about the greatness that is Iran and its enlightened government bringing "modern western style development" to poor Afghanistan.
Truly I do.
- wolf
Lemon law
Lifer
======================================================
I can only submit this link to somewhat discredit your contentions. Even if any Iranian to India pipeline by passes Afghanistan, Afghan political stability is still crucial.
http://www1.american.edu/ted/iranpipeline.htm
No shit its important, thats why we have thousands of soldiers fighting and dieing there right now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8572267.stm
Do you seriously think if Iran was going to sell gas to India they'd want to do it through Afghanistan? You'd have to be completely insane to think building and maintaining a pipeline through Afghanistan long term is sensible idea.
What the hell are you talking about?
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I'll tell you I'm in kindergarten if you'll tell me what the hell your post meant.
Nebor
Lifer
Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's on the record. You liberals seem to have a problem understanding that.
Jaskalas
Lifer
We're not willing to do what is necessary to kill the enemy, so that objective will never be met.
If our objective is to get our own people killed and rack up a body count for our own men, then sure, we're slowly advancing towards that one. 😡
Nebor
Lifer
COIN doesn't work. The article above hits the nail on the head when it says that we fail to acknowledge the cultural differences between Islamic society and the west. We can build all the infrastructure we want. We can establish "institutions" for the Afghans. The problem is they are culturally different than us in almost every way.
No one in the Afghan Army will even talk with us about budgets and planning for 2011, not just because they're painfully short sighted in every single thing they do, but because they don't think there will still be an Afghan Army once we leave.
No one in the Afghan Army will even talk with us about budgets and planning for 2011, not just because they're painfully short sighted in every single thing they do, but because they don't think there will still be an Afghan Army once we leave.
Lemon law
Lifer
First of all, it seems to me we don't have a clear understanding of why we are in Afghanistan, what constitutes winning or losing, as as Afghanistan becomes a moving target that evolves, we have not evolved with it. Nor are we willing to commit the resources its takes to win.
Its all well and fine to say we are in Afghanistan to get the very Ossama Bin Laden and Al-Quida that sucker punched the USA on 911. But even then, any Afghan connection is partly tangential, Ossama may have been in Afghanistan as it was planned, but support for the operation came from a pile of other countries, 911, was seemingly financed through Africa, some planning support came through Pakistan with some suspected Pakistani governmental complicity, and the 911 attack was itself implemented 100% in the USA.
Then we in the USA, in very undiplomatic terms, demanded the Taliban government of Afghanistan which we did not even recognize turn over Ossama Bin Laden to us yesterday, and then when they did not, we declared all Taliban members as criminals to be shot on sight. Even if 99.9999% of the larger Taliban had nothing to do with 911 and most probably would have said hell no if they could have stopped 911.
So here we are nearly nine years later, trying to militarily beat a political idea called the Taliban and almost certainly further away from victory now than when we started in
late 2001. And by my analysis of the situation, we are losing because we are doing everything possible to prove the Taliban ideas are what Afghanistan needs now and we in Nato are the rascals making the the stinking rotten Afghan situation even worse than it was before. In short, it takes real inspired stinking thinking for Nato to come in second place in a beauty contest with the Taliban. And when we distill the Taliban ideas to one of its cores, it boils down to throw the Western devils out. It worked against the Russians, and it now works against Nato.
Nor are we in Nato asking why the Taliban, an organization that only formed after the the Russians were forced ended up in control of most of Afghanistan by the time 911 occurred. We can understand that the Russians were forced out by Uncle Sammy arming Afghan terrorist, strike that freedom fighter, with effective air to ground missiles as our CIA trained them in insurgency tactics. After that, honor satisfied, and the Russian bears nose properly tweaked, the USA discarded Afghanistan as a no longer needed tool. All well and fine for the USA, but sadly, the 31 million Afghan population were stuck with the bloody subsequent events.
As all kinds of former freedom fighters then started squabbling among themselves, commenced a bloody civil war that was a perfect anarchy breeding grounds for corruption and the rise of war lord power bases. There weakness was that they were a very small part of the Afghan population, their strength was they had the organization and the weapons to control the 99% of the Afghan people.
And had not it been for a bunch of Afghan sons sent to Pakistani Madrasses during the civil war, returning home, and discovering their country was shit hole, the Taliban may have never have formed up. But like many home grown movements it grew like wildfire under the leadership of Mullah Omer. And please, don't get me wrong here, I am not glorifying the Taliban, I am simply noting historical facts. And with some help from the Pakistani ISI in terms of getting weapons, and the fact that the Taliban could be locally stronger than the Afghan war lords, the Taliban, using totally brutal tactics, soon were able to defeat the war lords and general corruption. And set up a Government that worked. IN terms of the Afghan people, they may have hated to the total reactionary ideas of the Taliban, and their disenfranchisement of females, but almost anything beats the anarchy and corruption of before.
So what did Nato do as its first acts, allied with the corrupt Northern alliance brought back corruption and anarchy, and has made Afghanistan into a total shooting gallery.
And then goes from place to place stirring up more violence and never stays long enough to control or stabilize what its gains.
Even today, the Afghan people want to prefer Nato to the Taliban, but after nine years of Nato tactics that only strengthen the Taliban cry of throw the Western devils out. Its hard to believe that Nato either cares about the Afghan people, is willing to commit to resources to win, has even a clue about what it takes to win, or can win at this point in time.
In my mind, job one is to reduce the overall Afghan violence level, and that means not shooting the Taliban on sight, in the hopes they will not shoot Nato on sight, and then working with local leaders to establish a government that works for the Afghan people.
Its all well and fine to say we are in Afghanistan to get the very Ossama Bin Laden and Al-Quida that sucker punched the USA on 911. But even then, any Afghan connection is partly tangential, Ossama may have been in Afghanistan as it was planned, but support for the operation came from a pile of other countries, 911, was seemingly financed through Africa, some planning support came through Pakistan with some suspected Pakistani governmental complicity, and the 911 attack was itself implemented 100% in the USA.
Then we in the USA, in very undiplomatic terms, demanded the Taliban government of Afghanistan which we did not even recognize turn over Ossama Bin Laden to us yesterday, and then when they did not, we declared all Taliban members as criminals to be shot on sight. Even if 99.9999% of the larger Taliban had nothing to do with 911 and most probably would have said hell no if they could have stopped 911.
So here we are nearly nine years later, trying to militarily beat a political idea called the Taliban and almost certainly further away from victory now than when we started in
late 2001. And by my analysis of the situation, we are losing because we are doing everything possible to prove the Taliban ideas are what Afghanistan needs now and we in Nato are the rascals making the the stinking rotten Afghan situation even worse than it was before. In short, it takes real inspired stinking thinking for Nato to come in second place in a beauty contest with the Taliban. And when we distill the Taliban ideas to one of its cores, it boils down to throw the Western devils out. It worked against the Russians, and it now works against Nato.
Nor are we in Nato asking why the Taliban, an organization that only formed after the the Russians were forced ended up in control of most of Afghanistan by the time 911 occurred. We can understand that the Russians were forced out by Uncle Sammy arming Afghan terrorist, strike that freedom fighter, with effective air to ground missiles as our CIA trained them in insurgency tactics. After that, honor satisfied, and the Russian bears nose properly tweaked, the USA discarded Afghanistan as a no longer needed tool. All well and fine for the USA, but sadly, the 31 million Afghan population were stuck with the bloody subsequent events.
As all kinds of former freedom fighters then started squabbling among themselves, commenced a bloody civil war that was a perfect anarchy breeding grounds for corruption and the rise of war lord power bases. There weakness was that they were a very small part of the Afghan population, their strength was they had the organization and the weapons to control the 99% of the Afghan people.
And had not it been for a bunch of Afghan sons sent to Pakistani Madrasses during the civil war, returning home, and discovering their country was shit hole, the Taliban may have never have formed up. But like many home grown movements it grew like wildfire under the leadership of Mullah Omer. And please, don't get me wrong here, I am not glorifying the Taliban, I am simply noting historical facts. And with some help from the Pakistani ISI in terms of getting weapons, and the fact that the Taliban could be locally stronger than the Afghan war lords, the Taliban, using totally brutal tactics, soon were able to defeat the war lords and general corruption. And set up a Government that worked. IN terms of the Afghan people, they may have hated to the total reactionary ideas of the Taliban, and their disenfranchisement of females, but almost anything beats the anarchy and corruption of before.
So what did Nato do as its first acts, allied with the corrupt Northern alliance brought back corruption and anarchy, and has made Afghanistan into a total shooting gallery.
And then goes from place to place stirring up more violence and never stays long enough to control or stabilize what its gains.
Even today, the Afghan people want to prefer Nato to the Taliban, but after nine years of Nato tactics that only strengthen the Taliban cry of throw the Western devils out. Its hard to believe that Nato either cares about the Afghan people, is willing to commit to resources to win, has even a clue about what it takes to win, or can win at this point in time.
In my mind, job one is to reduce the overall Afghan violence level, and that means not shooting the Taliban on sight, in the hopes they will not shoot Nato on sight, and then working with local leaders to establish a government that works for the Afghan people.
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