General Blames Gays for Bosnian Genocide

[JohnOfSheffield]

Surprise.

Europe and its allies are immune to international law. It is a master-race continent after all.

At this point in time, no.

There are others, not that you'd care, you'd love to eradicate every Jew from the face of the earth, wouldn't you?

 

[Noobtastic]

At this point in time, no.

There are others, not that you'd care, you'd love to eradicate every Jew from the face of the earth, wouldn't you?

do you actually believe the shit you say.

 

[Ronstang]

You would think having gays would be of great tactical advantage. While the poofs were all dancing around in their accessorized uniforms, limp wrists a fly, the enemy would be laughing hysterically and thus be easy pickings for the straight soldiers.

 

[sandorski]

Why would Gays facilitate the Genocide of potential Sex Partners?

Does not compute.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

do you actually believe the shit you say.

When it comes to you and the forced spread of hatred you spew, yes, i do.

I do belive that you are a Nazist sympathiser, there is no other reason to offend every other nation as you have done on behalf of Israel, you must REALLY hate Israel to spew this sheit.

Remember your comments about Europe, the UK, and 9/11? All used to incite hatred towards Israel.

If that was not meant in that way then you are fucking daft.

So are you daft or a Nazi?

 

[zsdersw]

You would think having gays would be of great tactical advantage. While the poofs were all dancing around in their accessorized uniforms, limp wrists a fly, the enemy would be laughing hysterically and thus be easy pickings for the straight soldiers.

Just so you know, not all (or even most) of us are that way.

 

[kage69]

I saw this one stand up comedian on Comedy Central once, Louis something, do a good bit on gays in the military.

His angle was, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I have no problem with gays manning the trenches with straights. I don't have a problem with them looking at my butt. In fact, I want them to think my butt is pretty darn cute - cuz they'd be all "They shot Louis?!" *mimes gay soldiers going Rambo with machine guns*

 

[kage69]

I think that this is just part of the campaign of keeping the Dutch involvement in the massacre out of the public consciousness - instead he's trying to shift onto homosexuals.

So, help me out here - a former US general is trying to cover up alleged Dutch involvement in a massacre by falsely representing his Dutch counterpart laying blame on homosexual soldiers, all to spare the public consciousness from embarrassment?

Feel free to elaborate with a link or two. I haven't had too much caffeine this morning so I'll admit I'm not the sharpest end user at the moment, but I'm still missing where soldiers being gay caused thousands of Bosnian deaths.

 

[kage69]

Just so you know, not all (or even most) of us are that way.

You know, you could have gone BoberFett on him and gotten some PC panties up in a bunch, but you didn't. And I commend you for that.

 

[FaaR]

If your state ever allows them to marry NONE of your garage door openers will work.

...But on the other hand they will LOOK simply fabulous, and will go on to have carreers in fashion design and interior decoration, thus bringing extra income to the household.

 

[Ronstang]

Just so you know, not all (or even most) of us are that way.

I know, it was a joke.

 

[CanOWorms]

So, help me out here - a former US general is trying to cover up alleged Dutch involvement in a massacre by falsely representing his Dutch counterpart laying blame on homosexual soldiers, all to spare the public consciousness from embarrassment?

Yes. It's a very embarrassing situation for the US - another European ally involved in yet another ethnic cleansing situation. They are trying to paint the Dutch military as a type of victim rather than war criminals.

Feel free to elaborate with a link or two. I haven't had too much caffeine this morning so I'll admit I'm not the sharpest end user at the moment, but I'm still missing where soldiers being gay caused thousands of Bosnian deaths.

You need more coffee. They are trying to switch public awareness of the involvement of the Dutch away from their complicity in an ethnic cleansing. They're trying to make Srebrenica about gay soldiers rather than an orchestrated ethnic cleansing.

 

[cirrrocco]

I think the good general is gay and hasnt reconciled with his sexuality.

 

[Red Dawn]

I know, I'm a joke.

:thumbsup:

 

[kage69]

Yes. It's a very embarrassing situation for the US - another European ally involved in yet another ethnic cleansing situation.

Having torture programs exposed after telling the world we're the leader in human rights - that's embarrassment. Invading another country over "slam dunk" evidence, only to find out it was "damn bunk" instead? That's embarrassment. Having an independently operating ally who is alleged to have been involved in war crimes? Unfortunate, sure. Reprehensible? Time will tell. Embarrassing? Maybe if said soldiers were under our command at the time, otherwise no. It would be embarrassing if Americans were involved, or gave approval, certainly.

They are trying to paint the Dutch military as a type of victim rather than war criminals.

The "they" sounds more like a retired general trying to make a political point at home by lying about his former comrade in arms. Well, that and sounding like an idiot anyway. Still, I'm confused over how the issue of gay soldiers somehow can overshadow possible war crimes. It's like someone screaming "OMG, I think that guy over there just set this house on fire!" and a friend of that man saying "Yeah well it wasn't handicap accessible, sooo...." Talk about a lame cop out.

You need more coffee. They are trying to switch public awareness of the involvement of the Dutch away from their complicity in an ethnic cleansing. They're trying to make Srebrenica about gay soldiers rather than an orchestrated ethnic cleansing.

I'll need more than that to share this concept of embarrassment I suppose. Good to know you don't share his viewpoint though. After having come to grips with the embarrassment that is the US doing business with places like Pakistan, China, and Saudi Arabia, this angle of yours isn't one that I can share. No disrespect to the dead, but it seems like small potatoes insofar as the US is involved.

Gay or not, I'd like to see anyone involved with the Srebbrenica massacre face charges in The Hague.

 

[CanOWorms]

Having torture programs exposed after telling the world we're the leader in human rights - that's embarrassment. Invading another country over "slam dunk" evidence, only to find out it was "damn bunk" instead? That's embarrassment. Having an independently operating ally who is alleged to have been involved in war crimes? Unfortunate, sure. Reprehensible? Time will tell. Embarrassing? Maybe if said soldiers were under our command at the time, otherwise no. It would be embarrassing if Americans were involved, or gave approval, certainly.

It's embarassing because even with full knowledge of what the Dutch did, we continue to support them instead of actively opposing their agendas against minorities.

The "they" sounds more like a retired general trying to make a political point at home by lying about his former comrade in arms. Well, that and sounding like an idiot anyway. Still, I'm confused over how the issue of gay soldiers somehow can overshadow possible war crimes. It's like someone screaming "OMG, I think that guy over there just set this house on fire!" and a friend of that man saying "Yeah well it wasn't handicap accessible, sooo...." Talk about a lame cop out.

Most people don't know about the Dutch involvement in Srebrenica. Now, instead of the Dutch involvement with ethnic cleansing, it's now known for this general and his belief of gay Dutch soldiers PREVENTING a massacre, helping with the revisionist history that the Dutch were not complicit.

I'll need more than that to share this concept of embarrassment I suppose. Good to know you don't share his viewpoint though. After having come to grips with the embarrassment that is the US doing business with places like Pakistan, China, and Saudi Arabia, this angle of yours isn't one that I can share. No disrespect to the dead, but it seems like small potatoes insofar as the US is involved.

Gay or not, I'd like to see anyone involved with the Srebbrenica massacre face charges in The Hague.

There have been trials within the Dutch system in The Hague. However, European courts are not friendly to minority groups (especially ones they've tried to destroy) and thus they've had significant setbacks.

 

[kage69]

It's embarassing because even with full knowledge of what the Dutch did, we continue to support them instead of actively opposing their agendas against minorities.

Our ongoing relationships with China and Saudi Arabia make that pale in comparison, and somehow we haven't let the embarrassment hamper us in the least. We backed Saddam Hussein for years, turning a blind eye to all he did - what is it exactly about the Dutch that makes them different? What full knowledge? Has there been a US investigation into the massacre? Again, feel free to provide some support of your claims here.

Most people don't know about the Dutch involvement in Srebrenica. Now, instead of the Dutch involvement with ethnic cleansing, it's now known for this general and his belief of gay Dutch soldiers PREVENTING a massacre, helping with the revisionist history that the Dutch were not complicit.

First, an event isn't fully encapsulated by the last person to opine on it, doesn't work that way even with our horrible media establishment. Second, what are you talking about?? No one is doubting that a massacre occured - the story said nothing about anyone claiming that gay soldiers PREVENTED a massacre. The massacre happened. Our ex-general said it was the fault of gay Dutch soldiers, and btw the Dutch general I served with over there agreed with me. Dutch general says bullshit I said no such thing. Are we discussing the same story?!

 

[CanOWorms]

Our ongoing relationships with China and Saudi Arabia make that pale in comparison, and somehow we haven't let the embarrassment hamper us in the least. We backed Saddam Hussein for years, turning a blind eye to all he did - what is it exactly about the Dutch that makes them different? What full knowledge? Has there been a US investigation into the massacre? Again, feel free to provide some support of your claims here.

We have different viewpoints. I think that our relationships with our European allies pale in comparison to any relationships with China and Saudi Arabia.

As far as I know, there has been no US investigation into the Dutch activities. There is a Dutch investigation, as well as the investigations of numerous human rights groups and the survivors of the massacre.

First, an event isn't fully encapsulated by the last person to opine on it, doesn't work that way even with our horrible media establishment. Second, what are you talking about?? No one is doubting that a massacre occured - the story said nothing about anyone claiming that gay soldiers PREVENTED a massacre. The massacre happened. Our ex-general said it was the fault of gay Dutch soldiers, and btw the Dutch general I served with over there agreed with me. Dutch general says bullshit I said no such thing. Are we discussing the same story?!

The massacre happened, but Dutch involvement is routinely erased from discussion of it. This is just another attempt to paint the Dutch as victims rather than perpetrators of what happened in Srebrenica. The general is claiming that the Dutch failed in their duty because of gay soldiers. The Dutch didn't fail in their duty - they succeeded in what they wanted to do: participate in ethnic cleansing.

 

[freegeeks]

We have different viewpoints. I think that our relationships with our European allies pale in comparison to any relationships with China and Saudi Arabia.

As far as I know, there has been no US investigation into the Dutch activities. There is a Dutch investigation, as well as the investigations of numerous human rights groups and the survivors of the massacre.



The massacre happened, but Dutch involvement is routinely erased from discussion of it. This is just another attempt to paint the Dutch as victims rather than perpetrators of what happened in Srebrenica. The general is claiming that the Dutch failed in their duty because of gay soldiers. The Dutch didn't fail in their duty - they succeeded in what they wanted to do: participate in ethnic cleansing.

you are f***g pathetic in saying that the Dutch troops were actively involved in the massacre. The 400 lightly armed Dutch troops were surrounded by thousands of heavily armed serb troops. Dutchbat command made several request for air support against the advancing Serb troops which were denied, this was a failure of the international community to act, nothing more nothing less.

It's funny to see how morons here are berating all the time their most loyal ally, the Western-European countries. The Netherlands, France, Belgium, ... all have troops in Afghanistan fighting alongside their American brothers and taking casualties and all we get from the American public opinion is this message that we are cowards, it's really pathetic

 

[zsdersw]

You know, you could have gone BoberFett on him and gotten some PC panties up in a bunch, but you didn't. And I commend you for that.

Nah, that's "kid's table" bullshit.. 🙂 thanks

 

[kage69]

We have different viewpoints. I think that our relationships with our European allies pale in comparison to any relationships with China and Saudi Arabia.

As far as I know, there has been no US investigation into the Dutch activities. There is a Dutch investigation, as well as the investigations of numerous human rights groups and the survivors of the massacre.


The massacre happened, but Dutch involvement is routinely erased from discussion of it. This is just another attempt to paint the Dutch as victims rather than perpetrators of what happened in Srebrenica. The general is claiming that the Dutch failed in their duty because of gay soldiers. The Dutch didn't fail in their duty - they succeeded in what they wanted to do: participate in ethnic cleansing.

I think I understand your position now, even if I don't agree with it. Since you've been unwilling to share any sources which support your views, I spent some time poking around online to see what I could find. I found nothing to indicate Dutchbat sat by and watched the massacre transpire, turning a blind eye as it were. In fact, Dutchbat was engaged by Serb forces and returned fire, but the outposts they manned were overrun and many were taken prisoner. I have a hard time resolving the notion that these troops were somehow complicit, yet also had engaged Serbs to the point where they received casualties and were taken prisoner. If you want to talk of complicity, Greeks should be the first group mentioned here, not the Dutch. There wasn't a Dutch flag raised over the city after it was taken.

I don't buy the notion of US embarrassment here. If we're suffering this huge dose of embarrassment, then why did Congress pass Res. 199 in 2005 actually commemorating the 10 year anniversary of the massacre? Seems a little counterproductive to me.

Regardless, what has transpired recently that is relevant to Srebrenica which would cause a retired US general to opine on gay Dutch soldiers?

I can't find anything, but as I said earlier, we've just had our own round of politics over DADT within our own military. I see this as a case of an ex-general misrepresenting an ally in order to voice his convictions on the issue here at home. Basically, he's using the tragedy of Srebrenica to spook Americans into keeping the US military attached to DADT.

 

[CanOWorms]

you are f***g pathetic in saying that the Dutch troops were actively involved in the massacre. The 400 lightly armed Dutch troops were surrounded by thousands of heavily armed serb troops. Dutchbat command made several request for air support against the advancing Serb troops which were denied, this was a failure of the international community to act, nothing more nothing less.

Why is history revisionism so popular among Europeans? Do you honestly believe that crap?

The Dutch government actively sought out the assignment to gain prestige for its ridiculous Dutchbat. All it got was shame, disaster, and murder.

Even the Dutch-commissioned report on the incident claims complicity in the massacre.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2002/mz04_18.html

The report commissioned by the Dutch themselves, namely the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation and issued in The Hague, relates a sordid saga which hardly evokes what American wartime President Franklin D. Roosevelt called the "indomidable Dutch." Quite the opposite, the official inquiry concluded that the Netherlands military had betrayed the refugees handing them over in "full awareness that the fate of the men was uncertain."

their act of collusion in handing over the refugees was "tantamount to collaborating with ethnic cleansing."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,425024,00.html

Some of the Dutch United Nations soldiers who failed to prevent the massacre of Srebenica in July 1995 gave the Serbs a back-slapping welcome, handed over their uniforms and even actively helped to separate Bosnian men from their families, say relatives of the 8,000 men and boys who were murdered.

A group of Serbian soldiers ran across some Dutch troops – and the soldiers greeted one another happily. They threw their caps in the air and some even hugged one another.

Some of the Dutch troops even took off their uniforms – and Serbs then slipped them on.

The next day, the Dutch troops lined up with the Serbian Chetniks as if nothing had happened. The UN soldiers had helped to separate the Muslim men from their families. Zumra Sehomerovic saw her husband once more, standing in a ditch on the left side of the road. He was never seen again.

Picture of the Dutch commander sharing a toast with Mladic just before the massacre:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,grossbild-444963-425024,00.html

Was that a photoshop? The Dutch actively sought the assignment. They secluded the victims. They aided in the disaster.

Your right-wing Euronutjob beliefs fail when put in light of the facts.

It's funny to see how morons here are berating all the time their most loyal ally, the Western-European countries. The Netherlands, France, Belgium, ... all have troops in Afghanistan fighting alongside their American brothers and taking casualties and all we get from the American public opinion is this message that we are cowards, it's really pathetic

The world identifies the Dutch military as cowards. Srebrenica is active in everyone's minds. Even the Dutch despised the cowardly acts of their soldiers. Hopefully as the wound goes deeper into history they will recognize their complicity in the massacre.

The world is changing, and Europeans tend not to adapt to change very well. Obama has constantly snubbed the EU and European countries while trying to up US relationships with other countries. He knows that any so-called alliance is closing in on collapse.

 

[kage69]

Update to this story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100330/wl_afp/netherlandsusmilitarygaybosnia_20100330134449


"Sheehan said he was "sorry" for remarks made at a Senate hearing earlier this month where he argued against plans by President Barack Obama to end a ban on allowing gays to serve openly in the US military.

"The case in point that I'm referring to is when the Dutch were required to defend Srebrenica against the Serbs," he said at the time, referring to the Dutch UN peacekeeping force deployed to protect Bosnian Muslim civilians.

Sheehan claimed that Dutch leaders, including the former chief of staff of the Dutch army General Henk van den Breemen, had told him that the presence of gay soldiers had contributed to the fall of the enclave which led to the massacre of nearly 8,000 Muslim men and boys.

"To be clear, the failure on the ground in Srebrenica was in no way the fault of the individual soldiers," states Sheehan's letter, dated Monday and addressed to the now retired Van den Breemen.

"I am sorry that my recent public recollection of those discussions of 15 years ago inaccurately reflected your thinking on some specific social issues in the military," said the letter, a copy of which was given to AFP by the ministry.

"It is also regrettable that I allowed you to be pulled into a public debate."

Sheehan's statements had been described as "disgraceful" by Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende and "complete nonsense" by Van den Breemen, while the gay rights group Pink Army threatened to sue the ex-general unless he retracted."




So yeah, this was all about an old timer trying to fight the winds of change...

 

[zsdersw]

So yeah, this was all about an old timer trying to fight the winds of change...

Indeed.

 

[William Gaatjes]

you are f***g pathetic in saying that the Dutch troops were actively involved in the massacre. The 400 lightly armed Dutch troops were surrounded by thousands of heavily armed serb troops. Dutchbat command made several request for air support against the advancing Serb troops which were denied, this was a failure of the international community to act, nothing more nothing less.

Indeed this is the case. You are very right. I will expand the text for you.

The dutch army troopers called dutchbat where there to observe and guide. They where deliberately send with few troopers and light arms and not with proper equipped tanks and any other heavy artillery to not provoke the Bosnic Serbs and the bosnic muslims into a fight (UN mandate). The UN mandate was that the dutch would not intervene themselves, but ask for reinforcement. Dutchbat was not allowed according to later UN instructions to fire at the Bosnic Serbs. Now this is strange, because the mandate seemed to specify that when attacked , all means of force where allowed. Now why did dutchbat later get the order that they should not fire at the Bosnic Serbs ? Anyway, Dutchbat followed orders and in the army that is what you do, you have to follow orders. These orders came from the UN.
Dutchbat had asked for reinforcement but was indeed denied. The Bosnic Serbs could have their way and Dutchbat was not allowed to fight back and protect the Bosnic muslims even if they wanted too. If they would have engaged into a fight with the Bosnic Serbs they would have lost because they where few in number and only carried light arms. If they would have survived, they would have been brought to court for disobeying orders.
The dutch have been sold out. It was a sad day for a small country that history wise will help to bring and keep the peace but will not go to war them selves. The Netherlands have always been open to foreigners and as such welcomed liberal and moderate modern moslims, this gave The Netherlands a lot of goodwill. You know what i mean ? I think it smells fishy. Also because the Bosnic Serb Ratko Mladić did not share ay information about his intentions. It was expected that he would enforce genocide but nobody in the dutch government or the UN listened to the warnings of the dutch military intelligence service.

Another interesting point :
Did you know the international community donated 14 billion dollars in 2009 to Bosnia ?. The country still looks as bad as before. A very large part of the cities look like the fighting is still going on. Where did all those billions go too ? I and many people really would like to know, because we just do not know.

It's funny to see how morons here are berating all the time their most loyal ally, the Western-European countries. The Netherlands, France, Belgium, ... all have troops in Afghanistan fighting alongside their American brothers and taking casualties and all we get from the American public opinion is this message that we are cowards, it's really pathetic

Ask yourself if the part of the american public with these short sighted opinions get to see the same news we do. Wise People compare the news occasionally from abroad with the local news. But not all people are wise.
You cannot blame them... They do not know any better...

Besides, the general just wants to make money.