General Accuses Bush White House Of War Crimes

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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Nothing to see here; just more clear-cut evidence of cover-ups and 'buddy-system' justice from the Bush administration, DoD, down through our military chain-of-command. Even when torture, war crimes and unlawful detention are systematically implemented throughout our military, worst-case scenarios like the public-outing of Abu Ghraib resulted in a handful of arrests and low-level convictions. But the torture, war crimes and detentions continue under closer guard. And while our illegal activities continue under zero oversight or accountability, Bush has lawyers working night and day to keep their actions legal and those involved immune from prosecution.

Text

By Dan Froomkin
Wednesday, June 18, 2008; 12:44 PM

The two-star general who led an Army investigation into the horrific detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib has accused the Bush administration of war crimes and is calling for accountability.

In his 2004 report on Abu Ghraib, then-Major General Anthony Taguba concluded that "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees." He called the abuse "systemic and illegal." And, as Seymour M. Hersh reported in the New Yorker, he was rewarded for his honesty by being forced into retirement.

Now, in a preface to a Physicians for Human Rights report based on medical examinations of former detainees, Taguba adds an epilogue to his own investigation.

The new report, he writes, "tells the largely untold human story of what happened to detainees in our custody when the Commander-in-Chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture. This story is not only written in words: It is scrawled for the rest of these individual's lives on their bodies and minds. Our national honor is stained by the indignity and inhumane treatment these men received from their captors.

"The profiles of these eleven former detainees, none of whom were ever charged with a crime or told why they were detained, are tragic and brutal rebuttals to those who claim that torture is ever justified. Through the experiences of these men in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay, we can see the full-scope of the damage this illegal and unsound policy has inflicted --both on America's institutions and our nation's founding values, which the military, intelligence services, and our justice system are duty-bound to defend.

"In order for these individuals to suffer the wanton cruelty to which they were subjected, a government policy was promulgated to the field whereby the Geneva Conventions and the Uniform Code of Military Justice were disregarded. The UN Convention Against Torture was indiscriminately ignored. . . .

"After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts, and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."

Pamela Hess of the Associated Press has more on the report, which resulted from "the most extensive medical study of former U.S. detainees published so far" and "found evidence of torture and other abuse that resulted in serious injuries and mental disorders."
The War Council

So if war crimes were committed, who's responsible?

In today's installment of a major McClatchy Newspapers series on the U.S. detention system, Tom Lasseter writes: "The framework under which detainees were imprisoned for years without charges at Guantanamo and in many cases abused in Afghanistan wasn't the product of American military policy or the fault of a few rogue soldiers.

"It was largely the work of five White House, Pentagon and Justice Department lawyers who, following the orders of President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, reinterpreted or tossed out the U.S. and international laws that govern the treatment of prisoners in wartime, according to former U.S. defense and Bush administration officials.

"The Supreme Court now has struck down many of their legal interpretations. It ruled last Thursday that preventing detainees from challenging their detention in federal courts was unconstitutional.

"The quintet of lawyers, who called themselves the 'War Council,' drafted legal opinions that circumvented the military's code of justice, the federal court system and America's international treaties in order to prevent anyone -- from soldiers on the ground to the president -- from being held accountable for activities that at other times have been considered war crimes. . . .

"The international conventions that the United States helped draft, and to which it's a party, were abandoned in secret meetings among the five men in one another's offices. No one in the War Council has publicly described the group's activities in any detail, and only some of their opinions and memorandums have been made public. . . .

"Only one of the five War Council lawyers remains in office: David Addington, the brilliant but abrasive longtime legal adviser and now chief of staff to Cheney. His primary motive, according to several former administration and defense officials, was to push for an expansion of presidential power that Congress or the courts couldn't check."

The other members were Alberto Gonzales, first the White House counsel and then the attorney general; William J. Haynes II, the former Pentagon general counsel; former Justice Department lawyer John Yoo; and Timothy E. Flanigan, a former deputy to Gonzales.

For more on Addington's central role, see my Sept. 5, 2007 column; for more on the relationship between the administration's legal memos and torture, see my April 2 column.
The Senate Investigation

The Senate Armed Services Committee made news with a hearing yesterday -- part of its continuing investigation into the administration's interrogation policies. (Here's the C-SPAN video.)

Joby Warrick writes in The Washington Post: "A senior CIA lawyer advised Pentagon officials about the use of harsh interrogation techniques on detainees at Guantanamo Bay in a meeting in late 2002, defending waterboarding and other methods as permissible despite U.S. and international laws banning torture, according to documents released yesterday by congressional investigators.

"Torture 'is basically subject to perception,' CIA counterterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman told a group of military and intelligence officials gathered at the U.S.-run detention camp in Cuba on Oct. 2, 2002, according to minutes of the meeting. 'If the detainee dies, you're doing it wrong.' . . .

"Fredman, whose agency had been granted broad latitude by Justice Department lawyers to conduct harsh interrogations of suspected terrorists, listed key considerations for setting a similar program at the Cuban prison. He discussed the pros and cons of videotaping, talked about how to avoid interference by the International Committee of the Red Cross and offered a strong defense of waterboarding." . . .

"Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.), the committee chairman, asked: 'How on Earth did we get to the point where a United States government lawyer would say that . . . torture is subject to perception?'."

Levin also introduced evidence that proposed methods faced opposition at the time from experts in military and international law. Warrick writes: "Among them was Mark Fallon, deputy commander of the Defense Department's Criminal Investigation Task Force. He warned in an October 2002 e-mail to Pentagon colleagues that the techniques under discussion would 'shock the conscience of any legal body' that might review how the interrogations were conducted.

"'This looks like the kind of stuff Congressional hearings are made of,' Fallon wrote. He added: 'Someone needs to be considering how history will look back at this.'"

The star witness yesterday was Haynes -- the former Pentagon general counsel, "War Council" member and Addington protege.

Mark Mazzetti and Scott Shane write in the New York Times that Haynes "sparred at length with senators seeking to pin on him some responsibility for the harsh tactics and the worldwide outrage they provoked.

"Documents released Tuesday show that some of Mr. Haynes's aides in July 2002 sought out information about aggressive interrogations.

"Mr. Haynes fended off attacks by Democrats and some Republicans, noting that the Defense Department has 10,000 lawyers and saying he had no time to conduct legal research himself on which methods were permitted.

"Moreover, Mr. Haynes said, 'as the lawyer, I was not the decision maker. I was the adviser.'

"Senator Jack Reed, Democrat of Rhode Island, said he thought Mr. Haynes's advice had led American soldiers drastically astray. 'You degraded the integrity of the United States military,' Mr. Reed said."

Dana Milbank writes in The Washington Post: "If ever there was a case that cried out for enhanced interrogation techniques, it was yesterday's Senate appearance by the Pentagon's former top lawyer.

"William 'Jim' Haynes II, the man who blessed the use of dogs, hoods and nudity to pry information out of recalcitrant detainees, proved to be a model of evasion himself as he resisted all attempts at inquiry by the Armed Services Committee. . .

"It was the most public case of memory loss since Alberto Gonzales, appearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee, forgot everything he ever knew about anything. And, like Gonzales, Haynes (who, denied a federal judgeship by the Senate, left the Pentagon in February for a job with Chevron) had good reason to plead temporary senility.

"A committee investigation found that, contrary to his earlier testimony, Haynes had showed strong interest in potentially abusive questioning methods as early as July 2002. Later, ignoring the strong objections of the uniformed military, Haynes sent a memo to Donald Rumsfeld recommending the approval of stress positions, nudity, dogs and light deprivation. . . .

"Haynes mixed his forgetfulness with a dash of insolence. He suggested to [Claire] McCaskill [(D-Mo.)] that 'it's important that you understand how the Defense Department works.' He cut off [Jack] Reed [(D-R.I.)] with a 'Let me finish, Senator!' and disclosed that he had been too busy to give more attention to the Geneva Conventions: 'I mean, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of decisions made every day. This was one.'"

Mark Benjamin of Salon offers up a timeline based on the Senate investigation. He writes that "as more and more documents from inside the Bush government come to light, it is increasingly clear that the administration sought from early on to implement interrogation techniques whose basis was torture.

Phil Carter analyzes the new evidence on washingtonpost.com

Adam Zagorin writes for Time: "Despite years of investigation into alleged abuse and death of prisoners in U.S. custody since 9/11, the only Americans held accountable have been the low-ranking 'bad apples' convicted for the worst atrocities at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. No official blame has been assigned to higher-ups for abuses at Guantanamo or in Afghanistan, much less for crimes allegedly committed by U.S. personnel in various secret CIA prisons around the world."

Tim Rutten writes in his Los Angeles Times opinion column: "Apart from understanding how and why the Bush/Cheney administration tricked the American people into going to war in Iraq, no question is more urgent than how the White House forced the adoption of torture as state policy of the United States."

Rutten writes that, along with earlier revelations, "the current Senate investigation has established definitively that the drive to make torture an instrument of U.S. policy originated at the highest levels of the Bush administration -- mainly in the circle that included Cheney, Rumsfeld and Addington. This group had come to Washington determined to implement its theory of 'the unitary executive,' which holds that presidential powers of all sorts have been dangerously diminished since the Vietnam War. The fact that these guys seem to have defined executive branch power as the ability to hold people in secret and torture them pushes the creepy quotient into areas that probably require psychoanalytic credentials."

Rutten, however, has nothing but scorn for the "handful of European rights activists and people on the lacy left fringe of American politics" who are calling for criminal indictments or war-crime trials.
The White House Line

White House spokesman Tony Fratto repeated the official administration position yesterday: "I'm telling you that abuse of detainees has never been, is not, and will never be the policy of this government. The policy of this government has been to take these detainees and to interrogate them and get the information that we can get to help protect this country, which we have been very successful at doing, and we've been very successful at getting the information that has saved lives and prevented attacks on this country and on our allies. . . .

"[W]e do not abuse and we treat detainees humanely and comporting with the law."
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
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As crappy as the result is, I can understand not having dissenting (to the point of mutiny) values at the top of the chain of command. The last thing we need is to have a cluster fuck of dissenting opinions at that level to the point where nothing gets done.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Originally posted by: RichardE
As crappy as the result is, I can understand not having dissenting (to the point of mutiny) values at the top of the chain of command. The last thing we need is to have a cluster fuck of dissenting opinions at that level to the point where nothing gets done.
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And with his statement, RichardE, find the crux of the situation.

I have long used the praise that one good apple can spoil a whole barrel of rotten ones, and that is exactly what we have here in the GWB administration. A monochrome cabal of same thinking individuals that are effective working as a team.

The RichardE argument might hold some joy for us all if GWB advisers even remotely equaled
good. But instead they are a bunch of moral degenerates, bullies, and they have this wacki
agenda they will not rethink even though the results are exactly what they don't want.

Its time to point out to RichardE thats its really bad news for everyone in the world when people like Hitler, Stalin, and Ossama Bin Laden can find effective people to aid them in becoming effective.

And when a US General and a honest man like Taguba makes a charge of international war crimes against GWB&co., it should alarm every thinking human being on the planet. Of course, many other people on this forum, me included, have already independently reached the conclusion that GWB&co is largely composed of people who either commit or cause to be committed, international war crimes. And in the eyes of the law, a leader who knows about, but fails to stop international war crimes being committed by people they control, is even more guilty than the actual perpetrator of the abuse.

And after GWB leaves office, no later than 1/20/2009, we may learn the fuller truth. Its very possible that RichardE can watch GWB and many in his administration being found guilty by tribunals in the Hague.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Another day... another JP thread bashing the military(President on down). Shocked I tell you... I'm shocked... :p

Weren't the Abu guards charged for thier misbehavior? Where exactly is the "war crime" you speak of? You think it's a "war crime" by the President(White House) that there have been some instances of abuse? Using that "logic" maybe you should also find time for your purported outrage at the UN... I hear they like kids...
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
6,899
63
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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Another day... another JP thread bashing the military(President on down). Shocked I tell you... I'm shocked... :p

Weren't the Abu guards charged for thier misbehavior? Where exactly is the "war crime" you speak of? You think it's a "war crime" by the President(White House) that there have been some instances of abuse? Using that "logic" maybe you should also find time for your purported outrage at the UN... I hear they like kids...

The new report, he writes, "tells the largely untold human story of what happened to detainees in our custody when the Commander-in-Chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture. This story is not only written in words: It is scrawled for the rest of these individual's lives on their bodies and minds. Our national honor is stained by the indignity and inhumane treatment these men received from their captors.

What does the UN have to do with this? Thanks for the "duhhversion"
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Another day... another JP thread bashing the military(President on down). Shocked I tell you... I'm shocked... :p

Weren't the Abu guards charged for thier misbehavior? Where exactly is the "war crime" you speak of? You think it's a "war crime" by the President(White House) that there have been some instances of abuse? Using that "logic" maybe you should also find time for your purported outrage at the UN... I hear they like kids...

The new report, he writes, "tells the largely untold human story of what happened to detainees in our custody when the Commander-in-Chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture. This story is not only written in words: It is scrawled for the rest of these individual's lives on their bodies and minds. Our national honor is stained by the indignity and inhumane treatment these men received from their captors.

What does the UN have to do with this? Thanks for the "duhhversion"

Wow, his opinion? Quite the "evidence". :roll:

The UN statement is a parallel. I am looking to see if his "logic" is consistent or if his purported outrage is selective..... but I think we all know that answer. :)
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Another day... another JP thread bashing the military(President on down). Shocked I tell you... I'm shocked... :p

Weren't the Abu guards charged for thier misbehavior? Where exactly is the "war crime" you speak of? You think it's a "war crime" by the President(White House) that there have been some instances of abuse? Using that "logic" maybe you should also find time for your purported outrage at the UN... I hear they like kids...
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Once again, Cad shows how delusional he is. (1) Its a little hard to call this jpeyton thread a military bashing thread when jpeyton is praising a US general who got fired by Rumsfeld for being honest in his reporting. (2) If Cad thinks that Abu is the only case of prisoner abuse, not only has he failed to read the link, he is totally delusional as well. But the whole cover of Abu was blown by one honest soldier, who waas horrified by the abuse he saw in a disk of pictures he was given, and took it to the US military. Who did act, again showing our rank and file military remains largely uncorrupted by GWB&co. The main abuses seem to occur at GITMO and elsewhere, and thanks to a veil of secrecy, we remain somewhat blissfully in the dark, but what little leaks out is equally horrendous. (3) The argument the the UN is not perfect has nothing to do with nothing. The next thing we know Cad will brag that GWB&co. has not reached the level of moral degeneracy of Hitler and that excuses it all.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Taguba's opinion isn't quite like that of our resident apologist staff- taguba headed the investigation into the whole Abu Ghraib imbroglio. but, of course, the guy knows nothing, according to CSG and the choir, absolutely nothing...

Not to mention that Haynes' memory loss will undoubtedly presage similar problems for any other perps who appear before congress... maybe CSG&Co will accept the idea that they were just drunk on power, operating in a blackout, therefore entirely forgivable and blameless... why, the poor dears really can't remember a thing, can they?
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Another day... another JP thread bashing the military(President on down). Shocked I tell you... I'm shocked... :p

Weren't the Abu guards charged for thier misbehavior? Where exactly is the "war crime" you speak of? You think it's a "war crime" by the President(White House) that there have been some instances of abuse? Using that "logic" maybe you should also find time for your purported outrage at the UN... I hear they like kids...
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Once again, Cad shows how delusional he is. (1) Its a little hard to call this jpeyton thread a military bashing thread when jpeyton is praising a US general who got fired by Rumsfeld for being honest in his reporting. (2) If Cad thinks that Abu is the only case of prisoner abuse, not only has he failed to read the link, he is totally delusional as well. But the whole cover of Abu was blown by one honest soldier, who waas horrified by the abuse he saw in a disk of pictures he was given, and took it to the US military. Who did act, again showing our rank and file military remains largely uncorrupted by GWB&co. The main abuses seem to occur at GITMO and elsewhere, and thanks to a veil of secrecy, we remain somewhat blissfully in the dark, but what little leaks out is equally horrendous. (3) The argument the the UN is not perfect has nothing to do with nothing. The next thing we know Cad will brag that GWB&co. has not reached the level of moral degeneracy of Hitler and that excuses it all.

I don't even think he read the whole article. If he did, then he was biased from the beginning as soon as his brain mixed the words "military" and "jpeyton".

So many of those in power who usually support the military and the government in general have been coming forth like this. I want to know how many more need to come out before someone takes real action. My guess is that will never happen though. Talk about lacking a sense of justice.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,211
5,791
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If someone is Officially sent to Investigate an alleged Crime, then concludes that indeed a Crime has occured, then those allegations should immediately be acted upon. Even those, the Bush Admin in this instance, who originated the Investigation should no longer have any say regarding the Prosecution of those allegations.
 
May 16, 2000
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No problem at all...immediately and publicly execute EVERY member of the executive department, right down to the secretaries and accountants. While at it, hang every officer in the military above rank 05. Once that's done make the entire episode mandatory study in every 12th grade civics/government class. Also declare a national day of shame where everyone is bombarded with reminders of just how evil men can be.

That should pretty much stop it from happening again any time soon.
 

Skitzer

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2000
4,414
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Ho Hum ..... you're right, nothing to see here.
Damn ..... what made me click on this thread? ........ 5 minutes of my life down the tubes.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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When in Rome... In this part of the world it's normal to torture. Saudi police and other arab states do it. The militias do it. Saddam did it. I think the president was feed the idea by his allies in that region as a way to effectively get information rather than coming straight from some 'monochrome cabal' as Lemon Law states.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Originally posted by: Zebo
When in Rome... In this part of the world it's normal to torture. Saudi police and other arab states do it. The militias do it. Saddam did it. I think the president was feed the idea by his allies in that region as a way to effectively get information rather than coming straight from some 'monochrome cabal' as Lemon Law states.

Now Zebo comes up with the defense that many of these torture method existed long before GWB&co were born. Sadly this idea of rendition is totally against existing US law as it is expressly illegal to turn someone in US custody over the a regime known to use torture on prisoners. As Zebo comes up with a bullshit argument easily debunked.

And although I don't have a link handy, this larger account by General Taguba is somewhat
already well documented. This was an investigation Taguba was ordered by Rumsfeld to supervise, and when it later became apparent to Rumsfeld that Taguba was going to report
the finding accurately and honestly, Rumsfeld fired Taguba in a sneaky and dishonorable way
effectively ending his long and distinguished military career with a blot on his record.

It seems to me, that if this thread is going to be discredited, these GWB sympathizers and GWB apologists posters should be going after the credibility of Taguba and his motivations.
They are not and therefore their arguments have little credibility, not to mention the fact, IMHO, that Taguba, his credibility, and his military record are going to be very difficult to discredit.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Another day... another JP thread bashing the military(President on down). Shocked I tell you... I'm shocked... :p

Weren't the Abu guards charged for thier misbehavior? Where exactly is the "war crime" you speak of? You think it's a "war crime" by the President(White House) that there have been some instances of abuse? Using that "logic" maybe you should also find time for your purported outrage at the UN... I hear they like kids...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, Cad shows how delusional he is. (1) Its a little hard to call this jpeyton thread a military bashing thread when jpeyton is praising a US general who got fired by Rumsfeld for being honest in his reporting. (2) If Cad thinks that Abu is the only case of prisoner abuse, not only has he failed to read the link, he is totally delusional as well. But the whole cover of Abu was blown by one honest soldier, who waas horrified by the abuse he saw in a disk of pictures he was given, and took it to the US military. Who did act, again showing our rank and file military remains largely uncorrupted by GWB&co. The main abuses seem to occur at GITMO and elsewhere, and thanks to a veil of secrecy, we remain somewhat blissfully in the dark, but what little leaks out is equally horrendous. (3) The argument the the UN is not perfect has nothing to do with nothing. The next thing we know Cad will brag that GWB&co. has not reached the level of moral degeneracy of Hitler and that excuses it all.

Great post LL. :thumbsup:
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,120
6,312
126
Originally posted by: Zebo
When in Rome... In this part of the world it's normal to torture. Saudi police and other arab states do it. The militias do it. Saddam did it. I think the president was feed the idea by his allies in that region as a way to effectively get information rather than coming straight from some 'monochrome cabal' as Lemon Law states.

And when you're as big a turd ad GW you listen, I guess, instead of telling them how we do things civilized here in the West.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Originally posted by: Citrix
The general needs to have his retirement stripped.
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Gotta agree with Citrix.

I certainly hope both the records and forced retirements of both Taguba AND Shinsiki will be later reviewed and rehabilitated to better reflect on their honorable service.

And for that matter, I hope Colin Powell will be given new chances for public service. While Powell has always been somewhat of a company man, he too showed undesired flashes of integrity totally incompatible with GWB&co and got fired for it which is a sad way for a person who served our country to go out. I think Powell should have a chance to go out on top with future successes. Oddly enough, even a total idiot like Ashcroft showed some integrity and likewise deserves some credit for it.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
0
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One of the few individuals actually prosecuted for Abu Gharib was the woman who took the pictures that broke the case.

Her statements in a letter a few days after having taken the pictures:
Yes, they do beat the prisoners up and I?ve written this to you before. I just don?t think it?s right and never have. That?s why I take the pictures ? to prove the story I tell people. No one would ever believe the shit that goes on. No one. The dead guy didn?t bother me, even took a picture with him doing the thumbs-up. But that?s when I realized it wasn?t funny anymore, that this guy had blood in his nose. I didn?t even have to check his ears and I already knew it was not a heart attack they claimed he died of. He bled to death from some cause of trauma to his head. I was told when they took him out they put an IV in him and put him on a stretcher like he was alive to fool the people around ? they said the autopsy came back ?heart attack.? It?s a lie. The whole military is nothing but lies?

The author of that letter gets prosecuted (without whose pictures, the public may have never learned what occurred at Abu Gharib), but so many others up the chain of command are untouched. Any claim that "justice" has been done in this case is pretty sketchy.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,598
39,900
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And the apologists roll out the "You just hate the military!" thread turds in their usual predictable fashion. Shocking!



 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Another day... another JP thread bashing the military(President on down). Shocked I tell you... I'm shocked... :p

Weren't the Abu guards charged for thier misbehavior? Where exactly is the "war crime" you speak of? You think it's a "war crime" by the President(White House) that there have been some instances of abuse? Using that "logic" maybe you should also find time for your purported outrage at the UN... I hear they like kids...

Please consider reading The Lucifer Effect

Dr Zimbardo lays out an argument for how the chain of command created conditions in which one (especially the military) would expect misbehavior as seen by Abu guards.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
60
91
Originally posted by: RichardE
As crappy as the result is, I can understand not having dissenting (to the point of mutiny) values at the top of the chain of command. The last thing we need is to have a cluster fuck of dissenting opinions at that level to the point where nothing gets done.

Maybe you expect intelligent, honorable generals to click their jackboot heels, toss up a stiff armed salute, shout "Seig hiel!" and claim they were only following orders??? :roll:
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: Skitzer
Ho Hum ..... you're right, nothing to see here.
Damn ..... what made me click on this thread? ........ 5 minutes of my life down the tubes.

What a great citizen you are, that our nation torturing, and the corruption and dishonesty of senior leaders, is 'nothing' to you.