Gen. David Petraeus says the burning of Koran would ...

[Infohawk]

Muslims building a mosque because *ZOMG* they want a place to worship.

Christians burning a Quran because...?

That doesn't really respond to my post but...

Muslims building a mosque because of their stupid superstitions. Christians burning a Quran because of their stupid superstitions.

 

[cubby1223]

I mean that if people are burning Korans with a lot of publicity attached, and the President doesn't say anything, it looks like he's implicitly supporting it. Which is unfortunate, but in our society our elected officials are pretty much forced to comment on everything, because people expect them to and draw all sorts of conclusions when they don't. Especially when people with no official responsibility like Sarah Palin can't STOP commenting on everything.

I don't think it does to many. Though Obama kind of brought that all on himself, being out there campaigning for anything and everything, commenting on so much prior, hell, damn near promising to personally correct all of our life problems during his presidential campaign. Taking the personal stances from the arrest of a Cambridge professor (the police acted stupidly) to the AZ law (being arrested for buying ice cream).

Just to throw something out quickly, Obama could have said something along the lines of "I do not encourage these actions. It was not the Islamic faith that attacked America on Sept. 11 rather a group of extremists which we are continuing to fight against, to protect the rights and freedoms of as many people as we can, including those of this Pastor in Florida."

What Obama actually said comes across as a message of weakness, and certainly what I would consider out of character for any President of this country.

 

[Infohawk]

What Obama said comes across as a message of weakness, fear, and certainly what I would consider out of character for any President of this country.

Absolutely. He actually sounded like he was scared when I was heard it.

And the most ridiculous part of this whole debate is the premise that if we just don't burn these books or if Obama just says the right thing that somehow Muslim extremists will change their beliefs and love us. They won't.

 

[Throckmorton]

Absolutely. He actually sounded like he was scared when I was heard it.

And the most ridiculous part of this whole debate is the premise that if we just don't burn these books or if Obama just says the right thing that somehow Muslim extremists will change their beliefs and love us. They won't.

That's a ridiculous straw man.

Did anybody claim that if Jane Fonda didn't give the North Vietnamese propaganda material and rat out POWs that they would have waved the white flag of surrender?

It's unbelievable that you and the preacher are persisting in this "religious extremists" bullshit. Do you really not get it? The Koran Burning sends the message to REGULAR MUSLIMS that we hate them and consider them to be the enemy, just like the Park 51 mosque protests. I guess now it's making more sense why you don't comprehend the concept of winning hearts and minds.

 

[Rainsford]

Absolutely. He actually sounded like he was scared when I was heard it.

And the most ridiculous part of this whole debate is the premise that if we just don't burn these books or if Obama just says the right thing that somehow Muslim extremists will change their beliefs and love us. They won't.

Of course it sounded like that to you, that's what you wanted to read into it. I don't see a major difference between cubby1223's suggested phrasing and what he actually said...but then again, I'm not looking madly for "weakness".

 

[Infohawk]

Of course it sounded like that to you, that's what you wanted to read into it. I don't see a major difference between cubby1223's suggested phrasing and what he actually said...but then again, I'm not looking madly for "weakness".

Really? I voted for him. I didn't want to read weakness into it.

 

[Infohawk]

That's a ridiculous straw man.

Did anybody claim that if Jane Fonda didn't give the North Vietnamese propaganda material and rat out POWs that they would have waved the white flag of surrender?

It's unbelievable that you and the preacher are persisting in this "religious extremists" bullshit. Do you really not get it? The Koran Burning sends the message to REGULAR MUSLIMS that we hate them and consider them to be the enemy, just like the Park 51 mosque protests. I guess now it's making more sense why you don't comprehend the concept of winning hearts and minds.

I have a feeling you don't know what a straw man is... I asked you a question. That is not a straw man.

Do YOU really not get it? "Regular Muslims" believe in superstitious nonsense. They don't have a right to have their superstitions respected and not mocked. If you feel Muslims deserve to be coddled with respect to their superstitions, maybe you shouldn't be on this board debating people. Why are our positions any less worthy of respect than Muslim superstitions?

 

[Rainsford]

That's a ridiculous straw man.

Did anybody claim that if Jane Fonda didn't give the North Vietnamese propaganda material and rat out POWs that they would have waved the white flag of surrender?

It's unbelievable that you and the preacher are persisting in this "religious extremists" bullshit. Do you really not get it? The Koran Burning sends the message to REGULAR MUSLIMS that we hate them and consider them to be the enemy, just like the Park 51 mosque protests. I guess now it's making more sense why you don't comprehend the concept of winning hearts and minds.

The difference is that you see a difference between "regular Muslims" and "violent fanatical Muslims", while the pastor and the posters you mention explicitly do not. Being concerned about offending regular Muslims is EXACTLY the same as being concerned about offending radical fanatics, in their mind, which is why the two ideas are frequently being conflated...because they don't see them as two separate ideas.

 

[Infohawk]

The difference is that you see a difference between "regular Muslims" and "violent fanatical Muslims", while the pastor and the posters you mention explicitly do not. Being concerned about offending regular Muslims is EXACTLY the same as being concerned about offending radical fanatics, in their mind, which is why the two ideas are frequently being conflated...because they don't see them as two separate ideas.

Well in my case I do see the difference. But I know it makes it easier to argue if you say I don't. 😉

 

[Rainsford]

I have a feeling you don't know what a straw man is... I asked you a question. That is not a straw man.

Do YOU really not get it? "Regular Muslims" believe in superstitious nonsense. They don't have a right to have their superstitions respected and not mocked. If you feel Muslims deserve to be coddled with respect to their superstitions, maybe you shouldn't be on this board debating people. Why are our positions any less worthy of respect than Muslim superstitions?

Who says they're not? Burning the holy book of any religion is stupid and hateful, especially when your intention is to demonstrate how much you hate that religion and anybody who believes in it.

Islam and Muslims don't deserve any special treatment, but does anyone REALLY believe that Islam in this country is treated even remotely the same as Christianity or any other religion in this country? Lest we forget, this "Koran burning" event was preceded with several months of "Ground Zero Mosque" debate, with many high profile pundits and politicians basically equating a guy building a community center with terrorist scumbags.

 

[Rainsford]

Really? I voted for him. I didn't want to read weakness into it.

I have yet to read a single one of your comments to suggest you embrace the anti-Muslim, anti-Obama mindset with anything approaching reluctance or fairmindedness. Maybe that's an incorrect impression, but to be honest, that's what I get from every single post you make on this board.

 

[Rainsford]

Well in my case I do see the difference. But I know it makes it easier to argue if you say I don't. 😉

Really? Then why do you seem to think Obama was talking only about Muslim extremists, when he clearly wasn't...

 

[Throckmorton]

I have a feeling you don't know what a straw man is... I asked you a question. That is not a straw man.

Do YOU really not get it? "Regular Muslims" believe in superstitious nonsense. They don't have a right to have their superstitions respected and not mocked. If you feel Muslims deserve to be coddled with respect to their superstitions, maybe you shouldn't be on this board debating people. Why are our positions any less worthy of respect than Muslim superstitions?

Straw man: "the premise that if we just don't burn these books or if Obama just says the right thing that somehow Muslim extremists will change their beliefs and love us"

 

[Infohawk]

Who says they're not? Burning the holy book of any religion is stupid and hateful, especially when your intention is to demonstrate how much you hate that religion and anybody who believes in it.

Islam and Muslims don't deserve any special treatment, but does anyone REALLY believe that Islam in this country is treated even remotely the same as Christianity or any other religion in this country? Lest we forget, this "Koran burning" event was preceded with several months of "Ground Zero Mosque" debate, with many high profile pundits and politicians basically equating a guy building a community center with terrorist scumbags.

I do and any other Americans who still have a right to free speech can too. I'm sorry but I will not tip-toe around irrational superstitions and the people that believe in them. I don't like burning books, but I don't distinguish between "holy" books and normal books like you do though.

I do believe Islam is treated differently. Obviously most Christians are biased against Islam and most other religions. However, it appears that many progressives seem to treat Islam better than Christianity. They will lash out against fundies (as I do too) but rarely say anything negative about the barbaric Muslim faith. And as I've said before I expect more consistency out of progressives than out of Christians.

 

[Infohawk]

I have yet to read a single one of your comments to suggest you embrace the anti-Muslim, anti-Obama mindset with anything approaching reluctance or fairmindedness. Maybe that's an incorrect impression, but to be honest, that's what I get from every single post you make on this board.

I honestly don't understand this post. Can you rephrase it? I definitely don't see the relevance to voting to Obama. Are you suggesting I didn't vote for Obama?

 

[Infohawk]

Really? Then why do you seem to think Obama was talking only about Muslim extremists, when he clearly wasn't...

Maybe we're not thinking of the same quotes. What I heard on the radio was him expressing fear over what might happen to American soldiers (by extremists) if this idiot burns a book.

 

[Infohawk]

Straw man: "the premise that if we just don't burn these books or if Obama just says the right thing that somehow Muslim extremists will change their beliefs and love us"

Oh. Maybe that was a straw man then. But if so what are you so worried about? They are going to dislike us no matter what. If a "regular" muslim (lol) is willing to become an extremist because a fundie burns a book and then shoot at our soldiers, then I hope our soldiers have good aim.

 

[Rainsford]

I honestly don't understand this post. Can you rephrase it? I definitely don't see the relevance to voting to Obama. Are you suggesting I didn't vote for Obama?

I'm not sure whether you did or not, my point was that you don't come across (to me at least) like someone who is anything but a dyed in the wool conservative partisan, whatever you claim about your objectivity or who you did or did not vote for.

 

[Throckmorton]

I do and any other Americans who still have a right to free speech can too. I'm sorry but I will not tip-toe around irrational superstitions and the people that believe in them. I don't like burning books, but I don't distinguish between "holy" books and normal books like you do though.

I do believe Islam is treated differently. Obviously most Christians are biased against Islam and most other religions. However, it appears that many progressives seem to treat Islam better than Christianity. They will lash out against fundies (as I do too) but rarely say anything negative about the barbaric Muslim faith. And as I've said before I expect more consistency out of progressives than out of Christians.

Here's what you fail to understand... Our militant atheism on this forum is academic. We can bash Islam, Christianity, etc all day long on ATPN and it has no effect.

But bashing Islam/Muslims out in the real world and creating a "Burn a Koran Day" actually has repercussions. Sending Muslims the message that Americans think we're fighting a crusade/jihad against them and believe their religion is evil actually jeopardizes the war effort against extremists and terrorists that we're fighting for their sake.


If you don't think there's a difference, try this experiment: Go to the deepest part of the Deep South, find a popular hangout for blue collar gun toting redneck Christians, and tell them what you think of their religion. Eventually someone is going to kick your ass, and the rest of them won't take your side or come to your defense.

 

[Infohawk]

I'm not sure whether you did or not, my point was that you don't come across (to me at least) like someone who is anything but a dyed in the wool conservative partisan, whatever you claim about your objectivity or who you did or did not vote for.

Ah, I see you're calling me a liar. I'm not surprised that someone with your black-and-white world view would find it hard to believe. I could suggest that you go back and read what I wrote around 2004 and 2008, but honestly I don't care what you think since clearly suffer from serious internal biases.

 

[Rainsford]

Maybe we're not thinking of the same quotes. What I heard on the radio was him expressing fear over what might happen to American soldiers (by extremists) if this idiot burns a book.

I think it was more broad than that, as far as I understood it. A key part of our effort in the Middle East relies on the support of the non-extremist Muslims, who will be less inclined to help us as a result of things like burning the Koran. That too endangers American soldiers...

 

[Infohawk]

Here's what you fail to understand... Our militant atheism on this forum is academic. We can bash Islam, Christianity, etc all day long on ATPN and it has no effect.

But bashing Islam/Muslims out in the real world and creating a "Burn a Koran Day" actually has repercussions. Sending Muslims the message that Americans think we're fighting a crusade/jihad against them and believe their religion is evil actually jeopardizes the war effort against extremists and terrorists that we're fighting for their sake.

I do understand that it has repercussions. I just find it offensive that someone would suggest a private American citizen (even if he is a nutjob) has to censor himself because it might offend some superstitious people in another country. If it was a general I'd be concerned, but he's not.

 

[Rainsford]

Ah, I see you're calling me a liar. I'm not surprised that someone with your black-and-white world view would find it hard to believe. I could suggest that you go back and read what I wrote around 2004 and 2008, but honestly I don't care what you think since clearly suffer from serious internal biases.

Actually, I'm getting carried away here, my apologies. This shouldn't be about me or you, it's about points of view, and attacking your motivations isn't helpful and it doesn't back up my argument.

 

[Infohawk]

I think it was more broad than that, as far as I understood it. A key part of our effort in the Middle East relies on the support of the non-extremist Muslims, who will be less inclined to help us as a result of things like burning the Koran. That too endangers American soldiers...

If "non-extremist muslims" turn against us because some random person burns a book, they are in fact extremists as far as I can tell.

 

[Rainsford]

I do understand that it has repercussions. I just find it offensive that someone would suggest a private American citizen (even if he is a nutjob) has to censor himself because it might offend some superstitious people in another country. If it was a general I'd be concerned, but he's not.

I don't know, people censor themselves all the time so they don't offend others. And let's be honest, it's not like anyone is asking this guy to avoid some normal behavior...he's INTENTIONALLY trying to piss Muslims off.

I feel like the major difference here is that the offended group is Muslims...the tone of this discussion would not be the way it is if we were talking about anything else.