"Geforce 7900 cards scarce but not rare"

[dfloyd]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
First of all those tom's benchmarks are rubbish - I was pointed to his comparison engine way back when I upgraded my cpu to a 3200XP - his predicted figures are way off the mark compared to my actual performance.

The only way a 9800 can come close to beating a 6600GT is if it's the 256mb model (the 9800 badly needs the extra 128mb to perform at its best, the 6600GT only requires the extra 128mb for AA performance at and above 1280x960).

Also a 6200 is almost exactly half as powerful as a 9700 pro - ie right on 9500 performance levels. No 9600 is as powerful as a 9500...

http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/rv360/index.php?p=8

Hmm a documented case of a 9600 beating a 9500, and believe it or not its another site since you distrust Toms Hardware. (If you had any recollection at all you would know that if Tom ever showed a bias it was only for Nvidia, his reviews are much more unbiased these days, at least imo). According to my tests and what I have seen his numbers are right on the mark. But either of us saying this proves nothing without documented results, since neither of us are posting our documented results we will just have to rely on these review sites, umm like Toms. And again stating you were pointed to a comparison engine way back when does not prove or disprove anything, its total speculation without the link or numbers. So personally I think most people would trust Toms over such speculation.

So my advice, buy a backhoe you will get the hole your digging dug quicker.

 

[Gstanfor]

How many 9600XT's vs 9600LE's do you think exist in the world dfloyd? and on the subject of 9800's it takes a very expensive to manufacture former flagship product to ever come close to a cheap midrange part. Yes, you have a point alright.... :roll:

Oh and Baumann was/is a bought and paid for ATi shill. Did he have catalyst AI disabled for that review?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Look at the number of die per wafer, yields, die size etc

Link

ATi is not going to seriously challenge the NV in terms of cost AND quantity.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
How many 9600XT's vs 9600LE's do you think exist in the world dfloyd? and on the subject of 9800's it takes a very expensive to manufacture former flagship product to ever come close to a cheap midrange part. Yes, you have a point alright.... :roll:

Oh and Baumann was/is a bought and paid for ATi shill. Did he have catalyst AI disabled for that review?

Why would you disable Catalyst AI in a review? nVidia has no such similar feature. Dave a paid ATi shill? That's hilarious coming from the likes of you: a nobody nV troll. Next you'll be telling us that nV PR is the holy grail of truth.

 

[Gstanfor]

Catalyst AI is important for that particular review because 9500 and 9700 do not have ATi's "Trylinear" filtering optimizations. 9600 & 9800 do. Furthermore IIRC (I'd need to reread old forum threads to be certain), the optimizations were well hidden back then and could not be easily controlled. You had to play around in the registry. It wasn't until tech-report and the 3d-murk report that "Trylinear" really came out into the open.

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation
I cant think of why anyone would buy 7900GTX over X1900XT that costs almost $100 less and outperforms it. Majority of buyers don't overclock either. Which means X1800XT blows the doors off 7900GT. HQ AF advantages? X1900 AVIVO?

Robert is right, ATI needs to take a course or 2 in marketing and advertising.

I have a very silent system. I tried the X1900 and it was very loud while gaming. This was a no no for me and the card was returned.

The 7900GTX runs quietly even during games and has the performance I need. For the price, I bought during launch and it was only 8% more expensive (540x500). If I would have kept the ATI and installed an aftermarket cooler, this would cost more than the GTX.

As for performance, it wins in some games, it looses in others. I don't call that a clear winner/looser situation.

My card o/c to 715/1800, which gives a good boost btw.

However, I am tempted today. I can get a Powercolor X1900XT for 100$ less. I can ebay my GTX (due to the lack of supply here, I can get a good price) and pay for a new cooler.

The only thing is that my system runs cool and quiet. I wonder what a X1900 with an aftermarket cooler would do to it.....


PS: Both cards shimmer, even at HQ AL OFF or HQ Clamp etc etc. Nvidia's TSAA is a better solution IMO.

 

[lopri]

What a waste of bandwidth

 

[dfloyd]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
How many 9600XT's vs 9600LE's do you think exist in the world dfloyd? and on the subject of 9800's it takes a very expensive to manufacture former flagship product to ever come close to a cheap midrange part. Yes, you have a point alright.... :roll:

Oh and Baumann was/is a bought and paid for ATi shill. Did he have catalyst AI disabled for that review?

What does that have to do with anything? It doesnt matter if there is only 1 of each in the whole world. Your comments have been that no 9800 could touch a 6600 GT, and that no 9600 could come close to a 6200, and when both of those were proven wrong you tried claiming a 9500 would beat any 9600, I proved you wrong on all counts. Thats what we were discussing. Nothing to do with LE, XT, or whatever it is your trying to drag us off into now.

And it does not matter how much former 9800s cost, they are not manufactured by Ati anymore anyways, but there are plenty of them on the market, so what is your point?

I have not seen anyone on this thread act like they are bought and paid for except you friend. Why do you think I have kept coming back and proving you wrong with every post you make? Your comments are just ludicrious and wrong, your not helping this forum by being a fanboy and spreading misinformation. Please post facts, and at the very least please attempt to be balanced, and when if at all possible be honest. If you like one company then say so, but dont go around making totally off the wall claims and telling other people they are wrong when it is actually you who have been wrong on everyone of your posts that I have replyed to so far.

Its sad but I would rather have Rollo back, at least some of his claims made sense, this stuff is just funny

And on topic, this is more marketing, without hard numbers from all retailers we cant gather any kind of real picture of what is or what is not for sure happening. Right now it appears Ati is slightly in the lead with the enthuasist crowd, I could easily be wrong, but Nvidia is a more popular namebrand from past products (Not sure why, as it would seem everyone should of learned a good lesson about brand loyalty with Nvidias 5xxx cards).

How do you tell if its fact or marketing? By how much the poster colors it

 

[Gstanfor]

No, you are the one trying to color facts mate. People play far more than UT2004 3dmark on their systems. The vast majority of the time the 6600GT will slaughter the 9800 series.

There will always be exceptions (that people like you love to pounce on and wheel out in debates such as this), for instance the 5900FX was faster in COD (a game it was bundled with), did that make it the fastest card on the market on the time? Would I be stupid enough to try and make such a claim (like you are) on the basis of such information?

Finally read my sig.

here and here is the source of your unreal tournament performance. There are more articles devoted to the subject, I can't be bothered digging them up.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
No, you are the one trying to color facts mate. People play far more than UT2004 3dmark on their systems. The vast majority of the time the 6600GT will slaughter the 9800 series.

There will always be exceptions (that people like you love to pounce on and wheel out in debates such as this), for instance the 5900FX was faster in COD (a game it was bundled with), did that make it the fastest card on the market on the time? Would I be stupid enough to try and make such a claim (like you are) on the basis of such information?

Oh my. DID YOU EVEN READ WHAT THE OTHER GUY SAID? HIS LINKES INCLUDED LINKS TO UT2004, 9800XT vs. 6600GT:

UT2004 1600x1200 4x/8x
9800XT: 47.4 FPS
6600GT: 42.0 FPS

Half-Life 2 1600x1200 4x/8x
9800XT: 31.6 FPS
6600GT: 18.4 FPS

As you can see, the 9800XT CREAMS the 6600GT in both tests, mainly because of much higher memory bandwidth. What many people believe, that the 6600GT is faster than a 9800XT, is a myth.

 

[Ackmed]

The simple fact is the 7900 series launch, has worse availability and price than the 7800 series launch. The 7800 series was never sold out like the 7900 has been, and prices dropped within the first month, not going up. NV has taken a step backwards in this dept.

 

[imported_OldNick]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
It's a no-brainer this round.

X1900XT + aftermarket cooler > 7900GT/X

1. Faster
2. Angle indep AF
3. HDR+AA
4. Equivalent or lower cost

I'm hoping Nvidia makes a better showing next round, like adding those two very important features.

I think doing things like using aftermarket coolers voids your warranty.

Angle independent AF is dope, I don't think there are many HDR+AA games though. My buddy told me there's only one?

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: OldNick

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
It's a no-brainer this round.

X1900XT + aftermarket cooler > 7900GT/X

1. Faster
2. Angle indep AF
3. HDR+AA
4. Equivalent or lower cost

I'm hoping Nvidia makes a better showing next round, like adding those two very important features.

I think doing things like using aftermarket coolers voids your warranty.

Angle independent AF is dope, I don't think there are many HDR+AA games though. My buddy told me there's only one?

Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion = HDR+AA 'nuff said

 

[imported_OldNick]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: OldNick

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
It's a no-brainer this round.

X1900XT + aftermarket cooler > 7900GT/X

1. Faster
2. Angle indep AF
3. HDR+AA
4. Equivalent or lower cost

I'm hoping Nvidia makes a better showing next round, like adding those two very important features.

I think doing things like using aftermarket coolers voids your warranty.

Angle independent AF is dope, I don't think there are many HDR+AA games though. My buddy told me there's only one?

Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion = HDR+AA 'nuff said

Wait a minute- everyone knows Obliveon doesn't use HDR and AA, why are you trying to fool me?

It even says so on the ATI web page??

http://support.ati.com/ics/support/defa...ID=894&task=knowledge&questionID=21960

"This driver is provided as a proof-of-concept and is not supported by Bethesda, 2K games or ATI Technologies.





Known issues:

1. SuperAA with CrossFire in HDR mode is not enabled. If you have SupperAA enabled you will get the quality and performance of one card as opposed to two.

2. Rendering issues with grass shadows

3. On an ATI Radeon X1600XT CrossFire configuration, the game may intermittently crash if the resolution is set higher than 1600x1200

4. On an ATI Radeon X1900 series card, the game may crash while task-switching between the desktop and game (alt-tab).



ATI Engineering is currently investigating these issues. "

I heard the game programmers have to program special patches to make HDR work with AA, and ATI even says they didn't and they get crashes and weird grass if you use it. :-(

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
The simple fact is the 7900 series launch, has worse availability and price than the 7800 series launch. The 7800 series was never sold out like the 7900 has been, and prices dropped within the first month, not going up. NV has taken a step backwards in this dept.

Tell this to the stockholders. They are selling all the production for a higher price......

 

[dfloyd]

Originally posted by: OldNick

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: OldNick

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
It's a no-brainer this round.

X1900XT + aftermarket cooler > 7900GT/X

1. Faster
2. Angle indep AF
3. HDR+AA
4. Equivalent or lower cost

I'm hoping Nvidia makes a better showing next round, like adding those two very important features.

I think doing things like using aftermarket coolers voids your warranty.

Angle independent AF is dope, I don't think there are many HDR+AA games though. My buddy told me there's only one?

Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion = HDR+AA 'nuff said

Wait a minute- everyone knows Obliveon doesn't use HDR and AA, why are you trying to fool me?

It even says so on the ATI web page??

http://support.ati.com/ics/support/defa...ID=894&task=knowledge&questionID=21960

"This driver is provided as a proof-of-concept and is not supported by Bethesda, 2K games or ATI Technologies.





Known issues:

1. SuperAA with CrossFire in HDR mode is not enabled. If you have SupperAA enabled you will get the quality and performance of one card as opposed to two.

2. Rendering issues with grass shadows

3. On an ATI Radeon X1600XT CrossFire configuration, the game may intermittently crash if the resolution is set higher than 1600x1200

4. On an ATI Radeon X1900 series card, the game may crash while task-switching between the desktop and game (alt-tab).



ATI Engineering is currently investigating these issues. "

I heard the game programmers have to program special patches to make HDR work with AA, and ATI even says they didn't and they get crashes and weird grass if you use it. :-(

And what do you get if you try to enable HDR + AA on Nvidia cards in Oblivion?

Apples to Apples Please.

Edit: Ok Gstanfor enough of this, its just getting silly now. Please reread the post and try, please try, to read what you posted and what I posted. I have not colored anything, only made claims that proved your claims wrong and I posted numbers to prove that. Every single time you posted you went off on some wild tangent trying to somehow make your claim, which usually had nothing to do with the post you were defending, look legit. For instance you claim you did not care about 3dmark and completly ignored that I not only posted 3dmark scores, but also Half Life II and UT2k4 (Guess now your going to claim scores for the Source Engine and the Unreal Engine are pointless) scores, so continue to ignore them if you choose, but please at least keep a concurrent thought (from post to post) when your trying to prove or disprove a claim you made, if nothing else it would at least make sense then.

 

[imported_OldNick]

Dfloyd,

I don't think HDR and AA work together on nVidia graphics cards, but EXtellron wasnt saying anything about nVidia.

I was just saying it doesnt look like it works properley on any cards after Extellron told me it did.

Peace.

 

[schtuga]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
The simple fact is the 7900 series launch, has worse availability and price than the 7800 series launch. The 7800 series was never sold out like the 7900 has been, and prices dropped within the first month, not going up. NV has taken a step backwards in this dept.

Yes,and the x1900's have better features,and better hq af,etc.

But Nvidia is a much better managed company.ATI still don't have the confidence of investors.And the extra features + die size make the x1900's more costly to make,giving them lower margins and make less money.Nvidia markets better,twimtbp,aeg etc,(THAT'S BUSINESS)

You can talk tech all you want,but the fact is that nvidia have convinced people that an
equal/less performing card ,for the same or more money is the right purchase.And until this changes,they will be a stronger company.

Show all the benches you want,I'm sure Nv laughs everytime they haul another wheelbarrow full of money to the bank.The financial quarter reports don't lie.
ATI needs to get rid of Dave Orton.

 

[dfloyd]

But it does Nick, at least on Atis high end cards. May miss a feature or two on a few cards but screenshots have been posted and many players have been blown away by how good it looks.

What you posted makes it sound like it does not work the best on Ati cards, but it does not work at all on Nvidia cards so its not a fair comparison, and that was my point friend. Ala the Apples to apples thing.

 

[Gstanfor]

dfloyd: half-life2 runs just as fast and most often faster on nVIDIA cards. Drivers have a lot to do with that, I didn't look at any but the first two links you provided and lets not forget the 5 million dollar deal between Valve and ATi either...

So, what you are saying in essence is that because 3dmark and Unreal Tournament and HL2 are faster on 9800, everything else is too? I don't think so... and neither do plenty of people who have gone from 9800's to 6600GT's either...

Oh and one last thing, a 6600 isn't nearly as likely to fail because of a crappy heatsink fan either - need I remind you once again which card is the midrange model and which one the former flagship?

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
dfloyd: half-life2 runs just as fast and most often faster on nVIDIA cards. Drivers have a lot to do with that, I didn't look at any but the first two links you provided and lets not forget the 5 million dollar deal between Valve and ATi either...

So, what you are saying in essence is that because 3dmark and Unreal Tournament and HL2 are faster on 9800, everything else is too? I don't think so... and neither do plenty of people who have gone from 9800's to 6600GT's either...

i'm a big meh on the change (as we've discussed in the past). I would never have done it if it wasn't for my RMA issues with powercolor and my Aus supplier. Mainly because at that stage i was playing a lot of farcry and with AA @1024 the 6600GT was slower than the 9800 pro

I've grown to appreciate my 6600GT (i assume that it's nicely faster in games like FEAR?), especially with a Zalman VF700-Cu on board now (the stock fan (reference hsf) was fvcking whiny/noisy). I suspect my next card will be nvidia again (i can get a 7900GT for $460 here, price rules out any high end ATI cards in aus ), but i do miss my 9800 pro a little

 

[Gstanfor]

How do you find farcry speed now, a few driver revisions later?

 

[dfloyd]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
dfloyd: half-life2 runs just as fast and most often faster on nVIDIA cards. Drivers have a lot to do with that, I didn't look at any but the first two links you provided and lets not forget the 5 million dollar deal between Valve and ATi either...

So, what you are saying in essence is that because 3dmark and Unreal Tournament and HL2 are faster on 9800, everything else is too? I don't think so... and neither do plenty of people who have gone from 9800's to 6600GT's either...

Oh and one last thing, a 6600 isn't nearly as likely to fail because of a crappy heatsink fan either - need I remind you once again which card is the midrange model and which one the former flagship?

Where did I ever claim that because the 9800 wins in those games that it wins in all games? Once again a wild tagent that has nothing to do with what I posted or what we were discussing. In case you fail to relaize it you opened this bag of worms, you claimed the 9800 NEVER beats a 6600 GT, all I did was show you that you were incorrect. Flagship has nothing to do with it, midrange has nothing to do with it, I dont care if it only wins in one game. The point is you were wrong by claiming no 9800 series card can come close to a 6600 GT, you were also wrong when you claimed the 9600 XT could not touch a 6200. Thats the point of my reply to you, not all this other stuff you keep coloring in.

 

[the Chase]

From what I've seen of availability on Newegg's site in the last month- 7900GT + 7900GTX = paperlaunch by my defenition. I said the same about the R520 in the day. You can talk about 4-1 all you want and I do believe Nvidia is/could outsell ATI if they had cards available, but 1 brand for 2-3 days then none for 3 days then 1-2 for 2 days then none for 4 days is not what I would call any kind of production volume at all. Maybe the 4-1 thing happened in the first week of the 7900's launch when enough cards were available at great prices?

 

[Gstanfor]

What I said was "a 6600GT will make mincemeat of any 9800 series card and the higherend 6200's are more than a match for the 9600 too" and you have not proved that statement wrong in any way shape or form. 99% of the time a 6600GT will humiliate a 9800 series card - and thats good enough for me and many (probably millions or very high hundreds of thousands) of other 6600GT owners, Especially when you consider all the differences between the two.