lol, yeah..i didn't mean anything by that. just didn't think you'd want to spend $200 or so on it.
lol, yeah..i didn't mean anything by that. just didn't think you'd want to spend $200 or so on it.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
- Aug 25, 2001
- 56,572
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Not very widely used video format? WMV-HD is going to be *the* HD video format for pre-recorded content. Or did you miss the whole deal with MS and the IEEE and the DVD people (forgot which group, there's several different format 'consortiums' right now), choosing it to be included as a perferred codec for the next generation of pre-recorded content?
Well, I guess the rants are a perfect match for the level of WMV-HD acceleration that this NV product currently provides - "nothing", even though it was advertised as a feature on the box, in most cases.
Are you comparing yourself to Ghandi now? :roll:
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
- Aug 25, 2001
- 56,572
- 10,208
- 126
Yes. Look into a newest-generation RealMagic-family card from Sigma Designs. Their newest products can hardware-accelerate MPEG-4 and Divx, and I would assume by now WMV and perhaps WMV-HD.
Back in the days of PII-300s and the like, their RealMagic Ventura/Hollywood/Hollywood+ cards were fairly legendary in terms of both output quality and level of hardware acceration/offload.
NVidia and their OEMs should start slapping the same chip that Sigma Designs uses on their cards, onto the NV reference designs, and then the problem being discussed here would be a non-issue.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
- Aug 25, 2001
- 56,572
- 10,208
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Btw, there's another interesting data-point here , regarding card revisions. The user claims that the newer revision won't "unlock" the full 16 pipes. It's a little unclear if he means that they won't unlock without artifacts, or simply don't seem to exist. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it is the latter, though, which begs the question - is there a newer silicon revision in the pipeline, being used on 6800 AGP boards? One that only has 12 pipelines in hardware? Could the PVP issues also be fixed on those cards? Speculating even further - could or would NV offer a swap for owners of existing 6800 AGP cards with an (apparently) defective PVP? Kind of in the same manner that Intel swapped owners of the early Pentium chips with defective FDIV with a newer P-90/100 with a properly-functioning FDIV opcode? Something to definately investigate further.
So it seems as though there is no cost effective hardware based decoding solution. :-( Silly nVidia, they always forget that extra logic gate at the critical juncture 
Virtual Larry:
I'm honestly asking- when is this going to be a factor?
I said it's not very widely used- is it? You say it's "going" to be, which I don't disagree with, do we know when? Shifts in formats usually don't happen, say, tomorrow?
I'm honestly asking- when is this going to be a factor?
He should be so lucky.
LoneWolf15
Member
- Feb 20, 2001
- 151
- 0
- 0
The Sigma Designs X-Card is still out there, for a price of around $100 new (less used) it does hardware decoding of MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and DivX, as well as decoding Dolby Digital audio. It's a neat add-on for an HTPC if you want to use a lower end cooler running CPU and still get performance...but it is admittedly an aging technology which doesn't support WMV-9.
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/xcard.htm
gsellis
Diamond Member
- Dec 4, 2003
- 6,061
- 0
- 0
It could have been a factor Right Now. I had a query to both nVidia and ATI as the WMV decode was the sole feature that we were looking at the 6800 and X800 for. If it had not been for the 6800's paper release and late to channel, it would have been the card. The pilot project was 50 odd HD LCDs. If there had not been a funding and a release issue, I would be the biggest screamer right now. Funny how things work out some times. Sometimes the Ifs go in your favor. We do have a X800 that we use for a media box now though. It is nice for my video editor
(testing, just put my 9600XT back in tonight).As for WMV-HD, my Xeons are running full tilt right now encoding a WMV-HD test file using some Sony FX-1 samples from a guy in Japan.
I guess that depends on when tomorrow comes- so far we have a "going to be" and a "could have been"
but no "it's expected to be used significantly in 2005".
I'm all for getting what you pay for, but you have to admit so far this is a little like the DX9 in 2003. (at least in 2004?) If we're talking about not being able to watch tech demos accelerated it's a whole different issue than "every DVD I rent or movie I download is in this format my card stutters on.
So far I've seen one use personally for WMV- my Creative Zen Media Center only plays WMV, so all video has to be converted into it.
quite frankly I don't care whether it will become the standard today or next year. I don't care that there is only one vid that I stutter on. All I care about is that when something is advertised, it should work as advertised. I don't ask any more than what the company offers, but I certainly do not expect any less.
Do you even have a 6800 Red Dragon? (I don't see it noted in your sig)
I guess my "point" is that we have this 1000 post thread with people fighting amongst themselves like it was the Civil War, calls for lawsuits, demands for all sorts of free goods, over something I don't really see in use.
So my question is: Specifically, how is this effecting your use of this card? When do we expect to see actual recorded content in this format beyond the tech demos on MSs page?
IMO, it's not a very big deal if a S3 card doesn't work right with their MeTal API if there are no games with MeTal?
I know a lot of you reading this are angrily preparing "Who cares?!?! We want what's ours! Show solidarity to our cause or die!" but I think the question is fair:
How are you currently damaged by this? When do you expect to see recorded movies in this format?
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
- Aug 25, 2001
- 56,572
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Rollo, T2, and several of the other WMV-HD movie trailers/demos that you can download from MS's sample site, are also available in a full pre-recorded WMV-HD version on DVD. (Obviously they won't play in a stock DVD player, only a PC or one capable of playing back WMV-HD content.)
I mean, if you bought a set-top DVD player, that also claimed to be able to support DivX-format movies on the box, and it didn't, and you waited 6+ months for them to release a promised firmware update to enable that feature, or whatever it takes, and they never came though - wouldn't you be miffed? Wouldn't you want them to make it right? Even if the number of pre-recorded DivX-format movies was rather sparse compared to MPEG-2/DVD-format movies?
My personal opinion at this point? NVidia is just plain full of it, and they're stalling, no more, no less. They don't have any magic rabbit to pull out of a hat. Not this time. (And NV's driver team has been known to pull "miracles" out of their a** in the past too - like sudden 25% improvements in benchmarks and some games - on the same hardware! If they can't get this issue solved, no-one can.)
I mean, if you bought a set-top DVD player, that also claimed to be able to support DivX-format movies on the box, and it didn't, and you waited 6+ months for them to release a promised firmware update to enable that feature, or whatever it takes, and they never came though - wouldn't you be miffed? Wouldn't you want them to make it right? Even if the number of pre-recorded DivX-format movies was rather sparse compared to MPEG-2/DVD-format movies?
My personal opinion at this point? NVidia is just plain full of it, and they're stalling, no more, no less. They don't have any magic rabbit to pull out of a hat. Not this time. (And NV's driver team has been known to pull "miracles" out of their a** in the past too - like sudden 25% improvements in benchmarks and some games - on the same hardware! If they can't get this issue solved, no-one can.)
Currently I feel pretty damaged by this. I bought my 6800GT specifically for great gaming and WMV9-HD decoding on my Home Theater PC hooked up to my HDTV. Now the gaming is still wonderful... but that doesn't change the fact that I feel very damaged by the #2 feature on my list that I wanted BAD! I have about 40 captured HD movies in MPEG2 that on average take up about 15-20 GB in storage. When I read the announcement of the 6800 and saw that it would have hardware decoding for WMV9-HD I started converting all of my captured videos to the Microsoft codec. I found that I could compress the movies down to 5-10 GB without losing any noticeable quality. Playing back 1080p WMV9 is VERY taxing on a CPU and I've been waiting very anxiously for some sort of official statement from nVIDIA as to whether I made my purchase in vain. Personally I feel pretty cheated... but still hopeful and patient till I hear it from the horse's mouth.
Well both of the next-gen standards have made official statements that the Microsoft WM9-HD codec will be MANDATORY! These new standards have also announced that production of players and movies will happen by the end of 2005. We should start seeing movies in the format pretty soon... within 1-2 years. I personally didn't want to have to upgrade again. I planned on putting a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray PC drive in my HTPC and be set. Didn't think I would have to buy yet another video card when nVIDIA orignally told me the one I already spent $400 on would be ready for the future!
Toshiba/NEC HD-DVD statement:
"The Forum said Tuesday (March 2) that it has issued a "provisional approval of MPEG-2, Microsoft Corp.-developed Windows Media 9 and H.264 as mandatory for the upcoming High Definition (HD) DVD video specification" for future HD DVD players."
Sony Blu-Ray statement:
"The advanced video codecs that will be mandatory are MPEG-4 AVC High Profile and Microsoft's VC-1 video codec (the proposed SMPTE standard based on WMV9)."
If you need links... I can provide them.
Rollo,
I appreciate that you were able to provide whatever information you can from your friend at nVidia about the status of the VP. However, that statement that I quoted from you does not sit well with me. First of all, this thread is not about you. We don't care if you don't ever plan to use WMV 9 encoding/decoding and that it doesn't affect your gaming experience. If you're so happy with your GeForce 6800 and have no problems with the VP, then why are you posting to this thread? Didn't all of the posts here give you any indication that there are GeForce 6 owners that are not happy (apparently that doesn't include you) with the way nVidia handled the VP situation? If it didn't, then I don't know what will.
What we do care is the VP's ability to do WMV9 acceleration like nVidia stated that the VP could do back in May. People in this forum are naturally venting their frustration to the lack of communication, driver (software), support from nVidia in regards to the VP situation. It's just that statements like the one above induce a civil war in this thread so if you have no use for the video processor, please try to refrain from making those kind of statements. Thanks.
Lets try this and hope soon we see leaked TRUE VIDEO one lol.
NVIDIA Forceware 71.20
http://www.station-drivers.com...nvidia%20forceware.htm
NVIDIA Forceware 71.20
http://www.station-drivers.com...nvidia%20forceware.htm
- Aug 22, 2001
- 31,760
- 31,747
- 146
I'll try them now, the 70.90 did fix my IQ and stuttering issues with fullscreen video so that is a positive. BTW, since rumors have emerged that a player patch is also needed, it could well be that the delay in release is due to either adding support for their DVD Decoder or waiting for MS to patch theirs. Just something more to speculate about
Just interested in the problem now that I've seen all the concern bpt8056, stating my opinion of it, and trying to gather info on it's parameters.
Thanks Demons- it looks like a year or two off is when the WMV will start being an issue to a larger extent? I've never owned a card a whole year, and have already sold the GT to a friend, so I'm probably covered.
LoneWolf15
Member
- Feb 20, 2001
- 151
- 0
- 0
Yes, however it is just a processor and not a PCI-card solution like the X-Card is. One can hope that that will change, however Sigma Designs is going further into the set-top box market, and it would seem they are reducing their presence in the PC market.
Use powedvd then its always since i first seen it in build 3 had tickbox to use hardware accel and all nvidia gpus for years have had hardware accel of some sort.
LoneWolf15
Member
- Feb 20, 2001
- 151
- 0
- 0
Perhaps you are covered, but I generally own my vid cards for two years at a time --now that I'm married, that time frame may increase. I never purchase top-of-the-line, but I do purchase middle end to slightly above to try and ensure my graphics card purchase will last me awhile. And video support is important in my use of my computer. And, I knew that HD WMV-9 would be the upcoming standard for HD-DVD.
Are promises important to you? They are to me. That's why I don't promise anything to someone unless I'm 99.44% sure I can keep it. I've broken very few promises in life because I don't make them if I don't believe I can keep them. When I give my word, it is important to me that I keep it. If I break my word to someone, they have every right to be upset with me, and I owe them an apology.
When a company like nVidia lists a feature on their product (namely, the GeForce 6 class of GPU chips), I consider that a promise by a company of something that their product does. If that feature is advertised but not available at the time the product is purchased, I have an issue with it, this is not being true to a promise. If the company does not make that feature available despite user request for it, and furthermore does not communicate with the users who purchased the product on why that feature is not working, or if/when that feature can be expected to be working, I have another problem. This is breaking a promise.
It doesn't matter to me if you personally do or do not use this feature. It does not matter to me if you will or will not keep your product long enough for usage of this feature to become more commonplace. It matters to me what a company originally promised its customers. Perhaps I even purchased this product as opposed to another product based on this company's promise. And what if I now own this product and trusted this company to make good on its promises, so that I owned it past the return date? Telling me I should return this product isn't very helpful. nVidia shouldn't be promising what it cannot deliver, therefore forcing me to deal with the problems of their product.
I have a right to hold companies to their promises. Note that the promise of the Video Processor is still in the .PDF on nVidia's website for the entier Geforce 6 family of GPU's. Not just the 6600, the 6200, or any one card, not just AGP or PCIe interface cards...the Geforce 6 Family is what is listed. They have never removed this .PDF, and it has been publicly available since the release of the GeForce 6800 series of cards. This is selling goods based on a false promise, and will be until the problem is solved and the features listed are delivered upon.
Quoted from nVidia's .PDF for the GeForce 6 family, currently available at http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_16823.html
ADVANCED VIDEO AND DISPLAY
FUNCTIONALITY
? Dedicated on-chip video processor
? MPEG video encode and decode
? WMV9 decode acceleration
? Advanced adaptive de-interlacing
? High-quality video scaling and filtering
? DVD and HDTV-ready MPEG-2 decoding up
to 1920x1080i resolution
Answer me this...do I have a right to expect that when a company promises me a feature of their product, that it is available at the time I purchase the product (assuming there is no legalese telling me it is not available yet)? I'd just like a yes or no on this one, Rollo.
exactly. He is here because he HAS to defend NVidia, no matter the issue. That is what he does. I don't have to be a longtime member here to know unquestionably, that Rollo has taken up the fight for Nvidia in every circumstance over the years. Does anyone question for a second that he would take any other side, or see any other point of view than an Nvidia fanboy? Earlier, he made the comment about the dx9 controversy, and how people were out of line criticizing last year....lol...just as I said before, no doubt Rollo was attacking people who complained their 5900's,5600,5700's wouldn't do ps2.0 with any sort of playability, Despite Nvidia's grandiose marketing campaign. So, even he admits, that was his position. But, he fails to take into account, that Now in late 2004 there are thousands of peoples who have paid $400,300.,whatever on these cards, and these modern ps2.0 games are now out....and they can't play them to their fullest...or to the extent they were led to believe when they trusted Nvidia, and invested $400 in a card. But now and then, rollo takes Nvidia's side. The parralels to this current situation is clear. Thanks rollo, for bringing it up...lol.
And now, for this broken VPP... unbelievably, when a completely disabled feature is lacking, one that a great many in this thread bought the card over ATI for, and is key for their computing habits....he attacks them. He is so nearsighted, and so clouded by subjectivity and devotion to nvidia, he cannot for a second realize other users have different computing needs...video editing, and HTPC in particular..hell even someone who watches a lot of hidef video or online movies would be drastically affected by this. And there is also the whole divx issue and non working hardware encoding/decoding. Yeah, that is a real unpopular format Rollo..can't see how anyone would have the audacity to demand Nvidia to deliver what they adverised. :disgust: People go and spend $500 bucks on a video card that advertised such revolutionary onboard features, and said feature profoundly influenced their buying decisions....and when its broken or whatever......Nvidia fanboys come on here and attack. At first, they say its not broken...then when proved wrong
1. you're over reacting.
2. its not really needed anyways, there isn't any content...and if I don't have a need for it, then nobody else possibly could
3. go and buy a new cpu for $400 and then it won't be an issue anymore ..lol
4. don't worry, it will be fixed just you wait and see..LOL.
At first Rollo was lashing out at anyone who spoke out against his beloved Nvidia. Now, once Rollo has taken a beating from users here..lol.., his tune has changed ever so slightly to less attacking. But, make no mistake, he still seeks to minimize our concerns, and say its not a needed feature, and we are over reacting. I guess it would be too much to ask, for someone like him, who only sees things through the rose colored glasses of an Nvidia fanboy, to see things from someone ELSE's perspective....or understand that OTHER PEOPLE may have DIFFERENT NEEDS AND USES for THEIR CARDS THAN HE HAS.. But, no, for a self involved, self consumed person like Rollo, he can only see things from his own narrow viewpoint. ie: "I love Nvidia, they are the greatest graphics company ever, anyone who says any negative word doesn't know what he is talking about." By the way, he has yet to get it through his thick skull,( perhaps because this is Nvidia PR spin)...but he has yet to come to the realization that this issue involves much more than .WMV... the broken VPP has had implications across the board for video playback. Cpu usage is up in virtually every playback circumstance except dvd, and even that is flawed due to this broken hardware.
As for the .wmv thing I own 4 .WMV HD Dvd's, (stepinto liquid, standing in the shadows of motown, T2 extreme, and Lewis and Clark exbhidition) and they won't play on this card. There is just too much stuttering. Whereas mine and others 9500pro and 9800pros, (it doesn't matter what dx9card) played flawless. Now, The 9800 series doesn't have a VPP, but it IS able to play these movies fine....the 6800 doesn't have a workinhg VPP either..its broken...but it cant play it at all!! What is the difference? Why can't the 6800's play without stutter? The difference is, the broken VPP has had implications down the line for video playback, vmr9 mode in particular.The 6800 series has to offload everything onto the CPU, any other dx9 card was able to utilize the V/P pipelines for assistance(in VMR9 playback mode). That is just one tangible example of video playback issues affecting this card. No hardware accel for divx decode/encode is another. High cpu usage disproportionately across the board on this 6800 for virtually all video playback modes is another. On a relatively fast processor, a user playing high quality video can only do that, play video. If one even loads a web page, it will bog down the computer...whereas any other card in the last two years handles such tasks without breaking a sweat. The 6800 appears to offload virtually everything onto the processor as a result of this broken VPP> The exception being dvd playback, but even that has higher cpu usage imo. Those few with the highest end, most modern processors may notice this less...but throw in an X800 series for comparison, hell throw in a 5900, and the difference will be clear. These 6800's because of the broken VPP, put a tremendous burden on the cpu, moreover this is unique to the 6800's, a user is essentially getting a performance downgrade as far as videoplayback capabilities. That is unbelievable, and entirely unacceptable, for people who bought the fecking card at a premium price mind you, because they wanted the onboard VPP to help OFFLOAD the burden on the CPU!!! The fact of the matter is this, due to the broken VPP, these$300 $400,$500 cards are a disaster for all around Video Playback, and HTPC. As has been said over and over again...virtually any other modern card, a 5800, 5900. 9500pro, 9800pro, any of these are better performing for video playback, plain and simple. :disgust: to make things worse, many of us here bought the god damned 6800 specifically because we wanted an upgrade for video playback performance, and there is no question about it, we have gotten a downgrade...the reason is clear, the VPP is broken. To be fair, I will say this, image quality(when its not tearing) is spectacular on this card, so Image quality is phenominal and is an upgrade, the cpu burden and performance though, makes it virtually unusable in many a circumstance.
We trusted Nvidia, and gave our hard earned dollars to them, thinking we were getting an upgrade for games and video. They have only delivered on the games part, and unbelievably, not only did we not get an upgrade for video capabilities....we got a fecking downgrade, and a broken, nonexistent feature....that was highly touted, and forcefed to us in a BS marketing campaign. Now they are in PR mode, and lying their asses off trying to cover this up...and we come here to talk about it, and try and get things done, and clowns like Rollo are unconditionally defending them, and attacking us for wanting what we paid for. But hey, nothing new there, He's been there done that, and apparently been doing that around here the last couple of years.
btw, there is nothing wrong with defending Nvidia in itself, it depends on the issue, or the truth or falsehood of the situation, and whether they are right or wrong. My point is, in Rollos world, Nvidia is always right, and he defends them no matter how culpable they are, no matter their tactics, and no matter how they have harmed consumers. apparently he can not see it any other way if he wanted too. he is a fanboy. when someone says something negative about his precious company, he attacks them and flame. Nvidia is infallible in his world. That is in essence what we have witnessed in this thread, and I imagine, many many more. Text
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