GeForce 6 series video processor OFFICIAL THREAD

[epking]

Originally posted by: humey
A deff answer to fastwrites for nvidia no we dont know 100% sure as of all conficts on web and if you got a NF2 or newer NF3 or NF4 mobo they say you not need it on unless you got ati gpu cause nvidia already bypass the same thing fastwrites does, by using hardware.

Im staying neutral, i see no good or bad with any the bios settings mentioned that aint the normal ones, like fastwrite / cache bios to ram or is it cache ram to bios (hard to tell from here ) and the aperture size, i set it from 64 to 512 and all inbetween and got no probs.

If anyone finds out a modern deff guide on a trusted site, plz post url here.

http://www.rojakpot.com/ >>>The Definitive BIOS Optimization Guide Revision 8.0

The above is old at over 1 years and tells you to turn fast writes on, no mention of ATI or NF2 mobos, as i said every damn site conflicts each other.

i've got an nf2, two in fact, and fastwrites makes no difference for me. I don't doubt what the punisher is saying though...but I do think it only applies to certain Intel boards. I think the fastwrites issue is almost always exclusive to Intel and the 6800's. Fastwrites off is supposed to help stuttering on 6800's and intel boards, ect...

I also agree with humey, with these modern gpus, the bios settings like fastwrites, aperture and caching, all of this makes almost no difference whatsoever 99% of the time, maybe 50 3dmarks here or there but thats about it. I disabled fastwrites on my DFI lanparty NF2, and have run a half dozen benches and games, and .wmv. It makes no performance difference at all....so what humey's saying appears to be true as well.

On a different note,

I'm seriously thinking about trading in my 6800std for a 6600agp. Any thoughts? What do you guys think the performance difference will be in games compared to this 6800std? I've got a xp3200 and 1gig of ram, I'm wondering how much games like HL2 and Doom3 are CPU limited at this point. In otherwords, would I get virtually the same performance since the CPU may be the ceiling anyways? For example, Doom3 and HL2 are just playable on this 6800std at 1280x960 and 1280x1024. I'd hate to go down any less, and the prospect of a downgrade bothers me a little, since it shouldn;t be necessary if this bloody 6800 worked as advertised!!! I'm hesitant to drop down, because as far as gaming performance this 6800 is about as low as I want to go as far as performance. Any thoughts? Video playback performance is real important to me as well....its a fecking shame this 6800 cannot provide both gaming and video playback performance LIKE IT SHOULD>...as thats why i bought the freakin thing!! My other option would be to rebuild a pcix system, which I'm leaning towards anyways, but I hate to be pushed in this direction, I'm not dying to sink a grand into this at the moment. If only I could have a $300-400ish 6800 series that did HD video playback properly. I've also got a 9800pro thaT I may try to sell, and get a 6600agp with some of the proceeds...but then i would have to have a seperate gaming 6800rig and a HTPC rig, and i have always preferred using one for both. And then I always have a standalone seperate video editing/do everything backup system. Anyone have any thoughts/suggestions. I'm particularly interested in what people think about whether i am currently cpu limited with the 6800 in games like D3 and HL2, so if i went to the 6600gt, would performance be more or less the same in those games?

 

[imported_humey]

You obv never read what i typed fully, only what you wanted to see, ATI ATI ATI

its on nvidia mobos for reason not just intel as you may run a ati or older nvidia gpu

"AGP Fast Writes make a very small performance difference, but have been known to cause a wide variety of stability problems, so please be cautious and use the information below at your own risk."


I got no performance or stability diff with it on or off or these otrher options messed with in bios.

 

[epking]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: humey
OH so you know more than NVIDIA who made NF2 and said it already does what fastwrites does or better than other websites ?.

Your also one that is 1 min pissed at this 6800 joke and next not bothered as its for gamming , true ?

Also i did add this was for games not movies as sites dont touch on hd movies.

If nF2 doesn't need fastwrites then why is it present in the bios?


Just found this over@eVGA
Text Since all nV cards support fast writes why wouldn't their chipset? I will need to see the proof of "NVIDIA who made NF2 and said it already does what fastwrites does or better" or I'll file this under FUD, thanks

Also i did add this was for games not movies as sites dont touch on hd movies.[/quote]If nF2 doesn't need fastwrites then why is it present in the bios?

this is an odd question. Humey's position should be pretty clear...he said, if you have an NF2 and Nvidia, fastwrites isn't needed, makes no difference. One "ought" to be able to conclude, that it can still provide some benefit for ATI users. His comments made this loud and clear. Anyways, this fastwrites thing is getting us bogged down in nonsense mostly. Dapunisher, since you have an intel board, and enabling fastwrites has solved your problem with playing WinHD.... you have been screaming this ever since....as if this was a UNIVERSAL LAW, and this was gonna solve everyones video issues. No offense, Somehow, I don't think its quite that clear cut, YOUR firsthand experience aside..lol. But, you have seemingly, been consistently claiming that everyone was over reacting, and enabling fastwrites was the answer to everyones video problems. It may have helped in your experience, but that being true, does not make that it applicable in every circumstance. Everyone tends to think and learn in this experiential manner, but God, give people a little credit. Please realize everyone's machine is not gonna react like yours did, likewise, this problem is a lot more far-reaching than enabling fastwrites. Also, earlier you said people with old processors if they enable fastwrites can get smoothplayback....I'm sorry, this is just not so. One person after another is reporting a slideshow from A64's on down. The lowest processor I've seen yet is an xp2500, and even this should playback WinHD on anything but a 6800 card. Yes, the 6800 is the key element here....not people's processors, not whether they have Intel or AMD, and it sure as hell is not whether they have fastwrites on or off. The only exception to this rule is if certain users have a powerful enough processor to overcome the disproportionate burden that the 6800 puts on the processor compared to other dx9 cards. This is typically those with P4's with HT, and higher end A64's ect. It does seem that Intel cpu's are fairing better playing these vids....and yes, I would actually agree with you....enabling Fastwrites is better than not.....Its just not some magic bullet, that you keep claiming it is.

 

[CraigRT]

voucher for next generation

 

[imported_humey]

HORRAY \O/

Someone with sence, i also seen this thread wandering from real topic to flame wars (some of which i took bait on and joined) to diff issues, we all here as of 6800 POS, and if anyone here is saying others are moaning and that we bought gpu prim for games, they shouldnt really be here if they happy, this is for peeps to stick together to wait on fix or get something done maybe legally, i iant keeping a £400 + card i hunted down for 5 months to purchase if it dont do what it claims on the box.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: CraigRT
voucher for next generation

I could go for that! 40% off with a nice, corporate apology. :thumbsup:

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I don't have an Intel system, and the link I provided clearly states all geforce cards support fastwrites. Furthermore SIL will not play smoothly for me with fastwrites off on my nF3150/A64 system. Others have reported the same thing. I am still waiting for proof of the statement made, provide it please

Btw never said it would solve the issue, but with it on users report dropping less frames, period.

this is an odd question. Humey's position should be pretty clear...he said, if you have an NF2 and Nvidia, fastwrites isn't needed, makes no difference. One "ought" to be able to conclude, that it can still provide some benefit for ATI users. His comments made this loud and clear. Anyways, this fastwrites thing is getting us bogged down in nonsense mostly. Dapunisher, since you have an intel board, and enabling fastwrites has solved your problem with playing WinHD.... you have been screaming this ever since....as if this was a UNIVERSAL LAW, and this was gonna solve everyones video issues. No offense, Somehow, I don't think its quite that clear cut, YOUR firsthand experience aside..lol. But, you have seemingly, been consistently claiming that everyone was over reacting, and enabling fastwrites was the answer to everyones video problems. It may have helped in your experience, but that being true, does not make that it applicable in every circumstance.

Read this and see if fastwrites is just my experience :roll: Notice the date of that thread? You Johnny-come-lately guys evidently aren't aware of how long some of us have been concerned with this issue.

 

[epking]

all geforce cards support fastwrites

I never said they didn't. Also, I never said that it was just your experience. Why is it that people keep making up statements when they don't like what someone says?

I just said that on AMD systems, it makes very little difference. Moreover, with very little exception, fast writes have been a non-issue the last generation or so of cards...meaning performance is virtually the same either way. BTW, the link you provided in support of your claim that Nvidia supported fastwrites(which by the way, no one disputed, and was a non-issue..) anyways, the evga link you provided you convieniently left out the next line:

.

AGP Fast Writes make a very small performance difference, but have been known to cause a wide variety of stability problems, so please be cautious and use the information below at your own risk.

Again, I don't deny it could make a difference in WinHD, but its not gonna make that big of a difference. Why is this such a big deal?
I leave fastwrites on by default, for the record. The thing is, Its just NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL> you keep making it out to be. What I did say, is thaT you keep overstating fastwrites, and their ability to solve this problem or to make a huge difference. And I have read this entire thread. Moreover, I would recoemmend people try with fastwrites on and off, to see if it makes any difference, anything to get it to work. I've tried it both ways, I'd imagine anyone else who cares has too. But I keep coming back in here, and there you are screaming FASTWRITEs...give it a break. I mean, I would say 90% of users have fastwrites on anyways, so its not like everyone has them off anyways.

not to get on your bad side, i don't mean any offense, I've argued enough bullchit in this thread..this fastwrite thing is meaningless minutia.

 

[y0bailey]

i think what he is saying is that if

1) if you turn fast writes on there is a chance of improving your dropped frames
2) if you turn fast writes on there isn't a chance of anything negative to happen (besides a few stabilty issues that can arise, however i havent seen them once in any 6800 series of cards)
3) he is saying it is worth a try, its not guaranteed to work.


lets just end it at that and stop this petty bitching that has consumed 41 pages. let the bitching roll come dec 21 if we don't have a new beautiful driver.

 

[epking]

Originally posted by: y0bailey
i think what he is saying is that if

1) if you turn fast writes on there is a chance of improving your dropped frames
2) if you turn fast writes on there isn't a chance of anything negative to happen (besides a few stabilty issues that can arise, however i havent seen them once in any 6800 series of cards)
3) he is saying it is worth a try, its not guaranteed to work.


lets just end it at that and stop this petty bitching that has consumed 41 pages. let the bitching roll come dec 21 if we don't have a new beautiful driver.

allright, well said, I cannot disagree with this at all. Any of it. lol, and i like to disagree.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Slaimus
All prev-gen GPUs had inverse discrete cosine transformation acceleration. the NV40 dumped this unit and replaced it with a fully programmable standalone processor that do iDCT operations and more. That's why with the VP disabled is far slower. There is no fallback acceleration.

Interesting, that makes a lot of sense, thanks. But why does DVD/MPEG-2 content still appear to show some sort of acceleration? Wouldn't that indicate that either the motion-compensation or the iDCT was still working?

Btw, for those that have been getting a line from various parties that there isn't enough WMV-HD content for this to be an issue - what about this ? Sure seems like there's enough content out there, for the capability to start being integrated into set-top players now.

Edit: About the "FastWrites" AGP thing - it should be enabled by default, for any AGP 2x and up device, AFAIK. The only reason for disabling it, that I am aware of, is that it caused instability with certain Nvidia-based graphics cards in the past, but that may also have had to do with the chipsets that they were used on (mostly Via). If you notice, by default, NVidia's drivers also kick down the AGP mode from 4x to 2x on many Via chipset-based boards too, even though the chipset *and* the card theoretically claim to support AGP 4x mode (and FastWrites), but in the Real World, when enabled, they cause problems.

Those sites that claim that "fast writes" result in nearly no performance increase or change, whether enabled or disabled - those are gaming sites saying that. Most games use the hardware 3D acceleration caused by the GPU. FastWrites is pretty-much exclusively an optimization for allowing AGP video-card memory access by the CPU, not the GPU.

On the other hand, stuff like video-decoding is done almost 100% on the host CPU, so it needs the fastest access to video-memory possible. Setting FastWrites to ON does that.

Those reporting "stuttering" on their 6800's with FastWrites enabled in games - that's a defect, either in the drivers, the chipset, or more likely, the 6800's design. I don't have enough info to say which. My guess is that enabling it, may, cause the memory-controller on the card to allocate a fixed "window" of cycles for the host to access memory over the AGP bus, thus reserving memory bandwidth, but at the same time stealing it away from the GPU. That's a totally unsubstantiated theory, but it could potentially explain the "stuttering". It's the same concept as why some PCI-bus hogs (RAID disk controllers), can cause audio stuttering for an PCI-based sound card like an audigy, when they take up too much bus time and steal it from the sound card. I don't know why that would happen with a modern AGP card design though, unless there was a bug somewhere.

 

[epking]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry

Originally posted by: Slaimus
All prev-gen GPUs had inverse discrete cosine transformation acceleration. the NV40 dumped this unit and replaced it with a fully programmable standalone processor that do iDCT operations and more. That's why with the VP disabled is far slower. There is no fallback acceleration.

Interesting, that makes a lot of sense, thanks. But why does DVD/MPEG-2 content still appear to show some sort of acceleration? Wouldn't that indicate that either the motion-compensation or the iDCT was still working?

Btw, for those that have been getting a line from various parties that there isn't enough WMV-HD content for this to be an issue - what about this ? Sure seems like there's enough content out there, for the capability to start being integrated into set-top players now.

I think it is because if you buy their new codecs, they have found a workaround, and gotten some hardware accel. Although imo, I have found the new nvidia codecs look best in Software Video Post Process mode though....this image is positively stunning...and is the only reason I haven't jumped ship. The hardware acclerated dvd in the new codecs is awfully good looking as well, but it still seems to have a much much higher cpu usage than it should. Mine is like 30-40ish, where it should be 10-17% at most. Moreover, I don't think anyone has reported hardware acceleration actually working in other apps, like Powerdvd, or Windvd...though I could be mistaken. Anyways, my guess as to why its working in some instances is because they were able to get it working partially in Mpeg2. This jives with what Nvidia is saying as well, as they are talking about how great it works in mpeg2 with their new codecs for $19.99, LOL.

btw, about the .wmv thing, I've got 4 WinHD dvd's, and planning on more, and download any WinHD stream I can get my hands on. I would not mind fooling around with WinHD encode, needless to say, that is on hold at the moment.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: epking
I think it is because if you buy their new codecs, they have found a workaround, and gotten some hardware accel.

Well, it's already been known that NV's in-development DVD-decoder/codecs use shaders to accelerate post-processing of the video, but that's not an intentional workaround for the 6800 AGP's PVP issue, that I can see, since they have been in development for far longer than the 6800 has even been released, and they also accelerate on other NV cards besides 6800-series ones.

Originally posted by: epking
Although imo, I have found the new nvidia codecs look best in Software Video Post Process mode though....this image is positively stunning...and is the only reason I haven't jumped ship. The hardware acclerated dvd in the new codecs is awfully good looking as well, but it still seems to have a much much higher cpu usage than it should. Mine is like 30-40ish, where it should be 10-17% at most. Moreover, I don't think anyone has reported hardware acceleration actually working in other apps, like Powerdvd, or Windvd...though I could be mistaken. Anyways, my guess as to why its working in some instances is because they were able to get it working partially in Mpeg2. This jives with what Nvidia is saying as well, as they are talking about how great it works in mpeg2 with their new codecs for $19.99, LOL.

I don't see why they would need the PVP at all, at least for basic-level MPEG-2 decoding, it was mostly for the newer, higher-end media formats, hence the need to be "programmable". My old ATI RagePro AGP 2x card handled DVD playback beautifully as well, with a fixed-function hardware-assist.

The high CPU numbers may be because they are doing software-based de-interlacing (ala D-Scaler, which is also used by the newest WinTV drivers as well), followed by using the video card's hardware to smooth out the result. So it should look wonderful, but will also chew up some CPU cycles doing that.

 

[epking]

Well, it's already been known that NV's in-development DVD-decoder/codecs use shaders to accelerate post-processing of the video, but that's not an intentional workaround for the 6800 AGP's PVP issue, that I can see, since they have been in development for far longer than the 6800 has even been released, and they also accelerate on other NV cards besides 6800-series ones.

yeah, good point. It was a known thing.

BUt they did say explicitly that one has to use their codecs in order to get hardware acceleration on dvd playback. So, not sure why that would be...or why they would revise thier statements to say you have to use our codecs..ect.. Any ideas why they are doing this if not?

About needing the VPP thing, not sure, but it definately does its thing with a upscaled 1920x1080i dvd picture in VMR9 mode. It looks awfully good. The codecs'regular hardware accel on this card look better than anything I have seen either..and easily beats my old 9800pro. The high cpu usage does seem out of the ordinary though, everyone over at AVS is reporting it being way too high, and watching DVD is basically all one can do, even in hardware accel mode, whereas with any other card, one could watch a dvd with low cycles, browse the web, ect...now even in hardware accelerated mode, one cannot watch a dvd and scroll a web page, its just too hard on the graphics card. Something is not right there, imo...because one's two year old card could do such things fine. It does all seem to come down the line from this messed up video processor, and it has reprecussions with virtually any halfway demanding video playback. I guess for me, it keeps coming back to The card games and does 3d like a freakin madman, and its image quality for video is out of this world...but one cannot get past this major stumbling block, if one wants to use it as an HTPC, or Video Player.

Virtual Larry, if you have the 6800 and the new codecs, and you have the time and don't mind, please try the VPP mode with smart deinterlacing, compare that to IDCT hardware accel, and smart deinterlacing. See which looks better to your eye, both should look really good. also, tell us what you think about how much acceleration is going on(when its on), and if you think that is a normal amount of hardware accel compared to other graphics cards. In other words, is this the issue with the Video Processor, or is this because of the software deinterlacing that the cpu usage is disproportionately high with these 6800's.

 

[redDragon128]

well I dunno, fastwrites allowed me to play it smoothly. without it it stuttered like crazy. Total slideshow.

 

[Trekari]

How can any of you keep sucking up to this obvious BS?

It's been 8 months people. EIGHT MONTHS.

We were promised a fix for this by the end of November.

My mistake...that couldn't be right because it's now DECEMBER TENTH and we still have JACK and ****.

 

[epking]

Originally posted by: Trekari
How can any of you keep sucking up to this obvious BS?

It's been 8 months people. EIGHT MONTHS.

We were promised a fix for this by the end of November.

My mistake...that couldn't be right because it's now DECEMBER TENTH and we still have JACK and ****.

Oh ye of little faith. Just you wait, this Video fix is coming in the next driver release, along with proper dx9 shader performance on the 5800 series. You and the others must have forgotten how remarkable nvidia's driver team are, you see, they can fix hardware problems with driver code.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Trekari
How can any of you keep sucking up to this obvious BS?

It's been 8 months people. EIGHT MONTHS.

We were promised a fix for this by the end of November.

My mistake...that couldn't be right because it's now DECEMBER TENTH and we still have JACK and ****.

Short version:
It's not worth all this. They'll either fix it or they won't, your only decision is when to take it up with your vendor.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Trekari
How can any of you keep sucking up to this obvious BS?

It's been 8 months people. EIGHT MONTHS.

We were promised a fix for this by the end of November.

My mistake...that couldn't be right because it's now DECEMBER TENTH and we still have JACK and ****.

Short version:
It's not worth all this. They'll either fix it or they won't, your only decision is when to take it up with your vendor.

Worth all what? The time it takes me to post smack on the intardweb?

EDIT: I'm not losing any sleep over this, I do intend to be the very vocal minority till the conclusive "fix it or not" occurs though.

 

[MDE]

I posted a link to this thread on Nvidia's new forums. Hopefully an Nvidia employee can provide insight straight from the horse's rectum.

Link

 

[epking]

No matter how much you piss and moan, one of two things is going to happen:
1. They'll release a fix that adresses your concerns fully or partially.
2. They won't.

Dancing foot to foot like a kid that has to go potty, spending your day posting "Oooh what if the fix isn't good?!?!" isn't going to help you in either eventuality.

As I see it, there are only two reasonable courses of action:
1. Decide "Enough is enough" and take it up with your card vendor.
2. Wait the 8 days and decide then.

OK, now you can get back to improving your lives by posting:
"Eight months has been too long, by gawd!"
"What if they never fix it?"
"It's a hardware issue, I know, I have a cousin who works at Best Buy."
"Do you think they'll give us free cards and a motherboard too if we bitch enough?"

Pretty sad.

prepares for self righteous defense of pissing and moaning, makes mental note not to visit thread for a while

yeah, this is a real worthwhile post you have there too, Rollo. Anyways, it's a good thing you're posting again...Nvidia needs someone to defend her honor, and once again, you are just the man to do it. Remember, As always, Don't let truth get in your way. Also, be sure to attempt to silence and discredit any opinions or speculation you don't agree with.

Wait the 8 days and decide then.

BTW, a short time ago, your position was, everybody shutup untill the NDA is lifted Nov 30, and the drivers will soon follow....you'll see, since you had the proof and whitepapers sitting there on your hard drive and all.

 

[epking]

Originally posted by: MDE
I posted a link to this thread on Nvidia's new forums. Hopefully an Nvidia employee can provide insight straight from the horse's rectum.

Link

Nice post MDE! Hopefully that will get some attention over there as well. LOL, I wonder what the odds are that such threads will start getting deleted. It wouldnt suprise me in the slightest.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Trekari
How can any of you keep sucking up to this obvious BS?

It's been 8 months people. EIGHT MONTHS.

We were promised a fix for this by the end of November.

My mistake...that couldn't be right because it's now DECEMBER TENTH and we still have JACK and ****.

Short version:
It's not worth all this. They'll either fix it or they won't, your only decision is when to take it up with your vendor.

Worth all what? The time it takes me to post smack on the intardweb?

EDIT: I'm not losing any sleep over this, I do intend to be the very vocal minority till the conclusive "fix it or not" occurs though.

By "all this" I mean 821 posts of people gnashing their teeth over one not very widely used video format not working. (with over 13000 views)

The format has differing degrees of importance to all of us 6800 owners, but one thing is for sure: posting why the situation angers you on AT is only going to accomplish three things: 1. Nothing 2. Nothing 3. Nothing

A better use of this thread might be "I called my vendor, MSI, and they said this:"blah blah blah".

I suppose I shouldn't try to be the "post police", but it's kind of sad to see so much wasted space that is the equivalent of shaking your fist at the sky and yelling at the rain?

I'm not aiming this at you Punisher, but there is enough wasted vitriol in this thread to frustrate Ghandi.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Got to disagree with you Rollo, it is our vocal outcry on various forums that resulted in tech sites picking up on the issue and reporting it. That along with our e-mails and phone calls to our card makers in turn led to a response from nV which was not offered without being pressed for one BTW, there is zero encoding support I have seen, though this isn't nVs' fault, and so far only DVD playback seems supported. This is far from what was advertised and that is the source of the uproar my friend.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Rollo
I suppose I shouldn't try to be the "post police", but it's kind of sad to see so much wasted space that is the equivalent of shaking your fist at the sky and yelling at the rain?

I'm not aiming this at you Punisher, but there is enough wasted vitriol in this thread to frustrate Ghandi.

<prepares for self righteous defense of pissing and moaning, makes mental note not to visit thread for a while>

No, you shouldn't "meatball moderate", but it seems you can't help it (No emotional control perhaps?). That you do anyway indicates a form of online illness common among real-life nobodies who use the anonymity of this medium to vent in ways that would otherwise turn them into pariahs, or worse. Cute.

Of course you aren't spitting your worse venom at DP. He's a decent guy and as such your stock approach would alienate those precious few groupies you THINK you have here. Even under these conditions, your fragile psyche can't bear the idea that even he won't buy your mewling, sycophantic NV fanboyism. Yeah, keep kissing DP's tail and using that modified version of your attack script. It's fun to watch.

And this one, aimed at me? How about we play the ?re-characterization game?, Mr. IQ:

Let's instead call it: "A Spirited defense based on being vilified once to often by a fractured, cowardly ego with nothing better to do than deride consumers (or anyone else who doesn?t like NV flavored Kool-Aid) who were given the High Hard One by a company whose product they purchased in good faith."

See how that works? It's not all about Rollo, self-styled king of the VIDEO forum and industry insider who can't get it right.