GDDR5 RAM vs On-Package Cache RAM to improve IGP performance?

[mikk]

Then Intel is "just wrong". They themselves said that they are putting out OpenCL 1.2 support in about a week.

They are not wrong. They publish a new 15.31 driver next week on their downloadcenter page, that's it. Final 15.31 drivers are available since weeks and beta driver since months.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Consoles aren't PC's. Console are subsidized, PC's aren't. This shouldn't need explaining again.

That was the case for PS3, but will not be the case so much for PS4 according to Sony.

Also, it's not the point anyway. If you say that Sony could deliver better performance at a lower cost using a discrete GPU with less GDDR5 RAM (only dedicated to the GPU), then don't you think they would have decided to go with that? And in what way would that decision be different depending on whether consoles are subsidized or not?

Why are you grasping at this so hard? It seems like every thread you create is to find some way to find the thing that is going to be AMD's saving, but you don't listen to anybody as to why it won't work. Why the grasping at everything that is posted on rumor sites, instead of relying upon the facts?

Read the thread. There are lots of different opinions, and it's not obvious the one you stand for is correct. It seems like every time someone doesn't agree with your specific opinion in every detail you get pissed off and tell them they are idiots. I think you need to cool down a bit and realize that not everyone agrees with your SingleVersionOfReality™.

 

[ShintaiDK]

That was the case for PS3, but will not be the case so much for PS4 according to Sony.

So they just raised the price on games to 70$ for what?

 

[Fjodor2001]

So they just raised the price on games to 70$ for what?

Well all I know is that Sony decided to design a console based on cheaper hardware this time (i.e. we're not getting cutting edge performance this time). Blu-ray drives and HDs have come down in price a lot since the PS3 too of course. So the PS4 will be much cheaper to make at launch, compared to much it cost to make the PS3 at its launch. That means Sony will not have to subsidize the PS4 as much to get a reasonable price for the consumer.

Regarding the PS4 game prices, I don't know if that is officially determined yet? But isn't it quite usual that the games are a bit more expensive at the start of a new console cycle?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Well all I know is that Sony decided to design a console based on cheaper hardware this time (i.e. we're not getting cutting edge performance this time). Blu-ray drives and HDs have come down in price a lot since the PS3 too of course. So the PS4 will be much cheaper to make at launch, compared to much it cost to make the PS3 at its launch. That means Sony will not have to subsidize the PS4 as much to get a reasonable price for the consumer.

Regarding the PS4 game prices, I don't know if that is officially determined yet? But isn't it quite usual that the games are a bit more expensive at the start of a new console cycle?

You forget the controllers and other added features that cost as well.

Sony lost a whoopping 5billion$ on the PS3. Thats something like 70$ in pure loss per console sold in the entire lifespan.

MS lost 3billion$ or something equal to 43$ per console.

Not to mention the retail price for consoles now also looks cheaper. And consoles are crashing while PC gaming is expanding.

The PS4 is expected to cost around 400$. The PS3 was around 600$.

And console game price is relatively static.

Its no different than the PS3 launch, and it will be a rerun of the financials as well. Huge losses for both parties.

 

[Fjodor2001]

The PS4 is expected to cost around 400$. The PS3 was around 600$.

The PS3 was priced differently in different countries, at launch most commonly between around $350 and $600 depending on model and country (although up to about $1200 for some models in some countries!). See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_launch#Release_Data_and_Pricing

Sony lost a whoopping 5billion$ on the PS3. Thats something like 70$ in pure loss per console sold in the entire lifespan.

MS lost 3billion$ or something equal to 43$ per console.

Yes, I know. And I thought that was the main reason why they decided to go with cheaper hardware this time.

But you're actually telling me the PS4 will be as expensive to make as the PS3, at their respective launch dates?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yes, I know. And I thought that was the main reason why they decided to go with cheaper hardware this time.

But you're actually telling me the PS4 will be as expensive to make as the PS3, at their respective launch dates?

Did you ignore the 200$ price difference? The PS4 get sold for 200$ less. The hardware might be cheaper, but the loss per console might be bigger due to much lower retail price.

And the hicked gaming price is how they will try cover it. But with console gaming going the way it does, not much hope at all.

Consoles will be a financial disaster until either Sony or MS withdraws. Before one of them does, there might not even be a console market left. Its getting eaten alive by PC gaming from the top and Smart TVs/Tablets/Smartphones from the bottom.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Did you ignore the 200$ price difference? The PS4 get sold for 200$ less. The hardware might be cheaper, but the loss per console might be bigger due to much lower retail price.

Well, actually the PS3 launch price differed a lot between countries. See my previous post. In several countries including the US you could get the PS3 for around $400-500 at launch. So that only makes the PS3 sales price $0-100 higher than the PS4.

But anyway, I think we're getting away a bit from the initial discussion. What was originally being discussed was whether it was likely that GDDR5 RAM could be had at "reasonable prices". And then there was a discussion whether the PS4 could be used as a "marker" for that. And it seems like we both agree that the PS4 hardware is much cheaper to make than the PS3. So if they can afford to put 8 GB GDDR5 RAM in it at that price point, then that may also say something about the price they pay for GDDR5 RAM.

And the hicked gaming price is how they will try cover it.

It could be that they are attempting to improve profits that way, yes I agree. But we don't know the official PS4 game prices yet. And also, they cannot increase the price too much, since then they'll not sell any games or consoles. Price, demand and all that. But I think we're straying away a bit from the topic of this thread here too.

 

[Idontcare]

Consoles aren't PC's. Console are subsidized, PC's aren't. This shouldn't need explaining again.

I forgot that point myself when I made my comments above about PS4's and desktops. But you are right, consoles are heavily subsidized by the licensing revenue model that exists for the games.

It is an interesting business model, a lot like phones and service contracts here in the USA.

In the end someone gets their pound of flesh from you, they just get more and more creative in how they go about getting it.

 

[Fjodor2001]

I forgot that point myself when I made my comments above about PS4's and desktops. But you are right, consoles are heavily subsidized by the licensing revenue model that exists for the games.

It is an interesting business model, a lot like phones and service contracts here in the USA.

In the end someone gets their pound of flesh from you, they just get more and more creative in how they go about getting it.

It's also a model that failed with the PS3 and XBOX360. I.e. the profit from the games did not make up for the heavily subsidized consoles.

It appears Sony and Microsoft to some degree have learned their lesson, and therefore are having cheaper hardware and less subsidized prices on the PS4 and XBOX720 consoles (assuming the expected prices and hardware on those consoles is correct).

 

[StrangerGuy]

Did you ignore the 200$ price difference? The PS4 get sold for 200$ less. The hardware might be cheaper, but the loss per console might be bigger due to much lower retail price.

And the hicked gaming price is how they will try cover it. But with console gaming going the way it does, not much hope at all.

Consoles will be a financial disaster until either Sony or MS withdraws. Before one of them does, there might not even be a console market left. Its getting eaten alive by PC gaming from the top and Smart TVs/Tablets/Smartphones from the bottom.

Absolute nonsense. Without the sheer volume of consoles your oh-so-wonderful PC gaming would been long be dead outside of WoW. Nobody can afford triple-digit million budget games and sell to PC only these days.

 

[ShintaiDK]

So if they can afford to put 8 GB GDDR5 RAM in it at that price point, then that may also say something about the price they pay for GDDR5 RAM.

Its still heavily subsidized. Sony just gonna recoup more via game sales than via selling hardware.

It could be that they are attempting to improve profits that way, yes I agree. But we don't know the official PS4 game prices yet. And also, they cannot increase the price too much, since then they'll not sell any games or consoles. Price, demand and all that. But I think we're straying away a bit from the topic of this thread here too.

Everyone says 70$.

 

[ShintaiDK]

It's also a model that failed with the PS3 and XBOX360. I.e. the profit from the games did not make up for the heavily subsidized consoles.

It appears Sony and Microsoft to some degree have learned their lesson, and therefore are having cheaper hardware and less subsidized prices on the PS4 and XBOX720 consoles (assuming the expected prices and hardware on those consoles is correct).

No they havent. The issue is there is one elephant too much in the phonebooth. The console market is too small for 2 companies.

If anything PS4 and Xbox Next is even closer to contract style phones. Simply to make sure they keep getting payed 8more) via games that also got hicked in price.

 

[Piroko]

Consoles aren't PC's. Console are subsidized, PC's aren't. This shouldn't need explaining again.

I don't get how this is used as an argument against economically sound decisions. We're not living in 2006 anymore, the stock market would murder Sony if the PS4 started off as bad as the PS3 did.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Its still heavily subsidized. Sony just gonna recoup more via game sales than via selling hardware.

It's still much less subsidized than the PS3, so the PS4 sales price is also much more comparable to PC hardware sales price. How much the exact difference is we don't know.

 

[Denithor]

Absolute nonsense. Without the sheer volume of consoles your oh-so-wonderful PC gaming would been long be dead outside of WoW. Nobody can afford triple-digit million budget games and sell to PC only these days.

Without consoles, there would be a crap-ton more people playing PC games so the developers could easily afford huge budgets for PC-only gaming (it would be the only game in town, so to speak).

 

[Fjodor2001]

No they havent. The issue is there is one elephant too much in the phonebooth. The console market is too small for 2 companies.

If anything PS4 and Xbox Next is even closer to contract style phones. Simply to make sure they keep getting payed 8more) via games that also got hicked in price.

It's not either or. They have indeed learned their lesson and are trying to make the best of it, by using cheaper hardware and less subsidized consoles. Whether there are too many console companies or not is another issue.

 

[Phynaz]

So the PS4 will be much cheaper to make at launch, compared to much it cost to make the PS3 at its launch.

It's also selling at half the the price.

 

[MightyMalus]

They are not wrong. They publish a new 15.31 driver next week on their downloadcenter page, that's it. Final 15.31 drivers are available since weeks and beta driver since months.

Alright, going to correct myself...

Intel will Officially Support OpenCL 1.2 on the Ivy Bridge HD4000 iGPU, in about a week.

Maybe everyone will understand it now?

On topic, for the first time ever, developers will be able to target/optimize 6 to 8GB's of Memory, 6~8 x86 cores, DX 11.1, OpenGL 4.2, OpenCL 1.2 and some people still question if the next gen of consoles will be good enough or last long enough? Insane.

Anyways, I prefer the GDDR5, it will "just work". Unlike the added cache, which you need to make it work.

 

[Phynaz]

Read the thread. There are lots of different opinions, and it's not obvious the one you stand for is correct. It seems like every time someone doesn't agree with your specific opinion in every detail you get pissed off and tell them they are idiots. I think you need to cool down a bit and realize that not everyone agrees with your SingleVersionOfReality™.

So first you tell me to stick to facts. But yet your entire hypothesis is based upon rumor and fantasy.

Now that I have corrected your "facts" you want to talk about opinion. It seems you are reacting in the way you are accusing me of acting.

And then you throw in some make believe BS that I have called somebody (presumably you) an idiot. I have not called anyone such. Why would you make such a remark? Do you feel like an idiot and you're reflecting that upon me?

 

[ShintaiDK]

It's still much less subsidized than the PS3, so the PS4 sales price is also much more comparable to PC hardware sales price. How much the exact difference is we don't know.

Thats pure speculation from your side. If there is 200$ less HW. Then its still subsidized the same.

It's not either or. They have indeed learned their lesson and are trying to make the best of it, by using cheaper hardware and less subsidized consoles. Whether there are too many console companies or not is another issue.

Read above. It seems you have problems understanding the retail price difference.

The companies account for these losses. They both know there is not room for both of them, but both of them hope to be the sole survivour. Its no different than what we have seen over and over again in other segments.

 

[ShintaiDK]

So first you tell me to stick to facts. But yet your entire hypothesis is based upon rumor and fantasy.

Now that I have corrected your "facts" you want to talk about opinion. It seems you are reacting in the way you are accusing me of acting.

And then you throw in some make believe BS that I have called somebody (presumably you) an idiot. I have not called anyone such. Why would you make such a remark? Do you feel like an idiot and you're reflecting that upon me?

All his threads tends to go this way.

 

[Fjodor2001]

It's also selling at half the the price.

Actually, no. Didn't you read the this and this previous post?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Actually, no. Didn't you read the this and this previous post?

The top PS3 was 599$.

The top PS4 will sell at 40000 yen. or around 400$.

Could you buy a cheaper PS3? Yes. Can you also buy a cheaper PS4? Yes.

 

[Fjodor2001]

So first you tell me to stick to facts. But yet your entire hypothesis is based upon rumor and fantasy.

Since we're discussing non-release technology for which the complete details are not known, it's quite obvious for what is being mentioned here, isn't it? I.e. we pick up the information that is available and try to make sensible judgments based on that. That's the best we can do.

Or do you have some psychic ability to look into the future?

Now that I have corrected your "facts" you want to talk about opinion. It seems you are reacting in the way you are accusing me of acting.

What "facts" is it that you have "corrected"? Like when you incorrectly claimed that the launch price of the PS was 2x$400=$800 here?

And then you throw in some make believe BS that I have called somebody (presumably you) an idiot. I have not called anyone such. Why would you make such a remark? Do you feel like an idiot and you're reflecting that upon me?

You obviously don't get it.