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Gay Pride parade in Russia gets beat down.

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Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I resent that.

What conservative board members have ever advocated violence against gays? I certainly haven't. I do believe a marraige should be between a man and a woman but I would never support any act of violence against gay people.

There is a huge difference between disagreeing with someone over their position on a specific issue and wishing violence on those you disagree with. I'll argue on this issue all day long but a heated debate is hardly approaching violence.

You might think there is a "huge difference" but the effects on gay people are much the same at the end of the day. People such as yourself, social conservatives, Bush and his supporters, and of course the clergy are at least partly responsible (if indirectly) for the upswing of violence against gays and lesbians during 2003 and 2004.


Gay-Hate Crimes Down
by 365Gay.com Newscenter Staff

May 19, 2006 - 1:00 pm ET

(New York City) Hate crimes against members of LGBT communities nationwide fell 13 percent in 2005 from all-time highs in the two previous years a new report shows.

The study, released by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs and fourteen of its members across the country, still found there were almost 2,000 hate-related incidents in thirteen major cities including New York, Chicago, and San Francisco.

The annual NCAVP report is compiled by agencies that deal with LGBT victims of hate crimes. It is considered more accurate than one published by the FBI which relies on law enforcement reports of such crimes rather than victim service data.

Many LGBT crime victims are reluctant report incidents to police.

The NCAVP survey found anti-LGBT violence fell from 2,270 in 2004 to 1,985 in 2005.

Included in the decline in incidents for the year, was a 15% decrease in anti-LGBT murders in reporting regions - falling from 13 in 2004 to 11 in 2005.

But not every part of the country found LGBT-bias crimes down. Cleveland, Houston, Massachusetts, and Vermont reported slight increases.

One of the reasons LGBT crime increased in 2003 - 2004 was the use anti-gay-marriage amendments in a number of states, and the so-called federal marriage amendment, as a campaign tool by conservative Republicans. In addition the profile of gays was raised in the media as a result of the Supreme Court ruling overturning sodomy laws and the decision by the high court in Massachusetts to permit same-sex marriage.

?This year?s report can be viewed as an has to be viewed as an indication that after almost two years of wholesale attack on LGBT individuals, communities and families, 2005 offered a respite of sorts for our community's experience with hate violence,? said Clarence Patton, NCAVP leader and executive director of the New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project.

?In the last two editions of this report was all too clear that with respect to violence, the nation's LGBT communities had entered a very new, and very dangerous era in which all of us were under attack at levels not seen in recent years," continued Patton.

But he warned that 2006 may see an increase in crimes against gays.

" The fact is that LGBT people are once again slated to be "on the ballot" again in a number of states in the 2006 election season and Senator Frist (the Senate Majority Leader) plans to take action on the Federal Marriage Amendment in early June, setting off another round of political bashing of our community that will no doubt be accompanied by the cultural and physical bashing we experienced across the country in 2003 and 2004," Patton said.


©365Gay.com 2006
 
Those are numbers from a gay activist group that completely ignore FBI statistics so the data is a bit suspect. I'm not saying the FBI stats are 100% accurate but I'm also not going to buy those numbers wholesale either.

But more importantly...

Correlation != Causation

You don't know what caused the increase in violence against gays (or the subsequent decrease in '05). It's easy to attribute statistics to just about anything. And when you are backing a cause it's easy to blame the folks on the other side of the fence.

I don't know but I'd be willing to bet that the overall rate of violent crime against gays has fallen at more or less the same rate as violent crimes against the population at large over the last two decades. And while you will occasionally find periodic increases in violent crimes from one year to the next, the overall trend has been going down for a while now. The small rise in the number of reported incidents in '03 and '04 may very well just be a statistical anomale in an overall down trend.

My guess is every bit as good as yours.
 
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Those are numbers from a gay activist group

I love the way you use terms like "gay activist group" to discredit the good work of a lesbian/ gay community organisation.. I won't bother reading the rest of your post, it's apparent you have nothing to offer but conservative rhetoric and dishonesty.
 
Originally posted by: teclado
Originally posted by: Rainsford
they are a VERY socially conservative society...

Actually, they're communists, which would make them far left AKA liberal...

Don't confuse social and fiscal policies.

The Democrats in America are,
Socially progressive and fiscally liberal.

The Republicans in America are,
Socially repressive and fiscally irresponsible.

The Communist Russians are (historically),
Socially repressive and fiscally liberal.
 
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Those are numbers from a gay activist group

I love the way you use terms like "gay activist group" to discredit the good work of a lesbian/ gay community organisation.. I won't bother reading the rest of your post, it's apparent you have nothing to offer but conservative rhetoric and dishonesty.

No no no no no... You're the one with the rhetoric. You want to blame conservaties for a brief statistical uptick in a downward trend and you used a logical fallacy to do it. You posted a link and highlighted a quote from a person stating that gays are under "wholesale attack" when the numbers simply don't support such a claim.

So don't you dare try to pass me off as being unreasonable or dishonst.

As for your dismissal of me per my opening line in my response to you...
From the NCAVP website:
NCAVP is a coalition of programs that document and advocate for victims of anti-LGBT and anti-HIV/AIDS violence/harassment, domestic violence, sexual assault, police misconduct and other forms of victimization.
By their own words they are a gay activist group. I made no statement discrediting their work. I simply made the statement and pointed out that you can't accept their statistics as 100% accurate. You cannot cite statistics from any activist group [And I mean ANY group regardless of what they are advocates for - NOT just LGBT groups so don't go there] and hold them up as gospel. I went on to say that the FBI stats wouldn't be 100% accurate either.

Your dismissive characterization of me is unfair and incorrect. If anyone is being dishonest here it is you.


 
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
You want to blame conservaties for a brief statistical uptick in a downward trend and you used a logical fallacy to do it.

That political scapegoating of gays and lesbians leads to an increase in hate crimes against gays and lesbians in the wider community is self-evident. It's a parsimonious explanation consistent with the data. No other explanation is reasonable.

The dramatic upswing in hate crimes against gays and lesbians in 2003 & 2004 cannot reasonably be characterized as a "brief statistical uptick". Clearly you have an agenda to minimise the significance of any hardship experienced by lesbians or gays as a result of anti-gay bigotry.

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
You posted a link and highlighted a quote from a person stating that gays are under "wholesale attack" when the numbers simply don't support such a claim.

The wholesale attack refers to the anti-gay marriage campaigns (along with the current Republican-spearheaded anti-gay adoption and anti-gay discrimination protection movements). Lesbians and gays in the USA are indeed under wholesale attack, courtesy of people such as yourself and the people you vote for. The attack is taking place from Church pulpits and in Church newsletters, on radio, and of course within Republican publications and speeches across your nation.

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
So don't you dare try to pass me off as being unreasonable or dishonst.

You are not a decent person. You ARE dishonest not to mention bigoted.

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
As for your dismissal of me per my opening line in my response to you...
From the NCAVP website:
NCAVP is a coalition of programs that document and advocate for victims of anti-LGBT and anti-HIV/AIDS violence/harassment, domestic violence, sexual assault, police misconduct and other forms of victimization.
By their own words they are a gay activist group. I made no statement discrediting their work. I simply made the statement and pointed out that you can't accept their statistics as 100% accurate. You cannot cite statistics from any activist group [And I mean ANY group regardless of what they are advocates for - NOT just LGBT groups so don't go there] and hold them up as gospel. I went on to say that the FBI stats wouldn't be 100% accurate either.

You are using standard conservative rhetoric ("gay activist group") to cast doubt on the validity of the group's findings. This is just a lazy appeal to authority. If you had any decency what so ever, you would look to the the methodology of data collection and analysis before making comment.

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Your dismissive characterization of me is unfair and incorrect. If anyone is being dishonest here it is you.

No, it is you that is being dishonest.

 
I think homosexuality and lesbians is something that IS natural, it may not be appealing and it isnt to me, but if it is part of nature, so be it, let it live and be respected.
 
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I resent that.

What conservative board members have ever advocated violence against gays? I certainly haven't. I do believe a marraige should be between a man and a woman but I would never support any act of violence against gay people.

There is a huge difference between disagreeing with someone over their position on a specific issue and wishing violence on those you disagree with. I'll argue on this issue all day long but a heated debate is hardly approaching violence.

You might think there is a "huge difference" but the effects on gay people are much the same at the end of the day. People such as yourself, social conservatives, Bush and his supporters, and of course the clergy are at least partly responsible (if indirectly) for the upswing of violence against gays and lesbians during 2003 and 2004.


Gay-Hate Crimes Down
by 365Gay.com Newscenter Staff

May 19, 2006 - 1:00 pm ET

(New York City) Hate crimes against members of LGBT communities nationwide fell 13 percent in 2005 from all-time highs in the two previous years a new report shows.

The study, released by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs and fourteen of its members across the country, still found there were almost 2,000 hate-related incidents in thirteen major cities including New York, Chicago, and San Francisco.

The annual NCAVP report is compiled by agencies that deal with LGBT victims of hate crimes. It is considered more accurate than one published by the FBI which relies on law enforcement reports of such crimes rather than victim service data.

Many LGBT crime victims are reluctant report incidents to police.

The NCAVP survey found anti-LGBT violence fell from 2,270 in 2004 to 1,985 in 2005.

Included in the decline in incidents for the year, was a 15% decrease in anti-LGBT murders in reporting regions - falling from 13 in 2004 to 11 in 2005.

But not every part of the country found LGBT-bias crimes down. Cleveland, Houston, Massachusetts, and Vermont reported slight increases.

One of the reasons LGBT crime increased in 2003 - 2004 was the use anti-gay-marriage amendments in a number of states, and the so-called federal marriage amendment, as a campaign tool by conservative Republicans. In addition the profile of gays was raised in the media as a result of the Supreme Court ruling overturning sodomy laws and the decision by the high court in Massachusetts to permit same-sex marriage.

?This year?s report can be viewed as an has to be viewed as an indication that after almost two years of wholesale attack on LGBT individuals, communities and families, 2005 offered a respite of sorts for our community's experience with hate violence,? said Clarence Patton, NCAVP leader and executive director of the New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project.

?In the last two editions of this report was all too clear that with respect to violence, the nation's LGBT communities had entered a very new, and very dangerous era in which all of us were under attack at levels not seen in recent years," continued Patton.

But he warned that 2006 may see an increase in crimes against gays.

" The fact is that LGBT people are once again slated to be "on the ballot" again in a number of states in the 2006 election season and Senator Frist (the Senate Majority Leader) plans to take action on the Federal Marriage Amendment in early June, setting off another round of political bashing of our community that will no doubt be accompanied by the cultural and physical bashing we experienced across the country in 2003 and 2004," Patton said.


©365Gay.com 2006

The reason hate crimes against gays may go up is because you gays keep pushing your beliefs on us. On this forum I?ve seen so many times where you put your 2 gay cents into a topic just to broadcast your gayness. I could care less about gays but if you keep pushing into kids events like the White House Easter egg hunt I?m going to push back, not with violence but with my vote.
 
Originally posted by: HBalzer
The reason hate crimes against gays may go up is because you gays keep pushing your beliefs on us.

Do you mean gay people continue to express their opinons in a constitutional democracy which values freedom of speech?

Originally posted by: HBalzer
On this forum I?ve seen so many times where you put your 2 gay cents into a topic just to broadcast your gayness

I suppose you're posting in this thread just to broadcast your straightness.

Originally posted by: HBalzer
I could care less about gays but if you keep pushing into kids events like the White House Easter egg hunt

Same-sex couples took their children along to that event - what's the problem?

Originally posted by: HBalzer
I?m going to push back, not with violence but with my vote.
 
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: HBalzer
The reason hate crimes against gays may go up is because you gays keep pushing your beliefs on us.

Do you mean gay people continue to express their opinons in a constitutional democracy which values freedom of speech?

-Funny when you express your opinions its free speech when we express ours we are on the verge of violence.

Originally posted by: HBalzer
On this forum I?ve seen so many times where you put your 2 gay cents into a topic just to broadcast your gayness

I suppose you're posting in this thread just to broadcast your straightness.

-Posting about my straightness in a thread on homosexuality is slightly different then injecting homosexuality in a random off topic thread that has nothing to do with sex.

Originally posted by: HBalzer
I could care less about gays but if you keep pushing into kids events like the White House Easter egg hunt

Same-sex couples took their children along to that event - what's the problem?

-Yes but hey had to tell the media and wear rainbow shirts. Same-sex couples want to go to the egg hunt with their kid go, like everyone else.

Originally posted by: HBalzer
I?m going to push back, not with violence but with my vote.

 
Originally posted by: thraashman
Tolerance, not in Russia!

This sounds far too much like what some of the conservative people on this board want to see here in the US. How far off are we from doing this if we're trying to write an amendment into the consititution to inhibit the rights of gay people?

what conservative people on this board want to see this? don't be a jerk. :|
 
Originally posted by: aidanjm


Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
So don't you dare try to pass me off as being unreasonable or dishonst.

You are not a decent person. You ARE dishonest not to mention bigoted.
I'm going to leave the rest of your pap alone but I'm not going to sit for the personal attacks. Pulling out the biggot card on someone who disagrees with you is a cowardly thing to do. You're no different that the folks who want to pull the race card and hope the mere intimidation factor of being called a name will force them to end the argument. I don't play that game.

You are using standard conservative rhetoric ("gay activist group") to cast doubt on the validity of the group's findings. This is just a lazy appeal to authority. If you had any decency what so ever, you would look to the the methodology of data collection and analysis before making comment.
No, actually I said point-blank that you shouldn't take their statistics as accurate. No rhetoric required.


No, it is you that is being dishonest.
Am not
Are too
Am not
Are too :roll:
 
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: thraashman
Tolerance, not in Russia!

This sounds far too much like what some of the conservative people on this board want to see here in the US. How far off are we from doing this if we're trying to write an amendment into the consititution to inhibit the rights of gay people?

what conservative people on this board want to see this? don't be a jerk. :|

While I fully believe the majority of conservatives would say they don't advocate violence and truly believe it. There are at least a few who have made statements previously that makes me think they smiled to themselves when they read this article. Hell, in this very thread someone made this statement
The reason hate crimes against gays may go up is because you gays keep pushing your beliefs on us
that statement has alot of anger in it, and anger, hate, and violence are all very linked things.
 
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