Gay Marriage

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JACKDRUID

Senior member
Nov 28, 2007
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Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: JACKDRUID
Originally posted by: brandonb
It really has nothing to do with religion.

Its not bigot Chritians wanting to kick gays in the balls.

It comes down to this. Marriage is a concept from the bible.

blatenly incorrect!

chinese have had marriage for thousands of years, probably before the bible was writen.

actually your the one who is wrong.....if.....
if you believe that Adam and Eve were the first 2 people put on the earth......
then it was a biblical first......because God made Eve for Adam..thus marriage.

btw--this is just a clarification of how the people whop oppose this issue think!

Tou need to know these things in order to debate and discuss with these people( as in those who would deny the right of marriage to the gay community) in a manner which they understand.

religion vs culture is what many religions fear, because each culture/religion have their own version of adams and eves.

to Buddhism, marriage is a cycle. Adam and Eve is being defined as the start of a single cycle with many cycles existed before them.

but the fact remains, Chinese have not known the existance of Bible for thousands of years, yet they have always had marriage.

 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
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Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Possessed Freak
My issue with marriage rights is because there are federal bonuses to being married (IRS). There are other fiscal bonuses to marriage (health insurance coverage comes to mind). Why should some states impress their views to multi-state companies and Federal laws? It is with that view that I feel one standard must be used. If you marry in State X, does State Y recognize it? Does Company Z recognize it? Does the Federal level recognize it? If they are *forced* to recognize it, then there should be a single standard. Otherwise, if the states all want their own views on marriage, then companies/other states/fed should NOT be forced to recognize it.

I am not slanted one way or the other, but I *really* have a problem with the double standards that exist with State Rights impressing themselves beyond their borders.

First off there is a Marriage penalty too.

Secondly gay have the same right to marry that I do. Saying otherwise is just semantics/ spin/BS.

If you read my responses carefully (as they have always been on this forum), you will find I made no comment on if I am pro or anti gay marriage. My statement is such that I am anti states pushing their agenda on something larger then itself.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Originally posted by: bozack
Let me slow it down for you a little....barring scientific advancements such as invitro...there must be both a penis and a vagina involved in procreating....simple

Oh you are precious. OK, both a penis and a vagina are needed for procreation. Well done. This point is only relevant if we can say that legalizing gay marriage will end heterosexual procreation. That's a pretty bold claim to make. But let's investigate.

In America, miscegenation laws existed in many states that prevented people from marrying outside their race. These laws were struck down as unConstitutional in 1967. Despite this, most people continued to marry within their own race. Sure, some blacks married whites, but for the most part, a voluntary segregation within marriage is still the norm in our society. You certainly didn't have 100% of the population rush out and marry someone whose skin was a different shade than their own.

The Netherlands, Belgium, Canada, Norway and Spain all have legalized same sex marriage. When we look at the statistics for those countries, we don't see a precipitous drop in opposite sex marriages, nor do we see a significant reduction in birth rate. In fact, Spain's birth rate has actually increased since legalizing gay marriage. The United States, on the other hand, has had a birth rate that has steadily dropped for over two decades, despite same-sex marriage being illegal in most states for the majority of that time.

No data supports a claim that legalizing same-sex marriage actually causes straight people to stop procreating.

So, why don't you explain to the class how legalizing gay marriage has any noticeable effect on the birth rate?
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
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Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Still, it would be nice to have that scientific proof to throw back in someone's face when they said the "natural way" of raising children was superior.

The natural way may or may not be "superior" to the vetting process homosexual couples must undergo in order to have children, but it is as you said what nature intended.

I love this one. "What nature intended"... An argument embraced by the religious right when gay marriage or abortion is the topic of discussion, but conveniently ignored when talking about evolution or how God made us to be the greatest of all his creation. If conservatives are so desperate to protect the natural order of things, how come you find so few of the religious right actively involved in the conservation movement? Or is conservation just unnatural? They deny evolution, so you can't even claim that they're in favor of destroying habitat so animals can evolve quicker... Maybe they're just trying to hasten God's will.

And what did nature intend anyway? I was lucky enough to travel to the Galapagos Islands in 8th Grade. The archipelago is a haven for seabirds, a place where many species go to breed and raise their chicks as it is free from land-based predators. We happened to go during the season when the boobies and albatross were rearing their chicks (there is little in the world uglier than a moulting albatross). Our guide, Rolondo, had grown up in Ecuador and had been a tour guide in the Galapagos since his teens. The depth of knowledge he had about the particulars of the species endemic to the islands was fascinating, as was his ability to recall stories about virtually any species of bird making off with a tourist's hat.

On the first day, we visited Genovesa, where we were delighted to find a colony of Blue Footed Boobies. Rolondo was busy telling us about the mating habits of the birds, and happened to pick out a couple nearby engaged in a courtship dance. While we stood fascinated by the bizarre display, Rolondo began to laugh. As he mustered the words to address our confusion, he began with, "Well, I don't want to offend anybody, we occasionally get some Americans who aren't comfortable with this... these birds are both male."

I, being raised by lesbians and accompanied by a lesbian, was not shocked. But some of our party were, at this point, incredibly confused. "Wait," asked an elderly British man. "Are we to understand that these birds are... homosexual?" "Of course," replied Rolondo, "It's actually surprisingly frequent in the mating pairs that we see in the boobie populations." Obviously his use of the term "mating" was a bit suspect, but the point was clear; boobies have caught "the gay."

So it's clear that homosexuality exists in nature outside of humans. But we're not just talking about homosexuality now, are we? We're talking about gays raising offspring. That's a whole different bag of worms. And for that, I'm going to take us 100 miles south, to the island of Española.

We visited Española on our last day in the islands, to visit the colonies of albatross raising their chicks. Rolondo told us how albatross are one of the few species on Earth that mate for life. Despite spending months apart at sea, albatross can return to the same breeding grounds and remember their mate through an intricate dance the two duplicate. And, like the boobies, some albatross are totally gay.

As we walked along the path, large albatross nests and ugly, ugly albatross goslings (or whatever the hell they're called) on either side of us. Rolondo stopped us in front of an empty nest, dismayed that the pair that shared it were not around. Apparently, one of the breeding pairs of albatrosses had met with an unfortunate fate; it is unknown if one or both parents had died, or simply flown off, but for whatever reason, a young albatross was abandoned before it could fend for itself. Normally this equals a dead albatross chick. But apparently, one of the gay couples, unable to lay fertile eggs, had taken it upon themselves to raise the chick. The gay albatross adopted a baby to keep it from dying.

Gay adoption exists in nature.

So, getting back to that question of what "nature intends"... What, pray tell, does nature intend? To reproduce and pass on genes? Gays aren't going to do that anyway, and they exist in species besides humans, so it's not purely a question of free will. If nature intends that genes are passed on, then a gay couple raising a straight baby to reproductive age is more in line with what nature intends than if that baby were to die, wouldn't you agree?

But that argument is academic anyway, since, when it comes down to it, nature doesn't intend anything. We like to attach intention to the workings of the world because we ultimately all would like a satisfactory answer to the question, "Why are we here?" that doesn't contain, "random chance." But nature doesn't intend anything for us. It doesn't intend anything for the boobies. It doesn't intend anything because nature is just a word that we use to describe the overwhelming complexity of a diverse biosphere that we simply cannot grasp. Life doesn't have a purpose. It doesn't need one. The purpose is ours.


What a great post... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,985
31,539
146
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: JACKDRUID
Originally posted by: brandonb
It really has nothing to do with religion.

Its not bigot Chritians wanting to kick gays in the balls.

It comes down to this. Marriage is a concept from the bible.

blatenly incorrect!

chinese have had marriage for thousands of years, probably before the bible was writen.

actually your the one who is wrong.....if.....
if you believe that Adam and Eve were the first 2 people put on the earth......
then it was a biblical first......because God made Eve for Adam..thus marriage.

btw--this is just a clarification of how the people whop oppose this issue think!

Tou need to know these things in order to debate and discuss with these people( as in those who would deny the right of marriage to the gay community) in a manner which they understand.

OK, so then it appeared in the Torah some ~2k years prior to the Bible.

EDIT: btw, I'm just adding to your argument.
 

JACKDRUID

Senior member
Nov 28, 2007
729
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Originally posted by: brandonb Marriage is a concept from the bible. It's a union between man, woman, and God! Thats the definition. Not a union between man and man or woman and woman and the state.

its a concept of union between people loving each other.

shame on you for taking the concept literally. Bible is FULL of errors because its writen by human, its an universally known fact. its a shame that you ( and many others) who believe it throughly, yet fail to follow through it in concept.
 

DefDC

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2003
1,858
1
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<aggravation>
While Christians may be the dominate religion in the US, we are NOT a Christian country. Christianity, or any other religion, is NOT the official religion of the US, so we can toss any religious viewpoint from the start.

(And if people have a problem with that, have the Christians start a line to ban the death penalty, because "THOU SHALT NOT KILL". No line? Then shut up.)

Marriage can be religious or secular, in this country. Both grant non-religious LEGAL rights. I do NOT believe that a church should have to allow gays to be married if they're not a member of their church. However, gays should be allowed to be legally MARRIED and have it recognized in any state.

Why is there an argument?

Do people only believe in religious freedom as long as it pertains to their narrow view? (Sadly, we know the answer)

While we're on the point, is being gay natural?

Well, as religious viewpoints are based on faith, we can throw them all away. Are there gay people? Yes. Are they natural? Yes. Do many of them claimed to have been born this way? Yes. Was any supernatural deciphering needed to gain this viewpoint? No.

This stuff really isn't that hard.

</aggravation>
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,985
31,539
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Originally posted by: JACKDRUID
Originally posted by: brandonb Marriage is a concept from the bible. It's a union between man, woman, and God! Thats the definition. Not a union between man and man or woman and woman and the state.

its a concept of union between people loving each other.

shame on you for taking the concept literally. Bible is FULL of errors because its writen by human, its an universally known fact. its a shame that you ( and many others) who believe it throughly, yet fail to follow through it in concept.

I cna understand the sentiment though. History is rife with periods of concessions and revisions that fundamentalists have simply had to accept in the light of human progress. It's never easy for them, and what seems like such a simple concept for the rational progressives, is very hard to comprehend for the die-hard fundies.

Honestly, very few of them would accept many of the rules you will still find in the Bible: right to own slaves, the various declarations of proper meat consumption, what is required/restricted of a woman during her monthly (always gives me a chuckle)....

This type of tunnel vision will eventually disappear, as it always has, as the founders of this country intended for rule-by-Bible to disappear. It will happen, it takes time. Hell, it took some 100+ years, but even JP-2 admitted that Darwin was right.

Staggering, when you consider that it was after even this, and 5 CENTURIES later that the RCC finally exonerated Galileo.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,985
31,539
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Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Still, it would be nice to have that scientific proof to throw back in someone's face when they said the "natural way" of raising children was superior.

Allright, so I guess the American Psychological Association would be considered a legitimate source.

Quick conclusion

Tons of resources and it collects all of the major studies.

Of course...someone here is bound to label the APA a "liberal machine founded for the sole purpose of destroying God and America."

re-quoting myself here as I imagine the late night posting of these links regarding children of gay parents would have gotten lost in the early morning pissing contest.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
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Originally posted by: bobcpg
The best rational to NOT let them marry in the eyes of the Gov't is because the Gov't have a duty to make sure we grow and prosper. Like it or not, 2 men or 2 women can not have a baby together. Yeah, women can get artificially pregnant but science proves, as an overall effect, it is best for human kids to grow up with parents of both genders, not to mention its not natural.

Going with this logic, the Gov't has basis to encourage marriage between 1 woman and 1 man.

Remember, when arguing issues like this one, logic has no emotion. While I believe everyone should have broad and equal freedoms in the US logic wins out this time.

But what you are overlooking is that if government extends marriage (and its benefits) to same-sex couples, that does absolutely nothing to discourage straight couples from marrying. Thus, straight couples would still be encouraged to have babies. The only difference is that you'd have ADDITIONAL couples marrying.

So using your "logic" (and no emotion), how can you possibly argue that denying marriage benefits to same-sex couples in any way interferes with our "growing and prospering?"

By the way, saying "its not natural" is the height of emotionalism. Hamburgers aren't natural. Modern pharmaceuticals aren't natural. Surgery isn't natural. Eyeglasses, automobiles, movies, books - none of these things are "natural." So how come you don't object to them?

And, in fact, homosexuality is entirely natural. It's been documented to exist in all mammalian species. If it weren't "natural," how come it's so damn common?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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Originally posted by: bobcpg
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: bobcpg
The best rational to NOT let them marry in the eyes of the Gov't is because the Gov't have a duty to make sure we grow and prosper. Like it or not, 2 men or 2 women can not have a baby together. Yeah, women can get artificially pregnant but science proves, as an overall effect, it is best for human kids to grow up with parents of both genders, not to mention its not natural.

Going with this logic, the Gov't has basis to encourage marriage between 1 woman and 1 man.

Remember, when arguing issues like this one, logic has no emotion. While I believe everyone should have broad and equal freedoms in the US logic wins out this time.

....

I hate that you tried to use this "logic" to argue against gay marriage. :)

continuing with your "logic" the elderly (impotent) or genetically ill/mutated should not be allowed to married either.

are you new here?

Thanks for the Smiley face.

You are correct with continuing with my "logic".

Problem is how do you tell. I mean, yeah we have an Idea on when people are impotent but I assure you that many times people are told they are impotent only to find out they are not. Again, someone who you say is "genetically ill/mutated" can still have perfectly healthy children, in fact it might be that gene combo that takes humans to the next evolutionary step.

A woman who's had a hysterectomy will NEVER have child. Never. And there's never been a single documented case of a woman in her late sixties or beyond having a child "naturally." Never.

So by your "reasoning," such women should be barred from marrying. Furthermore, any married woman who is past the age of 65 should be forced to divorce, since her "purpose" in marriage - having babies - is no longer viable.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
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Originally posted by: Mursilis
Quick question to all in favor of gay marriage: What are your thoughts on polygamy (presuming it's among consentual adults)?

Personally, I can't seen any logically consistent reasons to be against polygamy while still being for gay marriage, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on the question.

I can: As I've pointed out in other posts, almost all documented polygamous communities in America in modern times have been strongly associated with child-abuse: Forcing under-age girls to get married, have sex, and have babies, and casting out under-age boys from the group (to reduce competition for scarce females).

I have no objection in theory to truly consensual polygamy among fully-adult individuals. Unfortunately, polygamy as practiced in the U.S. in modern times has almost never been like that. It's a few powerful men with harems of women, trading their young female offspring to each other and/or providing them to their select male heirs. Child-abuse is part and parcel to the practice. That's a huge social cost.

I see absolutely no social cost to allowing same-sex couples to marry.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
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Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Quick question to all in favor of gay marriage: What are your thoughts on polygamy (presuming it's among consentual adults)?

Personally, I can't seen any logically consistent reasons to be against polygamy while still being for gay marriage, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on the question.

I can: As I've pointed out in other posts, almost all documented polygamous communities in America in modern times have been strongly associated with child-abuse: Forcing under-age girls to get married, have sex, and have babies, and casting out under-age boys from the group (to reduce competition for scarce females).

I have no objection in theory to truly consensual polygamy among fully-adult individuals. Unfortunately, polygamy as practiced in the U.S. in modern times has almost never been like that. It's a few powerful men with harems of women, trading their young female offspring to each other and/or providing them to their select male heirs. Child-abuse is part and parcel to the practice. That's a huge social cost.

I see absolutely no social cost to allowing same-sex couples to marry.

Alcohol use as practiced in the US annually leads to thousands of deaths, many more injuries, and untold costs in property damage and required medical care, but I don't think that's a good reason to make it illegal.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Not to rain on your parade of thoughts.....
But the concept that as you put it-- the notion of "one man, one woman," for a successful family if it is.<-----has been shot down a long time ago...

Only the religious bigots continue to attempt to use this as a litmus test....

Well that's true. And given that the religious zealots are willing to believe in young Earth creationism over the scientifically tested theory of evolution, I suppose no amount of scientific study will convince them that homosexuality is anything but evil. But these are the same morons who pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to follow and which they can ignore, so fuck 'em.

Still, it would be nice to have that scientific proof to throw back in someone's face when they said the "natural way" of raising children was superior.

Allright, so I guess the American Psychological Association would be considered a legitimate source.

Quick conclusion

Tons of resources and it collects all of the major studies.

Of course...someone here is bound to label the APA a "liberal machine founded for the sole purpose of destroying God and America."

:thumbsup:

I did miss this one amidst the morning furor, but that's a great resource. And, of course, the conservatives conveniently ignore the study, as it shoots down their entire argument. What are the odds?
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
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Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Quick question to all in favor of gay marriage: What are your thoughts on polygamy (presuming it's among consentual adults)?

Personally, I can't seen any logically consistent reasons to be against polygamy while still being for gay marriage, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on the question.

I can: As I've pointed out in other posts, almost all documented polygamous communities in America in modern times have been strongly associated with child-abuse: Forcing under-age girls to get married, have sex, and have babies, and casting out under-age boys from the group (to reduce competition for scarce females).

I have no objection in theory to truly consensual polygamy among fully-adult individuals. Unfortunately, polygamy as practiced in the U.S. in modern times has almost never been like that. It's a few powerful men with harems of women, trading their young female offspring to each other and/or providing them to their select male heirs. Child-abuse is part and parcel to the practice. That's a huge social cost.

I see absolutely no social cost to allowing same-sex couples to marry.

Two biggest problems with polygamy that you see at least in the USA is :
1- You have some sick f***(s) on a power trip looking to f*** a bunch of little girls and get away with it. They create a small community that they control with a iron fist and kick out anyone who will threaten his/their control. This is mental and physical abuse.
2- It's only the men who can have multiple partners. This turns woman into objects and leaves a lot of single men who will be very angry and with some very clear targets for their anger (those men with 10 wives and the gov that allows it). Prostitution will explode, probably human trafficking to fill the demand and single males going over seas to bring back a wife (pity those against immigration), or just leaving the country all together.

Polygamy with equality and normal people practicing it might work. But I don't see it taking off big time even if it becomes legal, how many people want a second partner beyond a one night stand because a cheeseburger tastes so damn good if all you ever get is stake without anything to spice it up. But this raises the problem of those who do want it, how many of those will be the ones out on a power trip with love nothing but a afterthought.

Now that I think about it, polygamy and homosexual marriage are two totally different things, and I don't see how people tie one to the other.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Quick question to all in favor of gay marriage: What are your thoughts on polygamy (presuming it's among consentual adults)?

Personally, I can't seen any logically consistent reasons to be against polygamy while still being for gay marriage, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on the question.

I can: As I've pointed out in other posts, almost all documented polygamous communities in America in modern times have been strongly associated with child-abuse: Forcing under-age girls to get married, have sex, and have babies, and casting out under-age boys from the group (to reduce competition for scarce females).

I have no objection in theory to truly consensual polygamy among fully-adult individuals. Unfortunately, polygamy as practiced in the U.S. in modern times has almost never been like that. It's a few powerful men with harems of women, trading their young female offspring to each other and/or providing them to their select male heirs. Child-abuse is part and parcel to the practice. That's a huge social cost.

I see absolutely no social cost to allowing same-sex couples to marry.

Two biggest problems with polygamy that you see at least in the USA is :
1- You have some sick f***(s) on a power trip looking to f*** a bunch of little girls and get away with it. They create a small community that they control with a iron fist and kick out anyone who will threaten his/their control. This is mental and physical abuse.
2- It's only the men who can have multiple partners. This turns woman into objects and leaves a lot of single men who will be very angry and with some very clear targets for their anger (those men with 10 wives and the gov that allows it). Prostitution will explode, probably human trafficking to fill the demand and single males going over seas to bring back a wife (pity those against immigration), or just leaving the country all together.

Polygamy with equality and normal people practicing it might work. But I don't see it taking off big time even if it becomes legal, how many people want a second partner beyond a one night stand because a cheeseburger tastes so damn good if all you ever get is stake without anything to spice it up. But this raises the problem of those who do want it, how many of those will be the ones out on a power trip with love nothing but a afterthought.

Now that I think about it, polygamy and homosexual marriage are two totally different things, and I don't see how people tie one to the other.

1. Legalizing polygamy will no more allow men to fuck little girls any more than legalizing gay marriage will allow gays to fuck little boys. That line of reasoning makes you exactly like those opposed to gay marriage.

2. Why would it only be legal for men? Again, you yourself are guilty of exactly what the anti-gay marriage crowd is guilty of.

As for how many people want to marry multiple spouses, why does it matter? If it's simply a numbers game, then until gays are in the majority maybe they shouldn't be allowed to marry either? Why change the rules for a tiny minority?

You're such a hyprocite.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,916
6,792
126
1. Legalizing polygamy will no more allow men to fuck little girls any more than legalizing gay marriage will allow gays to fuck little boys. That line of reasoning makes you exactly like those opposed to gay marriage.

2. Why would it only be legal for men? Again, you yourself are guilty of exactly what the anti-gay marriage crowd is guilty of.

As for how many people want to marry multiple spouses, why does it matter? If it's simply a numbers game, then until gays are in the majority maybe they shouldn't be allowed to marry either? Why change the rules for a tiny minority?

You're such a hyprocite.

What have you got against little girls? How come they aren't allowed to marry old men even if they want to. You're such a hypocrite.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
1. Legalizing polygamy will no more allow men to fuck little girls any more than legalizing gay marriage will allow gays to fuck little boys. That line of reasoning makes you exactly like those opposed to gay marriage.

2. Why would it only be legal for men? Again, you yourself are guilty of exactly what the anti-gay marriage crowd is guilty of.

As for how many people want to marry multiple spouses, why does it matter? If it's simply a numbers game, then until gays are in the majority maybe they shouldn't be allowed to marry either? Why change the rules for a tiny minority?

You're such a hyprocite.

What have you got against little girls? How come they aren't allowed to marry old men even if they want to. You're such a hypocrite.

Don't worry Moonbeam, no little girls are interested in you anyway. You'll have to stick to hentai.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,139
236
106
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
1. Legalizing polygamy will no more allow men to fuck little girls any more than legalizing gay marriage will allow gays to fuck little boys. That line of reasoning makes you exactly like those opposed to gay marriage.

2. Why would it only be legal for men? Again, you yourself are guilty of exactly what the anti-gay marriage crowd is guilty of.

As for how many people want to marry multiple spouses, why does it matter? If it's simply a numbers game, then until gays are in the majority maybe they shouldn't be allowed to marry either? Why change the rules for a tiny minority?

You're such a hyprocite.

What have you got against little girls? How come they aren't allowed to marry old men even if they want to. You're such a hypocrite.

shit! you've come a long way in... :p

Nice post...

 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
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Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Oh you are precious. OK, both a penis and a vagina are needed for procreation. Well done. This point is only relevant if we can say that legalizing gay marriage will end heterosexual procreation. That's a pretty bold claim to make. But let's investigate....blah blah blah blah

Nice Strawman.....

My original post was:

The natural way may or may not be "superior" to the vetting process homosexual couples must undergo in order to have children, but it is as you said what nature intended.

I was talking only about procreation with that....but thanks for playing and glad I could get your panties in that much of a bunch, but hey, whatever you have to do to convince your self and others right?
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
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Originally posted by: BoberFett

1. Legalizing polygamy will no more allow men to fuck little girls any more than legalizing gay marriage will allow gays to fuck little boys. That line of reasoning makes you exactly like those opposed to gay marriage.

2. Why would it only be legal for men? Again, you yourself are guilty of exactly what the anti-gay marriage crowd is guilty of.

As for how many people want to marry multiple spouses, why does it matter? If it's simply a numbers game, then until gays are in the majority maybe they shouldn't be allowed to marry either? Why change the rules for a tiny minority?

You're such a hyprocite.

Good post, honestly I fail to see why polygamy is an "issue" if all parties are consenting adults, especially given that so many are ready and willing to sanction homosexual marriage...my take is why allow one and not the other when everyone getting married is ok with the arrangement.

But personally I am glad I am not the product of such a relationship as I couldn't even fathom the torment those kids much endure.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: loki8481
the root of the argument against gay marriage is that some/many breeders find the idea of gay sex to be icky.

I do find gay sex icky, just as you find hetero sex icky. I also find the term "breeder" to be ridiculously moronic.

Of course, I have no problem with gay marriage, or gays in general. I have gay friends, gay relatives, whatever. Doesn't mean I have any desire to stick my wang up their butts. It's absolutely disgusting to me.

Pretty much all straight people find the notion icky (again, no different than your notion of hetero sex), ...and so your comment is idiotic.

No, it's not. His comment is right. From talking to so many on this, most I talk to who oppose gay marriage, IMO, are motivated in part by their 'ick' reaction to gay sex.

So he's right on. Your ability to have the 'cik' reaction, which I agree is the norm for heterosexuals, from your position on their right to marry is good, but not universal.

But that's just it....Most do have the ick factor. But that alone certainly is not what causes the prejudice.

To me, I can only imagine that it comes from some in-born hate. And as another poster mentioned, the antiquated and very real notion that homosexuality=child molestation.
Hell, once it was no longer "cool" to use the Bible as an excuse to hate on Blacks, the fundies had to latch on to some other boogie man to keep their hate-fueled life forces flowing.

I think we all have this "ick," on either side. therefore, the greatest opposition must come from elsewhere.

I am not understanding your argument against the 'ick' factor being a major part of it.

I'd list the top factors as the 'ick' factor; the sheepish following of the political movement (party and church) against gays; the fear of the unknown, an 'us vs. them' mentality.

Because of the anti-gay emotion these things cause, then the reasons to defend it are invented - 'it's unnatural', 'tradition', 'threat to marriage', 'bad for kids', and so on.

Other factors can include insecurity in their own sexuality, that somehow 'tolerating' gays makes a man less of a man, and so on.

The reason why, as the 'arguments' are shot down one at a time, the person doesn't change their view but just races for a new argument - finally just ending the discussion on a 'they have a right to their opinion' claim, is because their emotion isn't driven by the rational issues.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Oh you are precious. OK, both a penis and a vagina are needed for procreation. Well done. This point is only relevant if we can say that legalizing gay marriage will end heterosexual procreation. That's a pretty bold claim to make. But let's investigate....blah blah blah blah

Nice Strawman.....

My original post was:

The natural way may or may not be "superior" to the vetting process homosexual couples must undergo in order to have children, but it is as you said what nature intended.

I was talking only about procreation with that....but thanks for playing and glad I could get your panties in that much of a bunch, but hey, whatever you have to do to convince your self and others right?

You said, and I quote, "I love the justification those in favor of this give...it is about as scripted as those who oppose it.... Let me slow it down for you a little....barring scientific advancements such as invitro...there must be both a penis and a vagina involved in procreating....simple." That's your entire post that I responded to. Prior to that, you said (again quoting), "The natural way may or may not be "superior" to the vetting process homosexual couples must undergo in order to have children, but it is as you said what nature intended."

First off, I never said that the natural way of procreating was what nature intended. Not once. In fact, in my initial response to you, I spent a page detailing not only examples of homosexuality in nature (nature's intent?), but also that I found the term "what nature intends" to be complete nonsense. Nature doesn't have intentions. Nature is a term that we use to describe the complexity of life in our biosphere. That's it.

So now you come at me with nonsense from left field about a penis and a vagina being necessary for procreation. I, against my better judgment, actually responded to the salient point from your reply (not the ad hominem attack, which I figured didn't deserve a logical counterpoint). Again, your claim, your words: "barring scientific advancements such as invitro...there must be both a penis and a vagina involved in procreating....simple." Which is true. But I didn't debate the truth of it, I debated the relevance. You see, that was the only factual claim you made in your post. My response was targeted towards exploring the relevance; after all, the only possible reason to bring up procreation in a thread about gay marriage is suggesting that gay marriage actually influences reproductive statistics. But it doesn't.

So tell me, oh wise one, who has so thoroughly bested me with wry wit and prose... why did you think the statement "there must be both a penis and a vagina involved in procreating....simple" was relevant to the discussion at hand? That's all I want to know. You had to have some justification for contributing that thought to this thread. What was your intent?
 

JACKDRUID

Senior member
Nov 28, 2007
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Originally posted by: ZzZGuyTwo biggest problems with polygamy that you see at least in the USA is :...

I believe the primary argument against polygamy is that it increases the likelyhood, that after generations, cousins / people with same gene may unknowingly marrying each other... result in children born with same harmful recessive genes from both parents.