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Gay marriage poll
- Thread starter Hulk
- Start date
Doesn't matter a lot but it matters. What if we called all spouses husbands? Why not have more words that mean different things? Wife means woman married to a man. Husband means man woman to a woman. X means woman married to a woman. Y means husband married to a husband. I like civil unions on linguistic grounds. Do I think it's very important? No.
Hulk
Diamond Member
Interesting remark. If we were choosing THE word to represent gay unions, then yes, only gays should vote for the word. But, we are discussing the USE of the word that has throughout history been reserved for heterosexual couples.
I don't understand what revoting slavery back in has to do with this? Slavery was wrong, by ANY name. I also believe that denying a group rights would also be wrong. But why is using a properly describing word wrong?
For example,
Is it wrong to call people who are so African Americans? Or Native Americans, or Italian Americans?
Or is this use of descriptive words also bigotry? I guess we should just use the term "people" to avoid being bigots.
Why can't people live how they want, and have a bit of normalcy to their lives? Why do they have to be different because it makes YOU feel better?
If it prevents ONE gay teenager from committing suicide to feel just a little bit better about themselves then its worth it.
If it prevents ONE gay teenager from committing suicide to feel just a little bit better about themselves then its worth it.
judasmachine
Diamond Member
as of right now it shows that 90% of people support their rights to marriage, with about 40% saying that it just shouldn't be called marriage.
So why is it being banned across the board all across the country?
So why is it being banned across the board all across the country?
Its not a word, its a society telling someone who feels differently that they are an anomoly and they shouldn't exist. This is a problem thrust upon them by a society with much deeper problems.
Why can't people in a 'free' country live in a manner that they prefer which is not physically harmful.
Explain your stance, how would calling all unions 'marriages' have a negative effect on society as a whole? Do you feel this way about all minorities?
Personally I seriously doubt that there will be 'more' gay people if its okay to get married, I think those people who've been held back will be able to live happier lives. I think the 'mainstream' is safe.
Just so you know, more teen gays commit suicide than any other demographic. Ever known any?
Why can't people in a 'free' country live in a manner that they prefer which is not physically harmful.
Explain your stance, how would calling all unions 'marriages' have a negative effect on society as a whole? Do you feel this way about all minorities?
Personally I seriously doubt that there will be 'more' gay people if its okay to get married, I think those people who've been held back will be able to live happier lives. I think the 'mainstream' is safe.
Just so you know, more teen gays commit suicide than any other demographic. Ever known any?
Hulk
Diamond Member
OgreFade,
First I want to thank you for your polite tone and thought provoking discussion.
I'll answer your questions one by one:
"Free Country" - Yes, it is a free country and I think people should have equal rights, hence legal unions, and all rights heterosexuals enjoy. Only use a different descriptor.
Effect on Society - I do not want to mainstream an alternative lifestyle. Do you need further explanation than that? Male/male, female/female couples are alternative lifestyles, have been and always will be. I have no problem with them. In fact, I know lots of gays, and almost without exception, they are great people. But, I also think that far more children with be further gender confused at ages when they are only beginning to understand their sexuality. Here's an example,
When kids are young, they naturally gravitate to their own sex. If boys (or girls) realize that it's just as valid to marry a same sex partner, perhaps they won't feel the need to interact with the opposite sex? Adn this could lead to other gender identity and psychological problems down the line. If a kid is genuinely gay, there is no problem explaining that legal union options are available. Why do we have to change our social mores when all of the legal rights are the same for a small group when the whole will benifit from a distinction in terms?
That's just one example, but the point is that kids are VERY impressionable and need clear distinctions. Marriage=man and woman, cival union (or some other term)=male/male or female/female
Either way it's up to the parents to NOT raise bigoted kids, not a distinction in terms.
The mainstream is safe - That's your opinion. Look at failing states like Holland to see the effects of rampant liberalism and socialism.
Do I feel this way about all minorities? - I don't understand your question? Are you saying we shouldn't call groups like Italian Americans, or Native Americans, etc.. separate names? If so, then I disagree with you, I don't think there's a problem with differentiating where people come from. If you want to get rid of these terms that's your opinion and that's fine.
Again, we're arguing about what to call gay unions recognized by States, that's it. I'm not talking about denying gays ANY rights that non-gays have. Let's be clear about that. It's only the word. Do you really understand that? We're arguing about a word. Gays can use ANY word they want, any word, just not marriage. As I said that mainstreams an alternative lifestyle. Then there are the religious aspects of course, which I haven't even mentioned.
What are gays so afraid of? Why can't they just come up with another word, that only gays can use? Have their own "thing"? I think they would find greater acceptance by society as a whole by NOT trying to twist a word thousands of years old into a new meaning.
Okay, I see myself as a woman, even though I'm male. Why can't I use ladies restrooms? I'm more comfortable around women? Why am I denied that right?
Why can't I compete in female categories in sports? Why am I being descriminated against?
Why can't I marry 2 women instead of 1? That's another alternative lifestyle. Why is that right being denied me?
Why can't I marry my dog and have all legal rights applied?
Those are more societal problems that will ensue if gay marriages are called marriage.
By defining each type of union we can avoid all of this nonsense.
Finally, I worked as a high school teacher for many years and have seen many teen tragedies. In my experience they don't arise from agruments over word definitions, but from uncaring and insensitive kids and ignorant parents.
Thanks for a vigorous discussion!
I can understand most of your position. However I have differing opinions on portions of it.
The discriptor is part of the idea. The 'civil union' doesn't have the same ring. Its not just about being contractually noted by the government.
Married.. I think about my own marriage and how it changed my life. Its how I feel about it. Remember the gay people out there in this world are raised alot like the rest of us, and getting married and going ot weddings is a very special event, and so much effort goes into it. Then they... can't get married.. they have to .. do something else.. what the heck? They know how they feel about eachother, but theres nothing there to .. hold on too. Gays still get boyfriends and girlfriends, but they don't get wives, and husbands.. what the heck? Are we to change these words too?
Alot of kids know they're gay very young, my brother in law knew he was gay at a very young age, and it had nothing to do with the fact that his mother was gay. She didn't come out until he was 15. He was out before she was. They lived in the standard household arrangement as well, Mother Father, siblings. Yet here he is gay, 1 out of 5. I don't think gender identity is as ambiguous as just growing up around it. I think there is quite a bit of biology behind it as well.
The mainstream is safe was a comment based upon the fact that I don't think there will be a significant increase the numbers of gay people based upon people being informed about it.
I can understand your examples, but in this case most people in this country do follow biological norms, males competing with males, females with females, and biologically compatable people are the only ones that mate (aka no dog/human marriages). Also there are other countries where a restroom is a restroom and it doesn't matter what gender goes in. Personally I prefer the family bathrooms where me, and my wife can use it, and we can change the baby while we're there.
If you've seen tragedies as a teacher then wouldn't you do your best to let those people afflicted by bigots, and ignorant people have an easier life?
I think its interesting to remember that not long ago the ancient civilizations thought that there was only one gender. The romans thought females were weaker 'males' who didn't have the strength to keep their "parts" on the outside. Even more interesting things can be found by checking history. Romans didn't want to go outside of their status level either. That meant the males tended to have activities with other "powerful males".
Interesting.
Regardless in the end, why is it that we ban anyone from using a word to describe themselves? People have rights to be who they want to be, if its legal to change your name call yourself englebert humperdink then why can't a couple be 'married' in the end its still two people being together.
The discriptor is part of the idea. The 'civil union' doesn't have the same ring. Its not just about being contractually noted by the government.
Married.. I think about my own marriage and how it changed my life. Its how I feel about it. Remember the gay people out there in this world are raised alot like the rest of us, and getting married and going ot weddings is a very special event, and so much effort goes into it. Then they... can't get married.. they have to .. do something else.. what the heck? They know how they feel about eachother, but theres nothing there to .. hold on too. Gays still get boyfriends and girlfriends, but they don't get wives, and husbands.. what the heck? Are we to change these words too?
Alot of kids know they're gay very young, my brother in law knew he was gay at a very young age, and it had nothing to do with the fact that his mother was gay. She didn't come out until he was 15. He was out before she was. They lived in the standard household arrangement as well, Mother Father, siblings. Yet here he is gay, 1 out of 5. I don't think gender identity is as ambiguous as just growing up around it. I think there is quite a bit of biology behind it as well.
The mainstream is safe was a comment based upon the fact that I don't think there will be a significant increase the numbers of gay people based upon people being informed about it.
I can understand your examples, but in this case most people in this country do follow biological norms, males competing with males, females with females, and biologically compatable people are the only ones that mate (aka no dog/human marriages). Also there are other countries where a restroom is a restroom and it doesn't matter what gender goes in. Personally I prefer the family bathrooms where me, and my wife can use it, and we can change the baby while we're there.
If you've seen tragedies as a teacher then wouldn't you do your best to let those people afflicted by bigots, and ignorant people have an easier life?
I think its interesting to remember that not long ago the ancient civilizations thought that there was only one gender. The romans thought females were weaker 'males' who didn't have the strength to keep their "parts" on the outside. Even more interesting things can be found by checking history. Romans didn't want to go outside of their status level either. That meant the males tended to have activities with other "powerful males".
Interesting.
Regardless in the end, why is it that we ban anyone from using a word to describe themselves? People have rights to be who they want to be, if its legal to change your name call yourself englebert humperdink then why can't a couple be 'married' in the end its still two people being together.
Called marriages by whom?
Some different scenarios:
Some house of religion lists a gay couple in their marriage register
Government issues gay couple marriage certificate
Gay couple goes around telling people they just got married
Actually...I personally wouldn't have a problem with any of them and would choose #1 if the decision were solely up to me.
However, as we're likely to only be given the choice in this country of #2 vs. #3, I will gladly take #2 as a compromise.
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