Gas with ethanol doesn't seem to last as long

[Rage187]

I think someone in another thread mentioned that cars specifically tuned for ethanol outlast gasoline. Guess what? My car is not tuned for ethanol, just like the other hundreds of millions of cars in the US.

 

[Paperdoc]

Ethanol has less energy per gallon, thus lower gas mileage. Just look at what people get with E85 vs. regular unleaded. But I doubt it would be very noticeable at 10% ethanol.

Don't get sucked in by the name. "E85" is NOT 85% Ethanol. It is 85% GASOLINE, and 15% Ethanol. In fact, until very recently, you could not buy "Gasohol" with over 10% Ethanol, even though many car makers label their engines compliant with "E85" fuels.

Could you tell the difference in gas mileage between 10% and 15% Ethanol? Yes, with careful documentation and a lot of study. But you'd have to quantify all the other influences on fuel mileage first, like the substantial effect of ambient temperature. Winter cold REALLY reduces mileage, and so do short trips vs. highway travel. I've tracked gas mileage every tankful on all my cars for many years. In any one car over a year, the result ranges quite a bit - the min is about 70% of "normal" max, and summer highway trips get 25% to 30% better than short trips around town. Against that kind of variation, measuring the mileage difference between 10% and 15% Ethanol in the gas is a challenge.

 

[fatpat268]

Don't get sucked in by the name. "E85" is NOT 85% Ethanol. It is 85% GASOLINE, and 15% Ethanol. In fact, until very recently, you could not buy "Gasohol" with over 10% Ethanol, even though many car makers label their engines compliant with "E85" fuels.

Could you tell the difference in gas mileage between 10% and 15% Ethanol? Yes, with careful documentation and a lot of study. But you'd have to quantify all the other influences on fuel mileage first, like the substantial effect of ambient temperature. Winter cold REALLY reduces mileage, and so do short trips vs. highway travel. I've tracked gas mileage every tankful on all my cars for many years. In any one car over a year, the result ranges quite a bit - the min is about 70% of "normal" max, and summer highway trips get 25% to 30% better than short trips around town. Against that kind of variation, measuring the mileage difference between 10% and 15% Ethanol in the gas is a challenge.

No. E85 is 85% ethanol. It slightly varies with winter and summer blends, but E85 is most definitely NOT 15% Ethanol by any stretch of the imagination.

Most gas stations have switched to a blend of 90 gas/10 ethanol or 85 gas/15 ethanol, and that's probably what you're thinking of. E85 is completely different.

But yea, I can tell the difference between the 10% blend and pure gas. I get about ~37mpg with the 10%, and whenever I fill up with the pure gas, I get ~39mpg. Not a huge difference, but it's there.

 

[5to1baby1in5]

Anyway, I think ethanol has proven it's uselessness as an alternative fuel. It requires a high energy input to produce and a low energy output in use. It's really there to bolster the US corn industry.

The Ethanol additive is not in there to replace the gasoline with an alternative fuel, it is there to oxygenate the fuel. Oxygenated fuel burns 'cleaner' so there are less Carbon Monoxide emissions. The additive helps the fuel burn more completely.

Remember when they were adding MTBE to the gas (late 80's, early 90's) as an additive? It didn't destroy soft parts in your carberator like Ethanol does, but it had a nasty habit of getting into the water supply through leaking gas tanks. Ethanol isn't quite as toxic as MTBE, so the refiners started using Ethanol as their only additive.

I agree that Ethanol is a worse (lower gas milage, corrosive to older vehicles) fuel than gasoline. If Ethanol didn't suck, then we would be have gas stations selling it for less than $1.00/gallon and driving the gasoline market into the dirt.

 

[DaTT]

Isn't E10 mandated by the province though? I don't think E85 is sold in Ontario. At least not in Toronto. I've never seen it. You can buy flex fuel vehicles though, but only through US automakers.

Anyway, I think ethanol has proven it's uselessness as an alternative fuel. It requires a high energy input to produce and a low energy output in use. It's really there to bolster the US corn industry.

91 Octane at any Shell station has zero ethanol

 

[Aikouka]

Cars run most efficiently when hot. Winter will give you worse mileage due to a cold engine, and increased time idling.

I think the best way to put it is that engines run better when at their "proper operating temperature". If I remember correctly, there's also a factor of the type of oil that you have in your engine. If I remember correctly, the higher the weight, the worse it is in the cold weather. I was considering that this morning when it has been in the high 20s or low 30s for the past few days and my car's starting has seemed a bit rougher.

Too hot is too hot though, and you'll have preignition problems. That why the internal combustion engine is so limited with regards to efficiency.

I really doubt that you're going to get warm enough for pre-ignition. That's usually a problem that you get from using too low of an octane rating for your gasoline ( the gasoline explodes under the pressure ) or an issue with things like carbon deposits on your cylinder walls.

It uses the gasoline to cool the engine.

I've never heard of this before. An engine is typically cooled using coolant (which is usually just water + anti-freeze).

You could lean out the mixture, and have a 50mpg car, but you'd burn up the engine within a few miles. That's also why you should use the lowest octane you can get away with. High octane fuel gives worse mileage because it burns cooler. It's used in high compression/turbo engines because it burns cooler(less efficiency) to prevent pinging.

If you lean out your mixture, your car should just see far reduced power (depending on how lean it is).

High octane gasoline is used in turbo-charged and high compression engines because higher octane gasoline will resist exploding under higher pressures. Both forced induction and high compression ratio engines will create higher cylinder pressures that necessitate gasoline that won't pre-ignite.

 

[LTC8K6]

Don't get sucked in by the name. "E85" is NOT 85% Ethanol. It is 85% GASOLINE, and 15% Ethanol.

That would be E15.

The number after E is the % of ethanol.

E100 being pure ethanol.

 

[Meghan54]

Don't get sucked in by the name. "E85" is NOT 85% Ethanol. It is 85% GASOLINE, and 15% Ethanol.

As was pointed out, you do not have a clue what you're talking about.

You have nooooo idea. 3 years ago, all I knew is a carburetor is something in the engine that has something to do with mixing fuel and air. Now, I can stall out in the middle of the hill, a few hundred yards from the house, reach into my tool box (that's built into tractors), tear down, rebuild carburetor on the side of the road, cleaning the crap out of the needles, and get it restarted, all within about 5 minutes.

Oh, but I do......try test driving a boat that the owner proudly boasts he as updated the fuel lines to alcohol resistant lines, only to neglect cleaning out the tank and not put in an inline fuel filter. And then get stuck in the middle of the lake miles from where you put in.

Learned the hard way, any boat with a motor made before the 1990's gets my ethanol kit box carried on board during test runs. Replacement fuel line, basic tools to disassemble a carb, carb cleaner, compressed air, etc. I've even gone as far as carrying a small 6 gal. portable gas tank if really unsure of the boat's fuel situation.

I know, believe me.

The Ethanol additive is not in there to replace the gasoline with an alternative fuel, it is there to oxygenate the fuel. Oxygenated fuel burns 'cleaner' so there are less Carbon Monoxide emissions. The additive helps the fuel burn more completely.

Remember when they were adding MTBE to the gas (late 80's, early 90's) as an additive? It didn't destroy soft parts in your carberator like Ethanol does, but it had a nasty habit of getting into the water supply through leaking gas tanks. Ethanol isn't quite as toxic as MTBE, so the refiners started using Ethanol as their only additive.

I agree that Ethanol is a worse (lower gas milage, corrosive to older vehicles) fuel than gasoline. If Ethanol didn't suck, then we would be have gas stations selling it for less than $1.00/gallon and driving the gasoline market into the dirt.

Actually, while ethanol has been used since the 1980's to oxygenate gas and it has replaced MTBE, the concentrations to do so were nowhere near the 10% concentrations that are being used to replace that fraction of gasoline these days. Of course, one could say our pitiful attempt at using ethanol at 10% of fuel mixtures is just pandering to the corn producing states.....thank the previous administrations for that.

 

[bobdole369]

91 Octane at any Shell station has zero ethanol

This isn't true.

 

[bobdole369]

Actually, while ethanol has been used since the 1980's to oxygenate gas and it has replaced MTBE, the concentrations to do so were nowhere near the 10% concentrations that are being used to replace that fraction of gasoline these days. Of course, one could say our pitiful attempt at using ethanol at 10% of fuel mixtures is just pandering to the corn producing states.....thank the previous administrations for that.

Precisely. The addition of 10% ethanol is sort of a way to pay for subsidizing corn farmers. Realistically - the E10 fuel that you use has less of an effect (if you were using E0 or marine fuel (typically 90 octane and labeled as 0% ethanol)) than time of day, outside temperature, your lead foot, traffic, and tire pressure.

In other words OP - it's all in your head.

But yea, I can tell the difference between the 10% blend and pure gas. I get about ~37mpg with the 10%, and whenever I fill up with the pure gas, I get ~39mpg. Not a huge difference, but it's there.

No, you can't. That much difference can be explained with any of the other factors described above. It is impossible outside a lab to actually quantify how much loss in fuel efficiency occurs in your vehicle. Too many variables.

However the difference between running on E85 and running on E10 - is typically around 10-15% loss in fuel economy. You are describing a 5.2% change (39-37mpg - within the error margin btw), this is significantly larger than the actual change in energy density and proven reduction between E0 and E10. If you draw a line out from the known E85 point - to E10 in terms of loss of fuel economy - you end up on the worst end at about:
15%/85 = x%/10
150/85=x
1.76% = x

That equates to less than a mile per gallon. You aren't measuring that and you can use that much fuel up on a bad traffic day.

 

[bobdole369]

No shit. This is why i buy gas from only 2 stations(Shell, Chevron) and then only the premium grade, its the only way to get no ethanol in your gas where i live.

1. Does your vehicle require premium?
2. What the hell are you talking about? Both Shell and Chevron pump E10 where I live in all grades.

 

[bfdd]

I think the best way to put it is that engines run better when at their "proper operating temperature". If I remember correctly, there's also a factor of the type of oil that you have in your engine. If I remember correctly, the higher the weight, the worse it is in the cold weather. I was considering that this morning when it has been in the high 20s or low 30s for the past few days and my car's starting has seemed a bit rougher.



I really doubt that you're going to get warm enough for pre-ignition. That's usually a problem that you get from using too low of an octane rating for your gasoline ( the gasoline explodes under the pressure ) or an issue with things like carbon deposits on your cylinder walls.




I've never heard of this before. An engine is typically cooled using coolant (which is usually just water + anti-freeze).



If you lean out your mixture, your car should just see far reduced power (depending on how lean it is).

High octane gasoline is used in turbo-charged and high compression engines because higher octane gasoline will resist exploding under higher pressures. Both forced induction and high compression ratio engines will create higher cylinder pressures that necessitate gasoline that won't pre-ignite.

it really sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about :|

 

[bobdole369]

My little 3 cylinder Chevrolet Metro gets 10% better gas mileage running pure gas versus that ethanol crap.

So many people are just spouting nonsense, incorrect information, numbers out of their ass, lies, etc in this thread. This just doesn't happen. Period. Ethanol content doesn't change your mileage noticeably until its over about 30%. Check your tires fool. Also check that you are actually pumping what fuel your car needs.

If your vehicle requires premium use it - else your knock sensor retards the timing to reduce the knock to save your retarded ass from breaking the motor.
If your vehicle requires regular - don't use premium. It doesn't work better and actually is harder to detonate, but not by a measurable effect on fuel economy.

I'll say it again - E10 has no measurable (that is outside the margin of error) effect on fuel economy vs E0.

 

[IAteYourMother]

the country would be a better place without corn.

 

[Patranus]

Just be glad you don't live in California. They are trying to force 20% ethanol on us. Thank god for federal judges.

 

[DaTT]

This isn't true.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=ON

 

[LTC8K6]

Straight from the US DOE

E10 (gasohol)

E10 (also called “gasohol&#8221😉 is a blend of 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline sold in many parts of the country. All auto manufacturers approve the use of blends of 10% ethanol or less in their gasoline vehicles. However, vehicles will typically go 3–4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 than on straight gasoline.

 

[disappoint]

Straight from the US DOE
E10 (gasohol)

E10 (also called “gasohol”) is a blend of 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline sold in many parts of the country. All auto manufacturers approve the use of blends of 10% ethanol or less in their gasoline vehicles. However, vehicles will typically go 3–4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 than on straight gasoline.

A post that makes sense and got it right?! WHAT WITCHCRAFT IS THIS?

 

[Paperdoc]

fatpat268 and several others: I stand corrected. E85 really is up to 85% Ethanol. And that certainly requires engine and fuel systems designed for it. I'm not surprised you can see a significant difference in fuel mileage between it and pure gasoline.

 

[DVad3r]

Shell V-Power in Canada has 0 % ethanol. The Silver has 5 %, and the bronze 10 %.

And yes no ethanol you get higher mileage.

 

[Bignate603]

Straight from the US DOE

Yup, it gets a bit lower mileage but honestly the difference is so low that most people won't even notice it.

 

[Meghan54]

Yup, it gets a bit lower mileage but honestly the difference is so low that most people won't even notice it.

True, but you can't convince the "ethanol is the debbil" believers out there.

And then that group is astounded to find out ethanol has been blended into our gasoline supplies since the 1980's.....I have a 1985 Chrysler LeBaron convert that specifically mentions in its owner's manual that ethanol blended fuel is OK to use, up to 10% concentrations. Methanol, no, but ethanol was fine to use.

 

[IcePickFreak]

Cold air is more dense so it burns more fuel. That's why guys who drag race hit the best time in the milder weather, when the temp is cool enough to make more power (denser air means more fuel, thus more power) yet warm enough for the tires to still grip.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yup, it gets a bit lower mileage but honestly the difference is so low that most people won't even notice it.

They probably notice it in the winter, when it adds up with the already lower mileage.

 

[Railgun]

So much misinformation in this thread.

First, there is no difference in how hot 87 vs 93 burns (from the same brands anyway). The rating is its resistance to ignite, detonate, whatever term you want to use. 87 is more prone. 93 not as much. Ethanol, being alcohol, by nature has cooling effect, however, as indicated, has less energy than the same volume 100% octane fuel. It, in effect, raises the octane rating (read: resistance to ignite) but since it carries less energy, you need more.

Fuel, has a side effect of cooling the combustion chamber but that alone isn't anywhere near responsible for keeping the thing within operating temp. Yes, you can lean it out, but that won't kill your motor. If you're too lean, you risk pre-ignition. THAT'S what will kill your motor well before simply running lean will. So long as your cooling and oiling system are working fine, you can run all day lean as hell if you're not detonating.

E85 in most applications requires about 30%, if not more volume than 100% octane. Needless to say, this is going to kill your mileage. However, it's equivalent octane rating is 105-115, apparently depending on who you ask, which means in high compression/boosted applications, it can give you a ton of power without auxillary injection (water or alcohol). Because ethanol DOES burn cooler, the engine will run a bit cooler, but it's not that drastic.

Yes, in some applications, it will eat components. In most, if not all cars since the 80s, that's not really that much of a concern. I recently converted to E85 myself. One, as a technical exercise, two for certain power goals. The lack of availability is the main deterrant I think. The power/volume still makes it worth it, which is still better than filling up with 100 octane at $7 all the time, but like that as well, don't expect to be going cross country on it as you'll get stranded.

I don't care about environmental issues surrounding it. I'll use water if they make it work and can produce enough power.

Blame Obama? I'm not going to turn this into politics and mention how stupid of a comment that is.

OP asked, analog answered. /thread.