Gandalf vs. Saruman

[CFster]

This is what a lot of people were afraid of when they said they would make the movie. That it would get perverted into something else than the story that was written. It's obvious now that they decided to concentrate on the battles (that's Hollywood) more than the actual story so I guess it should come as no surprise that everyone is wondering who can kick who's ass.

1. The three rings of power aren't meant to be used in battle - they're not for that purpose. The rings "power mainly was to ward off the decays of time, to 'postpone the weariness of the world' " And, the wise planned to keep them hidden anyway, lest Sauron get his hands on them and have even more power.

2. Gandalf and the rest of the wizards aren't supposed to use their power directly against Sauron. They are there to "move people to great deeds" and show them how defeat him themselves.

3. Not sure what lirion is talking about - Gandalf was Olorin and Saruman was Curunir in the West. They were of the race Maia who were servents of the Valar (who came from outside the world in the beginning - pretty much Gods). I'm pretty versed in the Silmarillion and can't remember Olorin and Curunir ever being close, or alike.

4. Interestingly, the Valar that Curunir (Saruman) was "attached" to was Aule (Yavanna), who was interested in rock and metal. He also created the race of Dwarves. I wonder if this is the reason Saruman was so interested in the rings and actually fashioned his own - pure conjecture...

5. BTW, the Valar which Olorin (Gandalf) was assigned to was Manwe - pretty much the boss of them all - I believe Manwe always intended for Gandalf to be head of the Istari (Wizards) and planned for it to happen eventually (which it did). He may have sent Saruman to Middle-Earth to fail - who knows...

 

[PowerEngineer]

I agree that it seems odd that Gandalf ends up having Narya at the end of the trilogy. As Cfster says, the three elfen rings could not be openly used while the One Ring existed and could control them (and thenfaded when the One Ring was destroyed). The three rings were powerful but subtle; not necessarily wise to use in a battle with Saruman and probably counterproductive to the effort to defeat Sharon.

I see the transformation of Gandalf the Gray to Gandalf the White as an expression of the strength of "good". When Saruman became perverted and no longer the strongest expression of this "good", then this "good" expanded its outlet through Gandalf. Speculating just what Gandalf the White was actually capable of doing is part of the fun in the final book; we never do really find out.

 

[Wallydraigle]

Originally posted by: CFster
This is what a lot of people were afraid of when they said they would make the movie. That it would get perverted into something else than the story that was written. It's obvious now that they decided to concentrate on the battles (that's Hollywood) more than the actual story so I guess it should come as no surprise that everyone is wondering who can kick who's ass.

1. The three rings of power aren't meant to be used in battle - they're not for that purpose. The rings "power mainly was to ward off the decays of time, to 'postpone the weariness of the world' " And, the wise planned to keep them hidden anyway, lest Sauron get his hands on them and have even more power.

2. Gandalf and the rest of the wizards aren't supposed to use their power directly against Sauron. They are there to "move people to great deeds" and show them how defeat him themselves.

3. Not sure what lirion is talking about - Gandalf was Olorin and Saruman was Curunir in the West. They were of the race Maia who were servents of the Valar (who came from outside the world in the beginning - pretty much Gods). I'm pretty versed in the Silmarillion and can't remember Olorin and Curunir ever being close, or alike.

4. Interestingly, the Valar that Curunir (Saruman) was "attached" to was Aule (Yavanna), who was interested in rock and metal. He also created the race of Dwarves. I wonder if this is the reason Saruman was so interested in the rings and actually fashioned his own - pure conjecture...

5. BTW, the Valar which Olorin (Gandalf) was assigned to was Manwe - pretty much the boss of them all - I believe Manwe always intended for Gandalf to be head of the Istari (Wizards) and planned for it to happen eventually (which it did). He may have sent Saruman to Middle-Earth to fail - who knows...

About Olorin and Curunir being "brothers", I think it was in the "History of Middle-Earth" series. I'm not sure because I never read it all. Picture the Silmarillion swollen into I think six books, only the story is incomplete and more like Tolkien's notes than a finished work. I'll try and do a search and see what I can turn up.

 

[CFster]

Besides the five books in the series, all those other books out there are supposedly products of the late J.R.R. Tolkien's manuscripts which Christopher Tolkein arranged into some semblance of order. To be honest, who knows how much came from his father and how much came from Christopher's imagination. Bordering on fan fiction, even if it is his own son. I consider the Silmarillion his masterpiece - and the Middle-Earth bible. Most of those other books are just re-hashing everything anyway.

But if you can find out more about the Istari, I'm all for it!

 

[CFster]

"4. Interestingly, the Valar that Curunir (Saruman) was "attached" to was Aule (Yavanna), who was interested in rock and metal. He also created the race of Dwarves. I wonder if this is the reason Saruman was so interested in the rings and actually fashioned his own - pure conjecture..."

Correction - Aule and Yavanna were married. Aule was the Valar who's craft was rock and metal (and created the Dwarves).

 

[LordMaul]

NERD GATHERING!

 

[Kev]

This thread ranks 9.2 on the geek-o-meter.

 

[Shaftatplanetquake]

Originally posted by: maladroit
This thread ranks 9.2 on the geek-o-meter.

 

[CFster]

Uh yeah, and even knowing what Anandtech is doesn't get you on the geek-o-meter?

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: LordMaul
NERD GATHERING!

And nonetheless fun to watch.

 

[glen]

PJ is dumpy and and nerdy, yet he was able to use his uber nerd powers to snare a rather attractive and cool woman.
So, maybe it is ok to ...
n/m
preaching to the choir.

 

[thraashman]

Why couldn't the uber wizard that promoted Gandalf just go beat up Saruman?

The "uber" wizars you're speaking of were the Valar. The Valar are more like Gods than wizards. Actually, the "God" of middle earth is Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar. The Valar are more like his Angels. And Melkor would be his first angel, the first and most powerful of the Valar. Melkor eventually was named Morgoth by Feanor and it means Black Enemy, and was the one who corrupted Sauron and many other of the Maiar, Balrogs and Gandalf and the rest of the wise are all Maiar. The reason that the Valar didn't come and beat up Saruman or Sauron himself for that matter is because they'd already played their part. The Valar crushed Morgoth's armies and banished Morgoth from the world. The only reason that the Valar even came at last to overthrow Morgoth was because Earendil sailed to Valinor to request of the Valar that they help out Middle Earth. So, basically the most poweful being left in middle earth that was good, was Gandalf. The Valar could easily have taken out any of the Maiar, but it was not their place. It was the job of men to protect their own world.

I said way too much, I know

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: thraashman

Why couldn't the uber wizard that promoted Gandalf just go beat up Saruman?

The "uber" wizars you're speaking of were the Valar. The Valar are more like Gods than wizards. Actually, the "God" of middle earth is Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar. The Valar are more like his Angels. And Melkor would be his first angel, the first and most powerful of the Valar. Melkor eventually was named Morgoth by Feanor and it means Black Enemy, and was the one who corrupted Sauron and many other of the Maiar, Balrogs and Gandalf and the rest of the wise are all Maiar. The reason that the Valar didn't come and beat up Saruman or Sauron himself for that matter is because they'd already played their part. The Valar crushed Morgoth's armies and banished Morgoth from the world. The only reason that the Valar even came at last to overthrow Morgoth was because Earendil sailed to Valinor to request of the Valar that they help out Middle Earth. So, basically the most poweful being left in middle earth that was good, was Gandalf. The Valar could easily have taken out any of the Maiar, but it was not their place. It was the job of men to protect their own world.

I said way too much, I know

I just pooped my pants. That was the scariest post ever.

 

[LordMaul]

Originally posted by: thraashman

Why couldn't the uber wizard that promoted Gandalf just go beat up Saruman?

The "uber" wizars you're speaking of were the Valar. The Valar are more like Gods than wizards. Actually, the "God" of middle earth is Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar. The Valar are more like his Angels. And Melkor would be his first angel, the first and most powerful of the Valar. Melkor eventually was named Morgoth by Feanor and it means Black Enemy, and was the one who corrupted Sauron and many other of the Maiar, Balrogs and Gandalf and the rest of the wise are all Maiar. The reason that the Valar didn't come and beat up Saruman or Sauron himself for that matter is because they'd already played their part. The Valar crushed Morgoth's armies and banished Morgoth from the world. The only reason that the Valar even came at last to overthrow Morgoth was because Earendil sailed to Valinor to request of the Valar that they help out Middle Earth. So, basically the most poweful being left in middle earth that was good, was Gandalf. The Valar could easily have taken out any of the Maiar, but it was not their place. It was the job of men to protect their own world.

I said way too much, I know

*hands thraashman Ubar-Geek trophy*

I think you win. Period.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: thraashman

Why couldn't the uber wizard that promoted Gandalf just go beat up Saruman?

The "uber" wizars you're speaking of were the Valar. The Valar are more like Gods than wizards. Actually, the "God" of middle earth is Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar. The Valar are more like his Angels. And Melkor would be his first angel, the first and most powerful of the Valar. Melkor eventually was named Morgoth by Feanor and it means Black Enemy, and was the one who corrupted Sauron and many other of the Maiar, Balrogs and Gandalf and the rest of the wise are all Maiar. The reason that the Valar didn't come and beat up Saruman or Sauron himself for that matter is because they'd already played their part. The Valar crushed Morgoth's armies and banished Morgoth from the world. The only reason that the Valar even came at last to overthrow Morgoth was because Earendil sailed to Valinor to request of the Valar that they help out Middle Earth. So, basically the most poweful being left in middle earth that was good, was Gandalf. The Valar could easily have taken out any of the Maiar, but it was not their place. It was the job of men to protect their own world.

I said way too much, I know

Damn, I guess this makes you like the sauron of nerds. You should go make a ring that lets you control other nerds or something.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: thraashman

Why couldn't the uber wizard that promoted Gandalf just go beat up Saruman?

The "uber" wizars you're speaking of were the Valar. The Valar are more like Gods than wizards. Actually, the "God" of middle earth is Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar. The Valar are more like his Angels. And Melkor would be his first angel, the first and most powerful of the Valar. Melkor eventually was named Morgoth by Feanor and it means Black Enemy, and was the one who corrupted Sauron and many other of the Maiar, Balrogs and Gandalf and the rest of the wise are all Maiar. The reason that the Valar didn't come and beat up Saruman or Sauron himself for that matter is because they'd already played their part. The Valar crushed Morgoth's armies and banished Morgoth from the world. The only reason that the Valar even came at last to overthrow Morgoth was because Earendil sailed to Valinor to request of the Valar that they help out Middle Earth. So, basically the most poweful being left in middle earth that was good, was Gandalf. The Valar could easily have taken out any of the Maiar, but it was not their place. It was the job of men to protect their own world.

I said way too much, I know

Damn, I guess this makes you like the sauron of nerds. You should go make a ring that lets you control other nerds or something.

HAHAHAHAHA

 

[ElFenix]

cirdan gave it to gandalf saying that he had a feeling that gandalf would need it.

 

[OulOat]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: thraashman

Why couldn't the uber wizard that promoted Gandalf just go beat up Saruman?

The "uber" wizars you're speaking of were the Valar. The Valar are more like Gods than wizards. Actually, the "God" of middle earth is Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar. The Valar are more like his Angels. And Melkor would be his first angel, the first and most powerful of the Valar. Melkor eventually was named Morgoth by Feanor and it means Black Enemy, and was the one who corrupted Sauron and many other of the Maiar, Balrogs and Gandalf and the rest of the wise are all Maiar. The reason that the Valar didn't come and beat up Saruman or Sauron himself for that matter is because they'd already played their part. The Valar crushed Morgoth's armies and banished Morgoth from the world. The only reason that the Valar even came at last to overthrow Morgoth was because Earendil sailed to Valinor to request of the Valar that they help out Middle Earth. So, basically the most poweful being left in middle earth that was good, was Gandalf. The Valar could easily have taken out any of the Maiar, but it was not their place. It was the job of men to protect their own world.

I said way too much, I know

Damn, I guess this makes you like the sauron of nerds. You should go make a ring that lets you control other nerds or something.

Lord of the nerds, or should it be lord of the dance?