Gaming: X4 965 BE or I5/I7?

[BD231]

965 if gaming is the aim. i5 would probably be more fun to play with overclocking and might provide a slightly longer gap between upgrades. Its pretty hard to be disappointed with a maxed out AM3 setup at the moment.

 

[toyota]

965 if gaming is the aim. i5 would probably be more fun to play with overclocking and might provide a slightly longer gap between upgrades. Its pretty hard to be disappointed with a maxed out AM3 setup at the moment.

how does that makes any sense? in 99.9% of cases a stock 2.66 i5 is faster than a 3.4 Phenom 2 965 while having the same system cost. factor in efficiency and the ability of the i5 to overclock much higher and its the better overall cpu for everything including gaming.

 

[cbn]

Case in point is, when you clock the NB at 2.6-2.8Ghz, the Ph2 965 is perfectly fine.

I am thinking about buying a AM2+ mainboard so I can carry my 2 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 memory over.

Are there any pitfalls as far as overclocking the Northbridge goes when using certain AM2+ mainboards? What chipset works the best? Which ones should I avoid? How big is the performance difference between these chipsets?

Also how would my D9MGH memory sticks figure into this? I don't think they are very high bin. I think the later Micron DDR2 sticks ran much faster.

 

[toyota]

I am thinking about buying a AM2+ mainboard so I can carry my 2 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 memory over.

Are there any pitfalls as far as overclocking the Northbridge goes when using certain AM2+ mainboards? What chipset works the best? Which ones should I avoid? How big is the performance difference between these chipsets?

Also how would my D9MGH memory sticks figure into this? I don't think they are very high bin. I think the later Micron DDR2 sticks ran much faster.

if you are going to have that pc for gaming then you will need 4gb of ram anyway. probably wouldnt cost you much more to just sell the DDR2 and apply it towards getting 4gb DDR3 then to fool with buying another 2gb of DDR2.

 

[cbn]

if you are going to have that pc for gaming then you will need 4gb of ram anyway. probably wouldnt cost you much more to just sell the DDR2 and apply it towards getting 4gb DDR3 then to fool with buying another 2gb of DDR2.

That makes sense. The memory standard is always moving forward. Pretty soon we will be at 4GB Dimms.

I just didn't think game developers were increasing use of system ram yet?

 

[toyota]

That makes sense. The memory standard is always moving forward. Pretty soon we will be at 4GB Dimms.

I just didn't think game developers were increasing use of system ram yet?

well Warhead and Clear Sky certainly hitch at times with only 2gb of ram. I had to get more ram in my previous pc because 2gb just wasnt giving a pleasant experience in those two games. also having more than 2gb is better for overall performance too since Vista and 7 will will put that ram to use.

 

[cbn]

well Warhead and Clear Sky certainly hitch at times with only 2gb of ram. I had to get more ram in my previous pc because 2gb just wasnt giving a pleasant experience in those two games. also having more than 2gb is better for overall performance too since Vista and 7 will will put that ram to use.

Battlefield Bad Company 2 lists quad core and 2GB Ram as the "recommended", but with memory so cheap I don't think websites are even bothering to do memory amount comparisons.

For example, I was just looking through the hot deals section for "pricing history". From late 2008 to around October 2009 a person could buy 4GB memory kits for $40 and triple channel DDR3 6GB kits were as low as $60 AR. Those prices are just ridiculous compared to what they were in 2006.

 

[toyota]

Battlefield Bad Company 2 lists quad core and 2GB Ram as the "recommended", but with memory so cheap I don't think websites are even bothering to do memory amount comparisons.

For example, I was just looking through the hot deals section for "pricing history". From late 2008 to around October 2009 a person could buy 4GB memory kits for $40 and triple channel DDR3 6GB kits were as low as $60 AR. Those prices are just ridiculous compared to what they were in 2006.

yeah and there are games that list an 8600gt as the recommend card too and we all know how that card is in real world gameplay. in other words the recommended specs are usually the real world minimums for running games smoothly at just medium settings at a decent res.

 

[cbn]

I don't, sorry.

Case in point is, when you clock the NB at 2.6-2.8Ghz, the Ph2 965 is perfectly fine.

Okay, I "unblocked" by clicking on "page info" to give me the option.

Now that I have zoomed into that graph It looks like we are talking 2 FPS difference between Phenom II x4s @ 3.5 Ghz set a either 1.8 Ghz IMC or 2.28 Ghz IMC.

Are there any more tests using higher IMC frequency differences and lower graphical settings?

 

[soccerballtux]

I don't, sorry.

Case in point is, when you clock the NB at 2.6-2.8Ghz, the Ph2 965 is perfectly fine.

I am thinking about buying a AM2+ mainboard so I can carry my 2 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 memory over.

Are there any pitfalls as far as overclocking the Northbridge goes when using certain AM2+ mainboards? What chipset works the best? Which ones should I avoid? How big is the performance difference between these chipsets?

Also how would my D9MGH memory sticks figure into this? I don't think they are very high bin. I think the later Micron DDR2 sticks ran much faster.

there is a difference between the NB and the CPU-NB sorry for the confusion. CPU-NB is the L3 cache which is on the CPU. Overclocking it is not motherboard dependent, just need to increase the multiplier (and voltage a little).

 

[cbn]

check out most of the games where they tested min framerate. even the Core 2 Duo usually does better than the Phenom 2 X4 in that respect. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-hd5870-cpu-scaling_4.html

Wow, those are some pretty big differences.

Thanks for the graphs.

 

[cbn]

there is a difference between the NB and the CPU-NB sorry for the confusion. CPU-NB is the L3 cache which is on the CPU. Overclocking it is not motherboard dependent, just need to increase the multiplier (and voltage a little).

What if a person is using a fixed multiplier Phenom II x4 like the 945?

Can the CPU-NB effectively be increased in this scenario? Or is it just massively inefficient compared to processors with unlocked multipliers?

Also, do you have any graphs with CPU-NB increased vs stock speed CPU-NB? Thanks.

 

[soccerballtux]

What if a person is using a fixed multiplier Phenom II x4 like the 945?

Can the CPU-NB effectively be increased in this scenario? Or is it just massively inefficient compared to processors with unlocked multipliers?

Also, do you have any graphs with CPU-NB increased vs stock speed CPU-NB? Thanks.

yes the CPU-NB moves with the CPU front side bus then.

 

[soccerballtux]

I don't, sorry.

Case in point is, when you clock the NB at 2.6-2.8Ghz, the Ph2 965 is perfectly fine.

Okay, I "unblocked" by clicking on "page info" to give me the option.

Now that I have zoomed into that graph It looks like we are talking 2 FPS difference between Phenom II x4s @ 3.5 Ghz set a either 1.8 Ghz IMC or 2.28 Ghz IMC.

Are there any more tests using higher IMC frequency differences and lower graphical settings?

purple and green are drivers are maxing out, these were benched before AMD implemented those massive 10-20% Crysis engine improvements. Look at the Yellow and one 2 sets of bars above it.

 

[cbn]

yes the CPU-NB moves with the CPU front side bus then.

So if I get a 945 Phenom II x4 and raise FSB to 230 (from 200) what would my CPU-NB end up being? (I have never overclocked an AMD).

Thanks.

 

[cbn]

purple and green are drivers are maxing out, these were benched before AMD implemented those massive 10-20% Crysis engine improvements. Look at the Yellow and one 2 sets of bars above it.

Okay, that is much better.

We are seeing ~10 FPS improvement increasing IMC from 1.8 Ghz to 2.28 Ghz.

P.S. Sorry I missed your initial comment in post #44. You did point out differences in drivers previously.

 

[soccerballtux]

So if I get a 945 Phenom II x4 and raise FSB to 230 (from 200) what would my CPU-NB end up being? (I have never overclocked an AMD).

Thanks.

I would guess 2300mhz.
If you can make this 2600mhz all the better, and adjust ram ratio to stay within whatever your ram speed is. Stock voltage is 1.2v I believe for the L3, others will say 1.1...that seems awfully low. I've got mine @ +0.2v for the cpu-nb to get me to 2.6ghz.

 

[soccerballtux]

Hm I'll have to run some branch-prediction heavy code next time I get a chance on my CPU, with the L3 clocked at 2.6 and with it clocked at 2.0. Want to quantify the performance difference with some more benchmarks.

Branch-heavy is important because math-only code is typically very easy to predict branch behavior, so the L3 wouldn't be used much.

In branch-heavy code (games, for example, with lots of conditionals that can change on the fly-- like AI), the L2 cache doesn't contain all the data the cores need to continue computation, so the cores heck the L3 cache and if data is there, we pull it from that and continue execution.

The performance hit comes when the data isn't in the L3 cache and we have to go back to RAM (or when the L3 cache is running slowly-- if we clocked it at 1.4ghz or something silly, you'd see a big hit).

 

[cbn]

I would guess 2300mhz.
If you can make this 2600mhz all the better, and adjust ram ratio to stay within whatever your ram speed is. Stock voltage is 1.2v I believe for the L3, others will say 1.1...that seems awfully low. I've got mine @ +0.2v for the cpu-nb to get me to 2.6ghz.

In order to achieve 2600 Mhz CPU-NB with Phenom II 945 that means I need to obtain a CPU speed of 3.9 GHz right? (re: 15x multiplier at 260 FSB yields 3.9 GHz core speed)

What about overclocking the IMC? Is this done independently of the CPU overclock?

If I bought a Phenom II x4 I would like to overclock both the NB-CPU and NB. Are the benefits are synergistic or additive?

P.S. What happens to power consumption with all these volts added to the system?

Hm I'll have to run some branch-prediction heavy code next time I get a chance on my CPU, with the L3 clocked at 2.6 and with it clocked at 2.0. Want to quantify the performance difference with some more benchmarks.

Branch-heavy is important because math-only code is typically very easy to predict branch behavior, so the L3 wouldn't be used much.

In branch-heavy code (games, for example, with lots of conditionals that can change on the fly-- like AI), the L2 cache doesn't contain all the data the cores need to continue computation, so the cores heck the L3 cache and if data is there, we pull it from that and continue execution.

The performance hit comes when the data isn't in the L3 cache and we have to go back to RAM (or when the L3 cache is running slowly-- if we clocked it at 1.4ghz or something silly, you'd see a big hit).

Sounds pretty interesting. I am sure a lot of us would like to see the benchmarks.

Speaking of L3 cache speed are the benefits of this separate from increasing the IMC clock speed?

 

[konakona]

IIRC, IMC is included in CPU-NB, so that is again done by CPU-NB overclocking.
I suggest you read these links, should answer some of your questions:

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/f...discussion-beta-bios-136-now-available-post-7
http://www.overclock.net/amd-memory/555061-guide-am3-cpus-ram-speed-faster.html

 

[cbn]

http://www.overclock.net/amd-memory/555061-guide-am3-cpus-ram-speed-faster.html

Hmmm...In this comparison the 3D mark score is actually fastest @ 2000 Mhz CPU-NB. (rather than overclocked)

 

[Jovec]

Hmmm...In this comparison the 3D mark score is actually fastest @ 2000 Mhz CPU-NB. (rather than overclocked)

I believe you are confusing the HT link with CPU-NB speed in that link. It's best to leave the HT link at or around 2000, but you can independently push the CPU-NB up to 2.6 or higher.

 

[SlowSpyder]

For whatever it's worth, I ran some benches for Idontcare (Where is he? ) and right around the 3.4-3.5GHz range on the core, it seemed like my 1.8GHz NB/L3 was not keeping up with the cores. Benches did not scale well with more core speed, but the same NL/L3 speed. But, when I increased the NB/L3 benches scaled much better.

I think AMD kept th NB/L3 speeds low to keep power in check, but in my experiences when you get into the mid to upper 3GHz range you need more NB/L3 speed, there is a very solid increase from what I recall. I'll see if I still have the benches somewhere.

 

[soccerballtux]

In order to achieve 2600 Mhz CPU-NB with Phenom II 945 that means I need to obtain a CPU speed of 3.9 GHz right? (re: 15x multiplier at 260 FSB yields 3.9 GHz core speed)

What about overclocking the IMC? Is this done independently of the CPU overclock?

If I bought a Phenom II x4 I would like to overclock both the NB-CPU and NB. Are the benefits are synergistic or additive?

P.S. What happens to power consumption with all these volts added to the system?



Sounds pretty interesting. I am sure a lot of us would like to see the benchmarks.

Speaking of L3 cache speed are the benefits of this separate from increasing the IMC clock speed?

you should be able to down-clock the multiplier right? So you can turn the multi down so you're not trying to run at 3.9ghz (that would be difficult).

From what I recall, the only things worth overclocking on the Ph2 are the L3 cache and the actual core speed. Other stuff like HT speed, IMC, not important at all.

 

[fffblackmage]

IIRC, IMC is included in CPU-NB, so that is again done by CPU-NB overclocking.
I suggest you read these links, should answer some of your questions:

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/f...discussion-beta-bios-136-now-available-post-7
http://www.overclock.net/amd-memory/555061-guide-am3-cpus-ram-speed-faster.html

Thanks for sharing! I shall put the new knowledge to work immediately.