Game developers out of control spending ?

[Markbnj]

Computers are cheap.Information is cheap. It is relatively easy to hire someone in India who knows how to code and keep a skeleton crew in the us. Its just business.

Computers are cheap. Information may or may not be. Some information is tremendously expensive. Overseas outsourcing probably has very little to do with game development salaries. Game developers have always been paid a lot less than developers in other areas simply because they tend to be young and single, and the development studios just don't shop above an entry-level pay grade.

 

[coloumb]

Computers are cheap.Information is cheap. It is relatively easy to hire someone in India who knows how to code and keep a skeleton crew in the us. Its just business.

You'll spend more $$ on IP and international B.S. than if you setup shop with localized talent.

Events such as IGF [http://www.igf.com/] are proof you don't need a large team/budget to make a great game. Braid, Osmosis, Torchlight, World of Goo, etc - all excellent games which didn't require a 40 mil budget to make...

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

You folks saying 50k for programmers and $1500 a month for space rental is dirt cheap need to check out the middle of the country. You know, the place where the majority of Americans live? Perhaps if a few development companies moved to Wisconsin, Iowa or, Arizona, there might be cheaper games.

 

[viivo]

You folks saying 50k for programmers and $1500 a month for space rental is dirt cheap need to check out the middle of the country. You know, the place where the majority of Americans live? Perhaps if a few development companies moved to Wisconsin, Iowa or, Arizona, there might be cheaper games.

I'm not sure what you mean. Should people be paid less because they work in a mid-western or southern state? Plus there's already a category of cheaper games, called value titles, which is what you get from a small-time company that hired the cheapest help possible. I don't know about you, but I don't need a Deer Hunter and Monster Jam game every year.

I didn't mean to sound like a smug dick saying 50K is a pittance - It's 50K more than I'm making right now, but it's also nearly what I pay in tuition. People who spend 4, 6 or 8 years getting a degree(s) should be paid not only for their grades which should obviously be up to snuff, but the effort and dedication they have put into learning the trade.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I'm not sure what you mean. Should people be paid less because they work in a mid-western or southern state?

I didn't mean to sound like a smug dick saying 50K is a pittance - It's 50K more than I'm making right now, but it's also nearly what I pay in tuition. People who spend 4, 6 or 8 years getting a degree(s) should be paid not only for their grades which should obviously be up to snuff, but the effort and dedication they have put into learning the trade.

They shouldn't be paid less in Midwestern or Southern States but, they are. People should be able to command higher salaries for higher education but, unfortunately, that is now in question.

More and more, traditional Universities are proving to be a bad investment. Trade schools are becoming the best bet for return on tuition investment. Are there successful graduates form traditional Universities? You bet but, there are more graduates facing a mountain of debt with uncertain futures.

I just want to point out that the common viewpoint, "of course you have to go to college," is a fallacy.

 

[JoshGuru7]

They shouldn't be paid less in Midwestern or Southern States but, they are. People should be able to command higher salaries for higher education but, unfortunately, that is now in question.

I agree with your overall point but I disagree with this in that I think it's working as it should. Jobs are a good and employers have to compete for workers by adjusting wages. Wages depend on both the demand for workers and the supply of workers and as a result labor is efficiently allocated to whatever provides the most value.

- Wages in the midwest "should" be lower than wages on the coasts because the cost of living is lower. Employers don't need to offer as much to attract workers.

- Wages for certain professions can seem low compared to other professions if the supply of workers is high. Teaching is a good example of this, where most people say that teachers are underpaid but at the same time there are more people who want to teach than there are open positions in many places. This is because there are advantages to the teaching profession beyond strictly salarly that make up for what is lacking in the salary.

 

[JoshGuru7]

The problem with any art form, and game creation is an art , is you cannot pay your way to a great product.

I'm not sure what you base this on. Art is fairly subjective, but you should expect to pay a lot more for "great" art than "average" art. If you wanted a statue of yourself back in the day how much more would Michelangelo have charged than your cousin's kid?

Publishers are of the mindset that money = talent and it doesn't work that way.

Why would any NBA team throw a max contract at Lebron when they could pay any of the posters in this thread $1 mil instead and pocket the rest of the cash? A game designer responsible for a great product increases their market value and can expect more money in return, from another developer if not the one they are currently with.

They are using the methods used for mass producing consumer goods where if you have a big enough factory, with enough people, and can sell enough product then you can be a success.

It's hard to respond to this without discussing specific games, but this doesn't seem to relate to many of the titles I've played in the last year or so. It's also worth noting that the purpose of mass producing consumer goods is to reduce costs, which seems to be the opposite of what the point of this thread is.

 

[BenSkywalker]

You folks saying 50k for programmers and $1500 a month for space rental is dirt cheap need to check out the middle of the country. You know, the place where the majority of Americans live? Perhaps if a few development companies moved to Wisconsin, Iowa or, Arizona, there might be cheaper games.

I wasn't saying $1500 a month is dirt cheap, $15,000 a month is dirt cheap. As far as where the majority of Americans live, 112million live on the East coast, 49 million on the west coast- that's more then half

Yes, moving to the sparsely populated middle region of the US could help reduce costs, but it unfortunately isn't the best place to find skilled people in the trade and trying to convince people to give up the harsh winters of SoCal for wonderful Iowa weather may be a tougher sell then you might think

 

[PingSpike]

They locate on the coasts because that is where the talent is. If they located in the midwest, it would be harder to fire all of your employees after the game was complete and then replace them later on. They'd have to pay relocation packages every time they did that.

 

[Modelworks]

I'm not sure what you base this on. Art is fairly subjective, but you should expect to pay a lot more for "great" art than "average" art. If you wanted a statue of yourself back in the day how much more would Michelangelo have charged than your cousin's kid?

It is based on the truth. Paying someone $10 million will not make them create great art. They either can do it or they cannot.

Why would any NBA team throw a max contract at Lebron when they could pay any of the posters in this thread $1 mil instead and pocket the rest of the cash? A game designer responsible for a great product increases their market value and can expect more money in return, from another developer if not the one they are currently with.

Publishers do not pay the employees the huge salaries, they waste it in other ways that do little to improve the title.

It's hard to respond to this without discussing specific games, but this doesn't seem to relate to many of the titles I've played in the last year or so. It's also worth noting that the purpose of mass producing consumer goods is to reduce costs, which seems to be the opposite of what the point of this thread is.

Publishers do not look at software as something created by skilled people. They look at it as a product to be sold and get a return. To them hiring cheaper less skilled labor, turning out a game as quick as possible and moving on to the next title as soon as possible is a legitimate business model for games. They want games to be as much like the assembly line in a factory as possible. Notice in years past how games were constantly delayed when the development team thought it needed more work. Now it is ship it and patch it later we really don't care.

 

[Modelworks]

You folks saying 50k for programmers and $1500 a month for space rental is dirt cheap need to check out the middle of the country. You know, the place where the majority of Americans live? Perhaps if a few development companies moved to Wisconsin, Iowa or, Arizona, there might be cheaper games.

I live outside of Raleigh, NC. Over the years the area has started adding more and more game developers the biggest one is still Epic games but there are lots of start ups.

I used those figures because I know people in the area that make those salaries and have seen the office space that rents for $1500 a month (and that included all utilities). I think people have to get out of the mindset of offices that look like showrooms. The office space I quoted is one large room 2400sq ft. divided into cubicles. It wasn't a dump by any means. It was a good working space. Most people commute and here can rent nice places for about $1200 per month add in utilities and food and living on $2k a month here is easy. That leaves $26K a year for other things.

 

[BladeVenom]

Here's the industry averages according to Maxim. http://www.maxim.com/gaming/articles/90016/why-many-game-developers-drive-ferraris.html
Quality Assurance $32,000
Game Designer $67,000
Artists and Animators $70,000
Sound Designer $80,000
Programmer $90,000
Producer $129,000
Business & Marketing $131,000+

 

[BenSkywalker]

I used those figures because I know people in the area that make those salaries and have seen the office space that rents for $1500 a month (and that included all utilities).

He found himself an incredible deal, just spent some time looking and the cheapest office space I could find in the Raleigh area was over $12/yr sq ft without any utilities included. Much, much cheaper then anything in Valley or Megalopolis but a very far cry from the deal he apparently got.

The office space I quoted is one large room 2400sq ft. divided into cubicles. It wasn't a dump by any means.

For ~20 person staff? I wouldn't want to work in that type of space, although I suppose if you are using that as an example of what's wrong with the industry in terms of the way it treats people, it would be a good example.

Most people commute and here can rent nice places for about $1200 per month add in utilities and food and living on $2k a month here is easy. That leaves $26K a year for other things.

Like paying for their own medical insurance out of pocket? If they have a family, going at it without the backing of an employer that is about a quarter of their disposable income alone. Not saying it isn't doable, but it certainly sounds like a white collar sweat shop.

Paying someone $10 million will not make them create great art. They either can do it or they cannot.

I'd love to see anyone create a game that can match the production values of FFXIII for $10 million. Certain things you just have to spend more on. That FFXIII has pulled in ~$200 million so far seems to indicate that budgest in the $60Million range can still offer a rather decent ROI if it is for the right group of people. Hell, GT5's release is a ways off, they have already spent in the range of $60Million and they have already turned a profit on the game. Sure, you can create some small market PC game for relatively small amounts of money and be profitable, but if you are looking to make hundreds of millions of a game today, you need to have a budget to compete with what the 'big boys' are doing or you aren't really going to have a chance. How many games made for ~$2Million would a publish need to turn out to make ~$140Million in profit? Obviously, the risk factor is shockingly different between the two, but there is lots of money to be made on huge budget games, games that could not turn out the same without a huge budget, and publishers like seeing huge profit numbers next to any product, hell any decent manager in any for profit company likes to see that.

 

[Martimus]

Most people commute and here can rent nice places for about $1200 per month add in utilities and food and living on $2k a month here is easy. That leaves $26K a year for other things.

Not to get too far off topic, but $2K a month is closer to $40K than $24K due to taxes (I know because I have a $2K a month budget.) You can definitely live comfortably off of $2K a month in Michigan, although with kids it will cost closer to $2.5-3K a month to live comfortably.