Game developers out of control spending ?

[Modelworks]

I have seen a lot of studio closings in the past couple months and one thing seems common to all of them, inflated cost. I remember 5 years ago when quality games were being produced for a few hundred thousand. Now we are seeing games with $40 million budgets. It is no wonder the industry has problems. I'm not sure where the blame lies but they definitely need to take a step back and reign in cost. When I see developers going under and they show things like the offices located in the most expensive part of town, with furnishings and equipment that would make Bill Gates envy I just shake my head.

A developer near me was able to turn out a very good selling title for:
8 programmers @ 50K /year
7 artist @48K /year
2 sound effects and composition @40K/year
$1500 month rent office space
$29K hardware cost
--------------------------
Just over $1 million per year

Warcraft 3 was made for under $3 million as was Diablo 2.

I think some of these developers have the movie industry mentality that $100 million budgets are where its at and it is all glamor and fame . Maybe more of these people will go under and we can get back to people that actually care about their work and are not in it just for the money and perks.

 

[viivo]

8 programmers @ 50K /year

Holy crap, is this in Haiti? I'm glad I changed my major from CS to Electrical Engineering.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I agree I think they're spending so much up front that piracy and used game sales put too much pressure on them. I can't imagine why a game needs a 40 million budget. You're rent figure is a bit low though it's more like 10-20k for anoffice to hold that many plus benefits, legal and equipment but yes 40 million is high.

 

[smackababy]

I think your numbers are a bit off. I starting person with BS in Computer Science is like average of around 57k a year. That is entry level. Even mid career median is like 85K+. I'd say your numbers are off.

 

[Liet]

His point is still valid - double his salary numbers and you're still ridiculously cheaper than a lot of the major releases lately.

How much did X-Com, Fallout, Tie Fighter, Doom cost to create? Why do we still remember them vs. well... all the big-name shooters we've forgotten about from two years ago?

 

[you2]

Depends on location. SF, CA is a whole lot more expensive (3x?) than rural kansas. However, whether the cost is $400K or 4M; budgets like 40M seem outrageous. I wonder how much of this cost is corporate overhead and advertising. I.e, clearly some games like DA which took many years to develop and has quite a bit of spoken dialogue is going to cost a bit more than descent 1/2/3. But even in SF, CA a team of 20 for 4 years should cost a bit under 10 million and most games do not take 20 full time employees 4 years....

I think your numbers are a bit off. I starting person with BS in Computer Science is like average of around 57k a year. That is entry level. Even mid career median is like 85K+. I'd say your numbers are off.

 

[Rakewell]

Spoken talent has got to be the biggest cost.

I mean, the original LoTR cast? Patrick Stewart in Oblivion?

Liam Neeson, Malcolm McDowell, & Ron Perlman together if FO3 was a chunk of change.

 

[BladeVenom]

I'd be interested in how much Baldur's Gate cost to make. That was an epic title.

 

[crownjules]

A lot of the big costs in modern day video games vs. 10 years ago is marketing and advertising. You do not get an ad campaign like you see for MW2, ME2, etc. without spending several million dollars on TV spots, magazine ads, etc. Ten years ago a game's marketing wouldn't go beyond magazine ads and maybe some banners on video game websites.

Voice talent will be expensive if you go for famous actors.

I do agree that some development studios seem to situate themselves in very lavish conditions. Obviously there are some that are well off enough and can afford it and will help them attract top tier talent (Valve, Blizzard, as much as I hate to admit it Infinity Ward, etc)

 

[StrangerGuy]

Spoken talent has got to be the biggest cost.

I mean, the original LoTR cast? Patrick Stewart in Oblivion?

Liam Neeson, Malcolm McDowell, & Ron Perlman together if FO3 was a chunk of change.

LOL Oblivion.

They paid so much for Patrick Steward to voice cast somebody that dies in the first 10 mins of the game, and when you play for a bit more its painfully obvious 1000+ npcs are sharing half a dozen of voice actors speaking same dialog again and again. They could have just dumped him to hire 10 more decent enough VAs to make the dialog not suck.

 

[Xed]

Higher budgets for mmo's at least make some sense. Even with a piddly 100k subscribers you're at least raking in a million a month gross. An actually successful mmo is a license to print money.

Mmo players are also pretty fickle. If you screw up the launch they'll flock back to WoW, so it makes sense to spend as much as you can to make your product shine.

Sadly most mmo's still fail to do that.

 

[jinduy]

Holy crap, is this in Haiti? I'm glad I changed my major from CS to Electrical Engineering.

yeah that sounds real low for programmers, unless they are all entry level out of college

 

[clok1966]

I wish i could remeber where i read it but someplace (Escapist/ gamasutra?) said the average team size has increased 10 fold, and average price (with inflation factored in) has also more then quadrupled.

Much like any entertainment drivin field, speed is key, moreso in software. Tech is changing so rapidily that being behind a year can be nail in the coffin. More people, bigger budgets mean quicker releases.

Right now 2 of every 3 games is a variation of a FPS, a very TECH drivin game style. Look at what it did to one of the "prints money" franchises, Duke Nukeum.. game was partialy done and they decide the tech was no good and started over, and over and.. died painfully in front of us over what? 10 years?

people have gotten to the point shine is far more important then substance, look at movies. Transformers, Armegedon, etc.. while fun to look at, are really not much else (nothing wrong with that), we all demand instant gratifaction nowdays.

So we go back to software, hardware and graphics (PC) standards change every 6 months, MS updates Direct X every year (and OS's too), console lifespans are (suposedly) 5 years. Again Speed is key, strike while the iron is hot, or before its outdated. Also you factor in game gener that is "hot", which can last for year or somteimes much less. RPG's where king in the Old days (all but dead nowdays) RTS was hot, its a limited gener now. FPS is where it currently is at. Which brings us to the net problem after speed. HOW do you make "your" FPS differnt then the rest? Well geniricly they are all the same, levels with you running and shooting. SO you gotta make um look wonderfull , or make um bigger, or make more of them so they play longer, or make different enemies, more of them, more scripted , more voice dialog, more options, more, more more.. it all takes money and people to implement.

much like cars, Car buyers started with basic transportation, it wasnt fast, it wasnt comfortble, it didnt have a roof, it broke down a lot. They improved it to a point in the late 50's early 60's where CHROME and SIZE and OPTIONS where the only way to sell the product. Excess was KING.. But with time, it all changed, function and form and cost and long lasting and MPG all soon mattered, so FUNCTION was the new king.

Game makers are at that point right now, chrome and options sell the game, but gamers are soon going to be back to FUNCTION, is it FUN to play?

Look at stuff like BRAID, TRINE, WoG... people wonder why the causale market is so big, it becuase most of them are FUN... and dont cost a fortune and are easy to grasp.

I used to LOVE football (and most sports games) on my console, played them all the time, dont play any nowdays.. I cant rember X+Up+LT+thmbstick down is how to juke when running the ball. Of course X+Up+LT+thmbstick down when in QB is how to handoff, or X+Up+LT+thmbstick down on defence is how to strip the ball, oh and on kickoff its how to fake.... good god, when did games get so complicated only people who have more free time then "normal" people can be the only people to play um?

And we cant leave out the fact that only 1 in every 10 software titles makes money (again, cant rember my source so my numbers may be off some (or alot)) getting noticed, (chrome!) can mean alot.. There was a time BOXART mattered for getting shelf space (still does).

There are so many reason, but us consumers should take the most blame. So many crap games sell huge (halo!!!! just a rehash of a million other FPS) and great games dont make hardly any money. But as consumers, we drive it. I can promise you if the they could sell us games that took less people to make and where cheaper, they would... oh wait they do... look at BIG FISH, and other causale game makers..

way to long, nobody reading it anymore Im sure..

 

[smackababy]

I think what is driving cost up is marketing. How many of you saw billboard ads for Fallout? How about TV commercials? Exactly... That drives the cost of gaming up quite a bit, but also drives up sales.

 

[Rakewell]

LOL Oblivion.

They paid so much for Patrick Steward to voice cast somebody that dies in the first 10 mins of the game, and when you play for a bit more its painfully obvious 1000+ npcs are sharing half a dozen of voice actors speaking same dialog again and again. They could have just dumped him to hire 10 more decent enough VAs to make the dialog not suck.

QFT.

It was cool to hear his voice at the beginning of the game, but... come on.

 

[HendrixFan]

Warcraft 3 was in development for 5 years before release, so I'm pretty sure it cost more than $3 mil.

My brother worked for Ensemble Studios up until the time MS killed them. They had two floors in an office building in Dallas, but not in the downtown area where it would have been more expensive. I don't think they had even 8 programmers but had a team of over 100 staff, as the majority of the work was in designing the game instead of cranking out the code. RTS's are a different animal, however, and creating units and balancing them with different civs is what makes or breaks a game.

Each of the Age games would take 2-3 years to develop start to finish, then a year or so for the expansion pack. The operating cost was in the low 10s of millions a year, so a game would easily cost Ensemble under $50 million to make. Between Age 1, 2 and 3 plus the Mythology series, you had 4 full games with 5 expansion packs and likely under a quarter million to develop. The revenue from the games was in the billions, with the publishers and retailers making their cut of course.

Any established gaming company can afford luxuries like you listed for their creative talent. As the studios are being bought up and we are being wittled down to just three mega publishers we are seeing more money being pumped into the "glitz" of a game (dialogue, scenes, marketing, etc) and less into gameplay. The cost of developing games has risen dramatically as the publishers have pushed for name recognition and sequels, even if it means having different studios developing for under the same title. The push to the safe middle by publishers is preventing risk in order to maximize revenues, but killing great ideas from being put out for gamers. It isn't the developers that are pushing for homogenized games and big budgets, those newer larger budgets are going towards things that they are minimally involved in (voice acting) or not involved at all (marketing).

 

[shortylickens]

I'd be interested in how much Baldur's Gate cost to make. That was an epic title.

According to the owners, too fucking much. Actually, it was the ridiculous cost of BG2 versus its returns that made them decide to never build such an epic game ever again.
Thats why shit is more dumbed down nowadays, they need massive sales from the average shmoe to increase revenue.

But at the same time, decreasing costs doesnt ever seem to enter the equation. I'll have to run that one by my accounting teacher and see how it works out. I must be missing something.

 

[coloumb]

I have seen a lot of studio closings in the past couple months and one thing seems common to all of them, inflated cost. I remember 5 years ago when quality games were being produced for a few hundred thousand. Now we are seeing games with $40 million budgets. It is no wonder the industry has problems. I'm not sure where the blame lies but they definitely need to take a step back and reign in cost. When I see developers going under and they show things like the offices located in the most expensive part of town, with furnishings and equipment that would make Bill Gates envy I just shake my head.

A developer near me was able to turn out a very good selling title for:
8 programmers @ 50K /year
7 artist @48K /year
2 sound effects and composition @40K/year
$1500 month rent office space
$29K hardware cost
--------------------------
Just over $1 million per year

Warcraft 3 was made for under $3 million as was Diablo 2.

I think some of these developers have the movie industry mentality that $100 million budgets are where its at and it is all glamor and fame . Maybe more of these people will go under and we can get back to people that actually care about their work and are not in it just for the money and perks.

Small office/developer staff will have low costs [the salaries for programmers/artists seem low] - what developer is this and what game did they release?

Have you looked at the ending credits of today's "high quality" games? That should give you a clear indication as to why they aren't cheap - voice acting, motion capture, non-technical support, etc... everyone needs to eat and live comfortably.

This isn't the 8/16 bit age of doom/quake/unreal where a small team of 5-10 people could crank out a game on a low budget - today's games are on par with blockbuster movies...

 

[cloudzero]

Have you looked at the ending credits of today's "high quality" games?

Yeah, those credits roll and roll and roll. They list every person in the publishing departments, overseas marketing and legal departments, the people doing all the stuff with Sony and Microsoft and all of that...yeah, it's a long list.

 

[Darklife]

You know it's not like these costs just appeared out of nowhere beacause the publishers decided to spoil the techs. All those fancy graphics, CGI movies, talented voice actors aren't cheap. The quality has simply gone way up.

Just wish they'd invest as much into the scripts and storylines...

 

[PingSpike]

LOL Oblivion.

They paid so much for Patrick Steward to voice cast somebody that dies in the first 10 mins of the game, and when you play for a bit more its painfully obvious 1000+ npcs are sharing half a dozen of voice actors speaking same dialog again and again. They could have just dumped him to hire 10 more decent enough VAs to make the dialog not suck.

Totally agree with this one. I like patrick stewart but you know they could have hired a number of professional voice actors for his salary to have more then one voice per race or whatever it is.

Lets face it though, Patrick Stewart's salary should be a line item in the marketing budget for that game, not the development budget.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Yeah, those credits roll and roll and roll. They list every person in the publishing departments, overseas marketing and legal departments, the people doing all the stuff with Sony and Microsoft and all of that...yeah, it's a long list.

yep, it's not just the programming team. there are a TON of support people not directly involved with making the game per se.

then you have to include things like renting office space, licensing technology, etc.

the costs add up very quickly.

 

[dighn]

You know it's not like these costs just appeared out of nowhere beacause the publishers decided to spoil the techs. All those fancy graphics, CGI movies, talented voice actors aren't cheap. The quality has simply gone way up.

Just wish they'd invest as much into the scripts and storylines...

Ditto on both. Sophistication of games have really shot up. Good artwork, music scores, voice acting, realistic motion captures, movies and so on, and the code to support it all is a lot of work. No matter what your opinion on the overall quality of today's games is, quantitatively they require a lot more work than before. People now demand the whole package, an experience that is often comparable to movies.

 

[Arglebargle]

And with all this money in it nowadays, most still can't manage to find good story writers. Of course, most game execs probably can't recognize good story writing either.

And unlike other aspects of game development, everyone thinks they are a good writer.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Holy crap, is this in Haiti? I'm glad I changed my major from CS to Electrical Engineering.

Fear not, you suffered only a minor starting salary decrease by switching from CS to EE.

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