I had a Gainward Geforce3 Ti 450, it ran 250/525 with stock cooling. It was a great card, I picked it up for $69 refurbished and ended up giving it to my teenage son. My replacement card for that was a retail Radeon 8500 128MB @ 312/306. My 7 year old son inherited that, but it was definately faster than the Geforce3. That's why I think the 8500 LE 128MB at close to the same price is a better deal. Just make sure you get one clocked at 250/250, not a 250/230 or less. The 250/250 one always seems to hit at least 275/275, with a good shot at 300/300.