G35 Broke, need new 7.1 Headphones

[shepardh]

Hey,

So after 2 years of use, my G35 broke.
Need help with choosing new ones, my budget is about 100-150$

The ones I'm currently trying to decide between are:

1)Logitech G930/G430 (Somewhat weary about those becuase of the durability issue)
2)Corsair Vengeance 1500
3)Plantronics GamesCom 780

I would appreciate any kind of advice, feel free to suggest other models as well.

 

[yhelothar]

My understanding of these 7.1 headphones is that the 7.1 is entirely software. I know many games comes with this virtualization built in. Are there games that supports 7.1 surround but not come with headphone surround virtualization?

If the game doesn't support 7.1 or 5.1, would any software virtualization be able to mimic it? I don't see how.

Case in point, if the game supports virtualization, it can make any headphones be "7.1". Then you can use audiophile headphones that are known to have a vast expansive soundstage and stereo imaging to maximize immersion and positioning, and I would be this would be more ideal than any set that's marketed as 7.1.

One of the most widely recommended headphones in your price range for what you seek is the Audio Technica AD-700.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/300289/best-soundstage-headphones-for-gaming

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Techn...adphones-/131043984103?_trksid=p2054897.l4276

 

[shepardh]

Not quite,

I'm talking about headphones that have multiple speakers to simulate the 7.1 experience...you can see what I'm talking about here :
http://assets.hardwaresphere.com/up...71-surround-sound-speaker-headset-diagram.jpg

 

[yhelothar]

The G35 you currently have doesn't have multiple speakers but rather uses Dolby Headphone to virtualize the surround.

But the ones with multiple speakers are definitely a gimmick. :\

You have two ears, having a bunch of speakers in a single earpiece isn't going to simulate multidirectional audio. The ones that have multiple speakers are known to sound incredibly muddy.

Virtual surround is much better.

For music, a good stereo recording, especially binaural will give you a perfect surround that'll surpass any surround speaker system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

 

[shepardh]

So which pair of headphones should I choose that works with the same mechanism as the G35 ?

 

[JamesV]

But the ones with multiple speakers are definitely a gimmick. :\

Have you ever tried any?

My friend had an Astro (I think) headset with multiple speakers in each ear cup, and it was far better than my G35's software based 'surround'.

With my G35, I can tell the general direction of a sound, like if it was behind me, but rarely can I tell if the sound is from behind and to the left, or behind and to the right. Quite often it is just completely wrong, especially with voice coming from a character; you can see them, yet spin around and the sound will not 'stay' in that direction according to which direction you are facing.

The Astro set seemed to work much better; not having as much of the issues mentioned above.

 

[videogames101]

as a general rule stereo headphones will outperform any sort of 7.1 headphones at the same price point, especially if you couple them with a decent surround card.

this card for dolby:

http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-XONAR-Hea.../dp/B0045JHJSS

with this clip-on mic:

http://www.amazon.com/Zalman-Zm-Mic1.../dp/B00029MTMQ

with either of these headphones, based on your budget:

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-.../dp/B0042A68R8

or

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-504.../dp/B004FEEY9A



if you're looking for a simple all-in-one one size fits all kind of solution, astro makes the highest quality "surround" headsets, but you'll be paying upwards of $200 i believe

otherwise, any of the three you listed will perform similarly, and will all be worse than creating your own setup with stereo headphones as mentioned above

 

[yhelothar]

Have you ever tried any?

My friend had an Astro (I think) headset with multiple speakers in each ear cup, and it was far better than my G35's software based 'surround'.

With my G35, I can tell the general direction of a sound, like if it was behind me, but rarely can I tell if the sound is from behind and to the left, or behind and to the right. Quite often it is just completely wrong, especially with voice coming from a character; you can see them, yet spin around and the sound will not 'stay' in that direction according to which direction you are facing.

The Astro set seemed to work much better; not having as much of the issues mentioned above.

The astro appears to use Dolby headphone as well, like the G35
http://www.amazon.co.uk/ASTRO-Astro-Gaming-Dolby-0817161010799/dp/B0091WIOJ2

 

[yhelothar]

As far as I know, CMSS-3D uses the ALchemy/OpenAL library to generate sounds with raw position data, while dolby headphone simply mixes it down from an already generated 5.1/7.1 stream from the game (which CMSS-3D does too, for games without OpenAL/DS3D)
Which makes CMSS-3D vastly superior to DH with those kind of games since it's beyond 7.1. It's a true binaural virtual holographic sound space.

I'd recommend a Creative card for CMSS-3D.

Here's another great demonstration of a true binaural holographic sound space.
https://www.naturespace.com/

 

[vbuggy]

I'd go for the Vengeance as the closest replacement if all you do is game. For me, the G35 does 3D direction location as well as other solutions like Razer Surround or Dolby Headphone found on soundcards, but do depth layering a lot better than RS and even other DH soundcard-based solutions like Asus's STX / Xonar series. The Corsair is the closest thing around now, though the more expensive Astro is definitely a contender (and probably the best integrated solution).

If you want more versatility in the sound - since these aren't exactly giant-killers in terms of their musical capability, you'll need to give up the good 3D and move to slightly more mediocre 3D in the form of solutions like Razer Surround or indeed CMSS-3D as mentioned above.

The advantage of Razer Surround is that you can use any headphone, you don't have to buy a soundcard and that you can customise it to a degree not possible on some soundcards. However, once they start charging for it (say $20/year) that does mean it does add up over time, and the customisation is at the moment strictly limited to tweaking slightly where the sounds are coming from, and not how far away (which, again as I mentioned, the dedicated DH headsets do better).

 

[yhelothar]

I'd go for the Vengeance as the closest replacement if all you do is game. For me, the G35 does 3D direction location as well as other solutions like Razer Surround or Dolby Headphone found on soundcards, but do depth layering a lot better than RS and even other DH soundcard-based solutions like Asus's STX / Xonar series. The Corsair is the closest thing around now, though the more expensive Astro is definitely a contender (and probably the best integrated solution).

If you want more versatility in the sound - since these aren't exactly giant-killers in terms of their musical capability, you'll need to give up the good 3D and move to slightly more mediocre 3D in the form of solutions like Razer Surround or indeed CMSS-3D as mentioned above.

The advantage of Razer Surround is that you can use any headphone, you don't have to buy a soundcard and that you can customise it to a degree not possible on some soundcards. However, once they start charging for it (say $20/year) that does mean it does add up over time, and the customisation is at the moment strictly limited to tweaking slightly where the sounds are coming from, and not how far away (which, again as I mentioned, the dedicated DH headsets do better).

I'm curious, where do these devices receive the signal to do depth layering? What kind of information does it use to determine depth? The output to these devices is 7.1 channels of information. How does it determine depth from that signal?

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Tom's hardware recently did a review that may help you.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...k,3125-12.html
Take vbuggys advice and go for the vengence headset

 

[yhelothar]

I recommend these audiophile earphones.
http://www.jr.com/etymotic-research/pe/ETY_HF5COBALT/

They are known for microscopic detail and sublime clarity that's critical for providing the subtle cues that lead to the perception of direction and depth in sound. This results in holographic imaging and sublime instrument separation. It's the closest thing to a direct sonic connection to the brain.

These are designed by world-class leaders in audio science so that you hear exactly what you would if you were actually there in the virtual world. Etymotic design their earphones so that its output replicates with an incredibly high accuracy of what's measured with microphones in the ears of a manikin's head that has the same acoustical properties of the average head and ears.

http://www.etymotic.com/technology/hwmra.html


Pair this with a soundcard that supports CMSS3D and a game that supports OpenAL.

You'll be able to pinpoint sounds in a perfect omnidirectional 3D space.

 

[vbuggy]

I'm curious, where do these devices receive the signal to do depth layering? What kind of information does it use to determine depth? The output to these devices is 7.1 channels of information. How does it determine depth from that signal?

That would be the Dolby Headphone processing. The thing is, implementation of DH effectiveness do vary.

 

[vbuggy]

I recommend these audiophile earphones.
http://www.jr.com/etymotic-research/pe/ETY_HF5COBALT/

They are known for microscopic detail and sublime clarity

that's borne out of effectively over-driving a single balanced armature driver so that it yields levels of distortion that are perceived as additional detail in the form of sonic texture, yeah.

Etymotics are a waste of time if you're actually after accuracy in sound especially in a balanced armature. Go multi-driver with a proper crossover.

 

[yhelothar]

that's borne out of effectively over-driving a single balanced armature driver so that it yields levels of distortion that are perceived as additional detail in the form of sonic texture, yeah.

Etymotics are a waste of time if you're actually after accuracy in sound especially in a balanced armature. Go multi-driver with a proper crossover.

It's multi-drivers that are prone to interference as the multiple sound sources in close proximity will be prone to phase coherence. http://www.head-fi.org/t/364089/single-driver-vs-multiple-drivers-my-thoughts-on-the-trend

Accuracy is the one thing Etymotic is actually renown for, and their testing methodology is a testament to that. I dare you to find a single review criticizing Etymotic of their accuracy.
There's a reason why Etymotic has a huge passionate following amongst headphone enthusiasts on head-fi.

 

[mindbomb]

As far as I know, CMSS-3D uses the ALchemy/OpenAL library to generate sounds with raw position data, while dolby headphone simply mixes it down from an already generated 5.1/7.1 stream from the game (which CMSS-3D does too, for games without OpenAL/DS3D)
Which makes CMSS-3D vastly superior to DH with those kind of games since it's beyond 7.1. It's a true binaural virtual holographic sound space.

for asus sound cards, if you use gx mode with a game that had hardware acceleration on windows xp (team fortress 2 for example, if you set snd_surround_speakers 7 and snd_legacy_surround 1), you can actually still get hardware acceleration of all the raw data. but it still doesn't change the fact that dolby headphone only works on things up to 7.1 channels, so in this case, the sound card is mixing to 7.1 rather than the game, before dolby headphone mixing it to stereo. I actually suspect the same thing is happening in your cmss 3d example.

 

[vbuggy]

It's multi-drivers that are prone to interference as the multiple sound sources in close proximity will be prone to phase coherence. http://www.head-fi.org/t/364089/single-driver-vs-multiple-drivers-my-thoughts-on-the-trend

Only really with something like Triple.Fi - and there's a good reason why it's the cheapest and worst multi driver - which is nevertheless praised by the sort of people who also swallow Etymotic's claims wholesale.

And also touching on a point you made earlier - clearly without any relevant knowledge but by typical Head-Fi-grade assumptions - the multiple speaker solution isn't necessarily a gimmick for gaming. Especially at the lower end, it can work better than some poorly implemented software surround solutions. It's just that the headset is more ungainly due to more drivers and each driver is more musically compromised due to small drivers - but again, these aren't necessarily demerits in gaming audio. Personally I prefer software solutions on dedicated stereo headsets when they work well, but 'real' multi speaker headsets for gaming is still a legitimate choice.

 

[yhelothar]

for asus sound cards, if you use gx mode with a game that had hardware acceleration on windows xp (team fortress 2 for example, if you set snd_surround_speakers 7 and snd_legacy_surround 1),

I miss the old days of EAX and hardware acceleration on WinXP. I rarely find a game that has the same level of audio realism nowadays. :\

Only really with something like Triple.Fi - and there's a good reason why it's the cheapest and worst multi driver - which is nevertheless praised by the sort of people who also swallow Etymotic's claims wholesale.

And also touching on a point you made earlier - clearly without any relevant knowledge but by typical Head-Fi-grade assumptions - the multiple speaker solution isn't necessarily a gimmick for gaming. Especially at the lower end, it can work better than some poorly implemented software surround solutions. It's just that the headset is more ungainly due to more drivers and each driver is more musically compromised due to small drivers - but again, these aren't necessarily demerits in gaming audio. Personally I prefer software solutions on dedicated stereo headsets when they work well, but 'real' multi speaker headsets for gaming is still a legitimate choice.

Maybe. I'll concede that I haven't tried the multi speaker headsets. It just doesn't seem like it makes sense over virtual surround and a pair of decent stereo headphones to me. For less than $10, you can get a pretty kickass pair of earphones from monoprice. http://www.monoprice.com/Product?se...&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CMnbnfjc-7oCFY9sfgod-WQAKA

Pair that with DH7.1 or CMSS3D soundcard for $20-30, you're under the cost of the entry level multi-speaker ones that are known to sound muddy. I could be totally wrong though.

I could be biased towards Etymotic. Their original design is their ER4B, with the B denoting binaural, and they were always coveted as one of the best binaural solutions.
http://headphonehaven.com/topic/389934/1/

It's only later that they tuned their ER4B to sound good with stereo recordings with the ER4S, although it still carries much of the same design philosophy that made it so great for binaural. Later they released the HF3 at a very affordable $99 price range that most say sounds very similar to the $299 ER4S. I just can't think of a better solution at $100 for 3D reproduction. IMHO.

Maybe I'm wrong and the multispeaker headphones are better or a Corsair Vengeance eh?

 

[jumpman54]

Not quite,

I'm talking about headphones that have multiple speakers to simulate the 7.1 experience...you can see what I'm talking about here :
http://assets.hardwaresphere.com/up...71-surround-sound-speaker-headset-diagram.jpg

Check out the Razor Tiamat 7.1. It has distinct speakers for each channel and you will need 8 audio jacks on your sound card. Only downside is that it is not wireless.

 

[fastamdman]

I'm using the steelseries siberia v2's. I can tell you from being a past professional gamer, that this set of phones is absolutely amazing. The way they fit and feel on your head is perfect, the mic is as clear as possible and the surround sound capabilities are just fine. If you play a lot of first person shooters, counter-strike, battlefield, things like that you need a good set of cans to be able to hear left/right coming from the back. Not all can do it well, but the steelseries siberia v2's are perfect. Heres a link bud.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16826249083

 

[vbuggy]

I could be biased towards Etymotic.

Ya think?

Their original design is their ER4B, with the B denoting binaural, and they were always coveted as one of the best binaural solutions.
http://headphonehaven.com/topic/389934/1/

It's only later that they tuned their ER4B to sound good with stereo recordings with the ER4S, although it still carries much of the same design philosophy that made it so great for binaural. Later they released the HF3 at a very affordable $99 price range that most say sounds very similar to the $299 ER4S. I just can't think of a better solution at $100 for 3D reproduction. IMHO.

Maybe I'm wrong and the multispeaker headphones are better or a Corsair Vengeance eh?

Less 'maybe' but more 'couldn't be more', definitely as far as any gaming audio is concerned - even taking into account just the response within a typical gaming audio frequency range between a single-driver Ety and e.g. the G35.

The less 'audiophiles' we have spouting about stuff they have no / totally one-sided experience about, the better IMO. I've come across the same types who were arguing against me when I posted about the gaming experience between my Orpheus with CMSS and a multi-driver headset, they were trying to tell me what I was hearing was wrong. No amount of rolleyes could offset that kind of aggressive ego-based peer-group-amplified ignorance borne out of reading too much Head-Fi crap, because the S/N ratio on that site is appalling (ironically) now. Every time I go back I'm glad I bugged out as an active member in the early Y2K's.

 

[yhelothar]

I'm willing to concede if evidence is presented that shows I'm wrong. But if all you can do is to throw ad hominem attacks, that is not a discussion. That is a waste of time.
You haven't made any arguments on why the 7.1 multispeaker headphones actually worth a damn other than your assertions. You have two ears, and yet it's enough for you to pinpoint all the sounds around you with it. It's easily shown that two speaker earphones can give you the best 3d experience possible if you just simply listened to a binaural recording like the barber shop or naturespace one I've already linked to. CMSS-3D replicates this. Quality headphones with good spatial imaging and a deep soundstage reproduces this optimally.

 

[DigDog]

binaural is a form of recording, not playback.
it concernes the use of a physical filter (a head) and two stereo microphones.

(also, what yhelo said)

 

[richaron]

(also, what yhelo said)

what he said