Question (FYI), GTX 1660 Super available on Newegg for $800

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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Nvidia should keep all founders cards to themselves and inspect all buyer history and only sell to those with a history of buying normal GPU quantities over the years.

Well that sounds wonderfully Orwellian. Do I need to provide a DNA sample to go along with all of that?

Never mind that it won't work. My check would come up clean, but as soon as I find out that someone will pay double for the GPU I just bought I really have to ask myself how much a care about having a fancy new GPU. If I wouldn't buy it for twice (or whatever it may be) the cost, there's really no reason why I should hold on to it if I could sell it for twice what I paid.

The industry will go to hell fast if gamers can't game.

Did your current card stop working? Don't get me wrong, I'd really like to upgrade right now since my existing hardware is getting rather long in the tooth, but it still works. The PC gaming market isn't going anywhere and if anything it might just mean that developers focus more on ensuring newer titles run better on the older hardware that more gamers own.
 

aleader

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Oct 28, 2013
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The PC gaming market isn't going anywhere and if anything it might just mean that developers focus more on ensuring newer titles run better on the older hardware that more gamers own.
It may not go anywhere, but it certainly isn't going to expand with very powerful new consoles on the market (if you can get one of course). I don't play any games that can be played on console, but there are a whole lot that do (FPS games mainly) and honestly if I did, I'd certainly spend 1/4 the cash on a console to get basically the same experience, but with way less hassle (drivers, etc), and on a 4K TV to boot.
 

aleader

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Oct 28, 2013
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FWIW, I've got a GTX 1660 Super coming that I paid $349 for @ Newegg. I even consider that a "high" price. (My other 1660 Super is only making $1.50-$2 / day.)

Why are you only making $1.50 - $2 per day? I just plugged my numbers into Whattomine (32.2 MH/s, 112W at the wall) and it's up around $2.90 USD per day after power costs. For what I paid, it has a quicker payoff that my 5700XT.
 

aleader

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Oct 28, 2013
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Waiting for Ampere was a huge mistake (in retrospect). A 2060S for like $400 would have been a huge upgrade he could have made a year (or more ago). Right when cheap 2060/2070 cards were supposed to be available Eth/BTC went nuts, COVID was here and it all went to crap and his plan blew up. I tried to land some of the ~$400 2070S/2080/2080S that were on local marketplaces but they got snapped up stupid fast.
You could have also got a good 5700XT (Gigabyte or Sapphire) for $380-ish in Nov. 2020. That's what I paid for mine, and they were easily available for over a month. Moot point now though ;)
 
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moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
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Well that sounds wonderfully Orwellian. Do I need to provide a DNA sample to go along with all of that?

Never mind that it won't work. My check would come up clean, but as soon as I find out that someone will pay double for the GPU I just bought I really have to ask myself how much a care about having a fancy new GPU. If I wouldn't buy it for twice (or whatever it may be) the cost, there's really no reason why I should hold on to it if I could sell it for twice what I paid.



Did your current card stop working? Don't get me wrong, I'd really like to upgrade right now since my existing hardware is getting rather long in the tooth, but it still works. The PC gaming market isn't going anywhere and if anything it might just mean that developers focus more on ensuring newer titles run better on the older hardware that more gamers own.

If the bottom line is gamers getting GPUs, then something has to give. There is no polite solution. They need to stop others from buying them and let gamers buy them instead. If not, then gamers won't get any. It's that simple. I don't expect anything like this to happen, but that's what would be required. Extreme measures would be necessary, but don't worry, they won't do it. So the GPU world will remain anti-Orwellian. If it keeps going like this the industry will suffer.
Without a new GPU people will build far less new rigs. That means way less gaming peripherals and much less new software being purchased. If Battlefield 6 comes out and I don't have a new GPU I won't even bother buying the game. Think I'm the only one? It will definitely dent the PC sales of the game. New games coming out with fancy ray tracing effects that no one can use or run at good framerates. It will start to tank sales.
Also, youtube reviewers are going to get way less views. Who can force themselves to give a crap about some reviewer talking up a new GPU that no one can buy. Might as well stop watching?
 
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blckgrffn

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You could have also got a good 5700XT (Gigabyte or Sapphire) for $380-ish in Nov. 2020. That's what I paid for mine, and they were easily available for over a month. Moot point now though ;)

Ha, got my personal 5700xt in December 2019 for about $360 :D. I meant, it’s going to have value for awhile even without ETH.

My cousin was all set on buying a 3080, and then you couldn’t buy one so anything 2070S or better then... well here we are today and he was upset at not even getting a 3060. He’s not a super shopper as a early teen... I should have gotten serious about helping him sooner.
 
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aleader

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Ha, got my personal 5700xt in December 2019 for about $360 :D. I meant, it’s going to have value for awhile even without ETH.

My cousin was all set on buying a 3080, and then you couldn’t buy one so anything 2070S or better then... well here we are today and he was upset at not even getting a 3060. He’s not a super shopper as a early teen... I should have gotten serious about helping him sooner.

I waffled for an entire week at that price thinking it was ridiculous to pay so much for a (Sapphire Pulse) 5700XT at that point. I could have paid about $50 less for an ASRock card, but I'm very glad I didn't. The 3080 is apparently available (at least this guy doesn't do elaborate, in-your-face unboxing ceremonies...but still has to do the unboxing thing):


At this point, I think mining is the sole reason supply hasn't become much better. There's no way this guy is going to make the ROI he thinks he is....unless miner profits stay sky high PAST EIP 1559 in July, which they can't. He also omits the roughly 30% income tax he must be paying if cashing all of this out.

He's in Canada, so it won't cost him anything to hold, but ROI gets longer and longer if you hold forever. There's also opportunity costs (he could easily sell all this stuff for double what he paid) and time value of money to consider. Now, if you could get them from NerdGearz, the cards alone would cost around $15,000 CAD by the time they were shipped. That is one seriously risky 'investment' at this point.
 

Mopetar

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Jan 31, 2011
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It may not go anywhere, but it certainly isn't going to expand with very powerful new consoles on the market (if you can get one of course). I don't play any games that can be played on console, but there are a whole lot that do (FPS games mainly) and honestly if I did, I'd certainly spend 1/4 the cash on a console to get basically the same experience, but with way less hassle (drivers, etc), and on a 4K TV to boot.

High-end gaming PCs are a tiny minority of the PC gaming market. Most of it is stuff like League of Legends or Fortnight that will run on a potato. Even though consoles have a lot of FPS games ported over to them, I honestly wouldn't want to play without a keyboard and mouse. The frame rates are usually poor as well and unlike a PC game you don't get many options to turn settings down for better frame rates.
 

aleader

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High-end gaming PCs are a tiny minority of the PC gaming market. Most of it is stuff like League of Legends or Fortnight that will run on a potato. Even though consoles have a lot of FPS games ported over to them, I honestly wouldn't want to play without a keyboard and mouse. The frame rates are usually poor as well and unlike a PC game you don't get many options to turn settings down for better frame rates.

I don't disagree with you, but my two teenage sons and all of their friends certainly do ;) Other than my 19 year old, not one of them owns a PC, and that's only because I have given him a lot of my stuff. They basically only play COD, a little Red Dead 2, and will likely get BF 6 whenever it comes out. They tell me Fortnite is for little kids (they used to all play it). None of those run on a potato, but yah, there are those super-nerd groups that play those RPGs 24/7 that likely make up the majority of the market.

I'm just saying if it was me sitting here with a GTX 950 or lower and I had to pay $3,000+ to upgrade my PC (monitor included), I'd be taking a long look at $500 consoles. I already have the 4K TV (most do). One thing I really thought was a great deal was my son's $200 Xbox One S also coming with a 4K blu-ray player.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
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I think Nvidia should release the 3080Ti with an MSRP of $5000, allow stock to build up in all the stores for a month, then suddenly drop the price to $1000 unexpectedly. More people would have a chance. As it is now, they might as well not even announce this card and just send an email notification straight to the big mining operations and ship them directly to their address. Pretending like gamers can actually get one is just trolling and mean at this point. Get people's hopes up and then naturally, it goes straight from the countdown to out of stock in less time than in takes to refresh the screen.
 

Mopetar

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Jan 31, 2011
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It really doesn't matter if gamers could get them because if the market price for the cards is $2,000 how many gamers will decide to flip their card now so that they can get a completely new build out of it once the prices normalize? If you think that a certain price is far too much to pay for something then it's also too high for you to hold on to a product instead of selling it if you have one on hand. How many people value a high-end GPU over an extra $1,000 (or maybe even more) in their pocket? At best you're just offering gamers the opportunity to become the scalpers instead of someone else.
 

MrTeal

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Dec 7, 2003
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I think Nvidia should release the 3080Ti with an MSRP of $5000, allow stock to build up in all the stores for a month, then suddenly drop the price to $1000 unexpectedly. More people would have a chance. As it is now, they might as well not even announce this card and just send an email notification straight to the big mining operations and ship them directly to their address. Pretending like gamers can actually get one is just trolling and mean at this point. Get people's hopes up and then naturally, it goes straight from the countdown to out of stock in less time than in takes to refresh the screen.
Just implement the same cap as the 3060, where a 3080 Ti mines at 20-25MH/s. Somewhere 1/8th to 1/6 rate on Eth would effectively kill demand from the mining market.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Just implement the same cap as the 3060, where a 3080 Ti mines at 20-25MH/s. Somewhere 1/8th to 1/6 rate on Eth would effectively kill demand from the mining market.

There are more currencies than just ETH and the Tom's review of the 3060 found at least one that wasn't affected by Nvidia's drivers and I doubt it was the only one. Furthermore, even if they could detect and stop all existing mining algorithms it does nothing against future algorithms or algorithms that get modified to get around the Nvidia blocks.

If you think people won't go to the trouble of any of that then you clearly haven't met any of the people stuffing hundreds of GPUs in a room to solve pointless math problems to get a digital token they can sell to someone else. They're exactly that kind of crazy.
 

MrTeal

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There are more currencies than just ETH and the Tom's review of the 3060 found at least one that wasn't affected by Nvidia's drivers and I doubt it was the only one. Furthermore, even if they could detect and stop all existing mining algorithms it does nothing against future algorithms or algorithms that get modified to get around the Nvidia blocks.

If you think people won't go to the trouble of any of that then you clearly haven't met any of the people stuffing hundreds of GPUs in a room to solve pointless math problems to get a digital token they can sell to someone else. They're exactly that kind of crazy.
There are, but none would be profitable if any substantial hashrate moved over to them. If 1% of the hashrate from Eth moved to Conflux it that would quadruple the size of that network. Ultimately someone needs to be willing to put fiat into that ecosystem in order for mining it to remain profitable.

It's certainly not a cure all, but it would make capital investment into a 3080 Ti farm a much more risky proposition than even the 3060s.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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It's not that simple as there isn't just one currency that you could use. Instead you'd see a move from ETH into all other currencies that aren't hobbled and that frees up hardware that was previously used for mining those currencies to mine ETH instead. Such a move increases the efficiency of both parties and it's the same underlying principle that enables and even encourages different economies to trade due to comparative advantage even if one economy is much larger or efficient than the other.

Additionally it doesn't stop ETH from changing their algorithm to get around the blocks Nvidia put in place. There have been continuous proposals for changes to the algorithm used and there's some idea to eventually move to proof of stake in the future anyways. Nvidia is ultimately on the losing end and if they tried to play cat-and-mouse it would end poorly since the driver overhead would slowly degrade performance as they keep having add additional algorithms to look for. Worse yet, some currency could get quite aggressive and look for an algorithm that uses a problem like ray tracing that would put Nvidia at risk of crippling actual gaming performance if they tried to block it and ran into too many false positives.
 

MrTeal

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It's not that simple as there isn't just one currency that you could use. Instead you'd see a move from ETH into all other currencies that aren't hobbled and that frees up hardware that was previously used for mining those currencies to mine ETH instead. Such a move increases the efficiency of both parties and it's the same underlying principle that enables and even encourages different economies to trade due to comparative advantage even if one economy is much larger or efficient than the other.

Additionally it doesn't stop ETH from changing their algorithm to get around the blocks Nvidia put in place. There have been continuous proposals for changes to the algorithm used and there's some idea to eventually move to proof of stake in the future anyways. Nvidia is ultimately on the losing end and if they tried to play cat-and-mouse it would end poorly since the driver overhead would slowly degrade performance as they keep having add additional algorithms to look for. Worse yet, some currency could get quite aggressive and look for an algorithm that uses a problem like ray tracing that would put Nvidia at risk of crippling actual gaming performance if they tried to block it and ran into too many false positives.
I don't disagree with some of the points, but I unless you can point me to specific examples I can't see where that hashrate could go and still be profitable. Is there not a large amount of hardware that's no longer able to mine Eth because of memory restrictions already on those coins?
Eth is the 900 lbs gorilla of the alt coin space, and even now it's the most profitable going. It's market cap is also orders of magnitude more than other minable coins. Yeah someone could develop RT coin, but who's going pay fiat money to purchase it? Hobbyists will mine and HODL random useless coins to speculate and for funsies, but unless people are willing to inject millions into your ecosystem you can't pay off your cards or power bill.

Eth isn't changing algos to make it easier for miners to acquire a subset of GPUs to mine on. They're already moving past the objections of a lot of large mining players with the latest EIP, and they didn't alter the protocol when only AMD cards could mine Eth reasonably and Maxwell was crap. They have their eyes on 2.0 anyway.

I'm not saying it will work out long term for Nvidia or even that it's in their best interest, but as a miner would you be rushing out to buy a pallet of $1000-$1200 3080 Ti's knowing it has terrible Eth mining performance at the current time if you can get 3 times the hashrate out of a 3060Ti/3070/Navi card, or slightly better performance even from a 1660S?
 

moonbogg

Lifer
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Well that sounds wonderfully Orwellian. Do I need to provide a DNA sample to go along with all of that?

Turns out Linus Tech Tips is doing basically what I said. He announced it recently. He's been working on it for a long time it seems. He's getting a bunch of GPU stock and verifying the customer is an actual gamer before selling it. Maybe you can call him Orwell's Tech Tips. He mentioned one of the middlemen bailed on him and sold his stock to some scalpers or miners for more money. Should we blame that guy for not having integrity and making more money? I say no. It is what it is, but Nvidia and AMD can do more to fight for their industry right now. Linus shouldn't have to do this. You might say Nvidia/AMD don't care because they sell everything. If this keeps up and keeps happening, it will wreck the industry and in the long run will hurt the entire PC gaming industry. It could literally destroy it.
 
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Mopetar

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I don't disagree with some of the points, but I unless you can point me to specific examples I can't see where that hashrate could go and still be profitable. Is there not a large amount of hardware that's no longer able to mine Eth because of memory restrictions already on those coins?

Profitability depends on the current price of the coin and the cost of energy. There used to be plenty of older Turing, Polaris, etc. cards on the used market, but even if they're not ideal mining cards, eventually the price increases made miners scoop up all of those cards. I don't mine, but I understand that ETH requires slightly more than 4 GB which leaves a lot of cards out, but at some point even older cards with that much memory might not be efficient to use due to being built on an older process. I don't know if other currencies face the same memory restrictions as ETH does.

Eth is the 900 lbs gorilla of the alt coin space, and even now it's the most profitable going. It's market cap is also orders of magnitude more than other minable coins.

I checked one website (https://coinmarketcap.com/) that seems to have information related to currencies. ETH is #2 and is collectively worth as much as #'s 3 - 10 combined, but it's by no means the only cryptocurrency. The gap between the next currency and ETH is approximately the same ratio as the gap between ETH and Bitcoin. All of those top ten currencies have a market cap as large as or larger than many companies in the Fortune 500. There are plenty of companies that aren't at the level of Apple or Amazon, but it would be foolhardy to dismiss them as unsuccessful.

Yeah someone could develop RT coin, but who's going pay fiat money to purchase it? Hobbyists will mine and HODL random useless coins to speculate and for funsies, but unless people are willing to inject millions into your ecosystem you can't pay off your cards or power bill.

Even Dogecoin, which to my understanding was started as a bit of a joke, has a valuation of $7 billion. The Brave web browser created a cryptocurrency (Basic Authentication Token) as a means of handling advertising in a less intrusive way. It currently has a market cap of almost $1.2 billion (edit: I had an incorrect number here originally, but it wasn't too far off the correct value) according to the website I previously referenced. All you need is someone to accept the coins as payment for something and they're valuable to anyone who wishes to purchase that thing. From there they can be exchanged for other currencies.

I've thought that most of these cryptocurrencies would be far more useful if they did something other than pointless hash calculations. Obviously a PoW-based scheme requires a problem that's hard to compute, but relatively easy to verify the solution to, but there's no end to real-world problems that require a lot of heavy compute that are probably better candidates.

I merely used ray tracing as an example that's easy to grasp because it's quite clearly a gaming related function, but I'm sure there are other workloads that would be similar enough that could cause false positives. Hell, you could even create some kind of digital currency centered around providing a distributed Stadia-like service where someone is effectively paid to use their GPU to render games for someone else as opposed to using it to find solutions to a hash. Google hasn't killed Stadia (yet) so presumably there are people who would buy some digital currency that pays for the service.
 
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Mopetar

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Turns out Linus Tech Tips is doing basically what I said. He announced it recently. He's been working on it for a long time it seems. He's getting a bunch of GPU stock and verifying the customer is an actual gamer before selling it. Maybe you can call him Orwell's Tech Tips.

I have a feeling he'll discover first hand how much work that actually requires. He can do it as a gimmick for a YouTube video, but imagine having to do that for 300 GPUs and how much time it would take. Having to pay someone to do all of that probably winds up making the GPU cost more than the scalpers charge.

I'm not even sure what kind of personal data you'd have to provide or could to convince him you're a gamer. Does he check in on you from time to time to make sure you still have the card? What happens to you if you sell the GPU later or want to get rid of it for whatever reason? Is he going to make sure you're actually gaming on it and haven't just started mining yourself?

This is a publicity stunt. The last thing the world needs is a GPU nanny-state and I have a feeling Linus won't care to waste any time trying to check in on people or anything else once the video is out the door. He's basically found a way to do a giveaway without actually having to give anything away. Even if the idea is stupid in every other way, it's utterly brilliant marketing.

If this keeps up and keeps happening, it will wreck the industry and in the long run will hurt the entire PC gaming industry. It could literally destroy it.

Is it going to be crushed by the falling sky?
 

MrTeal

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I checked one website (https://coinmarketcap.com/) that seems to have information related to currencies. ETH is #2 and is collectively worth as much as #'s 3 - 10 combined, but it's by no means the only cryptocurrency. The gap between the next currency and ETH is approximately the same ratio as the gap between ETH and Bitcoin. All of those top ten currencies have a market cap as large as or larger than many companies in the Fortune 500. There are plenty of companies that aren't at the level of Apple or Amazon, but it would be foolhardy to dismiss them as unsuccessful.



Even Dogecoin, which to my understanding was started as a bit of a joke, has a valuation of $7 billion. The Brave web browser created a cryptocurrency (Basic Authentication Token) as a means of handling advertising in a less intrusive way. It currently has a market cap of almost $800 million according to the website I previously referenced. All you need is someone to accept the coins as payment for something and they're valuable to anyone who wishes to purchase that thing. From there they can be exchanged for other currencies.
The only coins in the top 10 of that list you mentioned that can be mined are Bitcoin, Eth, and Litecoin. BTC and LTC are SHA (edit: and Scrypt) and effectively not GPU minable. In fact the first GPU mineable coin on that list outside Eth is Dogecoin. I'm not even sure how to value Dogecoin's market cap given it's extreme circulation and that it started as a meme coin that likely has an even larger percentage of it's supply lost than BTC does.
 
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Mopetar

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The only coins in the top 10 of that list you mentioned that can be mined are Bitcoin, Eth, and Litecoin. BTC and LTC are SHA (edit: and Scrypt) and effectively not GPU minable. In fact the first GPU mineable coin on that list outside Eth is Dogecoin. I'm not even sure how to value Dogecoin's market cap given it's extreme circulation and that it started as a meme coin that likely has an even larger percentage of it's supply lost than BTC does.

I think that just goes to show the value in a GPU mineable coin. It's no mistake that ETH is popular because it was designed to be ASIC-resistent. Of course that's a bit of a weird notion because unless you have a currency that can change algorithms as needed you can't truly make it ASIC-proof. If it's valuable enough someone will eventually design an ASIC to carry out that function. The sheer fact that all of the GPU owners that do mine and want to use their GPUs to do it immediately creates a market for anyone who can find a way to take advantage of the computational capabilities of those individuals.
 
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Leeea

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It's no mistake that ETH is popular because it was designed to be ASIC-resistent.

I feel Eth is the best of the larger coins bunch because it has some application beyond speculation. Eth's popularity stems from the dream it will have value beyond speculation.

I think the reason Eth is ASIC resistant is the designers of Eth wanted to avoid bitcoins mining centralization. A few big players control bit coin mining now. Eth wanted to make mining more distributed to avoid that.

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It really doesn't matter if gamers could get them because if the market price for the cards is $2,000 how many gamers will decide to flip their card now so that they can get a completely new build out of it once the prices normalize? If you think that a certain price is far too much to pay for something then it's also too high for you to hold on to a product instead of selling it if you have one on hand. How many people value a high-end GPU over an extra $1,000 (or maybe even more) in their pocket? At best you're just offering gamers the opportunity to become the scalpers instead of someone else.

I do not feel gamers would flip their cards like that. I know I am not going to flip mine. I am going to use it to mine* when not gaming.

The high price is a result of these cards being able to return that high price in a few months mining. There is nothing stopping a gamer from keeping their high end card and doing the same thing.


*I am also keeping my old vega 56, I spent $15 on an adaptor to add an extra PCIe slot to my itx mainboard so I could run both video cards at the same time. I intend to just let the old card mine 24/7.
 
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Grooveriding

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My guess on the Linus GPU sales is they are going to ask you to provide your Steam account to them, and/or maybe some of the other current game/store clients as well. Contact you via those clients and verify you somehow. Maybe they ask for your amazon/newegg purchase history.

Can't really see what else you could do to make sure someone actually plays games. Even then you'll have scalpers/miners who have that sort of history to provide.

Feel super lucky to have gotten a 3080 at this point, and I've had one for months now. Just getting lucky on newegg at the right time. My impression is it's no better, and possibly even more difficult, to get your hands on a GPU right now. Ridiculous.

If AMD/nvidia have a foolproof way to cripple mining on their cards, they should be doing it. Mining is not a long-term sales opportunity for them, gaming is. Just shut the whole shitshow down and make their new cards unable to mine if it's possible. Scalping may become a lot less profitable at that point, removing one issue and improving the other.
 
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