Futuremark: Mantle and DirectX 12 said to be similar in performance

[csbin]

http://www.hardwareluxx.com/index.p...ctx-12-said-to-be-similar-in-performance.html


Futuremark has just commented on the "Future of Compute" event by AMD about the differences between Mantle and the approach of DirectX 12 of operating more resource-friendly in some areas. Even though the technical implementation may be different, both APIs are very similar in essence, and this is ultimately reflected in the performance.


Currently, Futuremark is working on a special test which will become part of 3DMark. It compares Draw Call, ie the critical points in the CPU overhead. Currently, the test called "Farandole" is still in the beta phase, but the roadmap shows that it will be published later this year. Moreover, there is a version of 3DMark already in development aimed only at DirectX 12, and to be published in the second half of 2015.

Futuremark CEO

 

[digitaldurandal]

I don't remember for sure, but I think AMD is working with Microsoft on some of the low level API stuff.

 

[KaRLiToS]

So this means Mantle is really revolutionary!

 

[jpiniero]

That does kind of make it obvious that DX12 is basically Mantle.

 

[RussianSensation]

Whether or not DX12 = Mantle we probably won't k or for sure but I think Mantle strongly influenced MS to fix their draw calls. Chances are AMD's engineers helped MS on this one. I don't think DX12 = Mantle exactly but I bet a lot of the optimizations in DX12 related to draw calls are very closely related to Mantle code.

With DX12 lifting the CPU bottleneck, old CPUs like 2500/2600K might get another 1-2 years after 2015 before finally becoming outdated. Hopefully there is also much improve multi-core performance scaling in DX12.

 

[Carfax83]

That does kind of make it obvious that DX12 is basically Mantle.

Or that Mantle is a slimmed down version of DX12. DX12 has been in development for around 4 years according to reports, and it's multivendor unlike Mantle..

A multivendor API would be a greater undertaking to engineer than a single vendor API like Mantle, so it doesn't make much sense to assume that DX12 is based off of Mantle.

 

[BFG10K]

Whether or not DX12 = Mantle we probably won't k or for sure but I think Mantle strongly influenced MS to fix their draw calls.

I'm not sure why this myth keeps getting perpetuated. Microsoft was already improving draw calls way back in 2006. It's one of the reasons Vista got a new driver model.

 

[geoxile]

Or that Mantle is a slimmed down version of DX12. DX12 has been in development for around 4 years according to reports, and it's multivendor unlike Mantle..

A multivendor API would be a greater undertaking to engineer than a single vendor API like Mantle, so it doesn't make much sense to assume that DX12 is based off of Mantle.

IIRC what Nvidia and MS said was that they were discussing how to reduce resource overhead for years. It's a completely vacuous statement when you consider the fact that every succeeding iteration of DX has been about reducing resource overhead relative to the preceding iteration in some way. It doesn't explain why DX12 and Mantle are so similar according to Futuremark and even Johan Andersson himself.

https://twitter.com/repi/status/446718535616585730

It does seem a bit strange that MS, THE software giant, is taking longer than AMD + DICE, two companies that have notorious reputations for being bad software developers, when they only started working on it under 3 years ago.

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/ : 9 months ago

Mantle is a new low-level graphics API that we’ve been working very closely with AMD on over the last 2 years and it is a major change & improvement to how we are able to program & use modern GPUs in order to get the most out of them.

 

[jpiniero]

I'm not sure why this myth keeps getting perpetuated. Microsoft was already improving draw calls way back in 2006. It's one of the reasons Vista got a new driver model.

It's obvious that AMD and Dice were upset about the draw calls and had to do Mantle to get MS's attention to actually fix it. I'm not complaining at all, I'm glad they did it esp since they managed to get Intel and nVidia on board on DX12.

The question becomes will developers actually use it if it's not available on Windows 7.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I'm not sure why this myth keeps getting perpetuated. Microsoft was already improving draw calls way back in 2006. It's one of the reasons Vista got a new driver model.

Well they failed, hence the reason DX12 addresses the issue, according to Microsoft DX12 will improve draw calls dramatically.

For example, many GPUs combine pixel shader and output merger state into a single hardware representation, but because the Direct3D 11 API allows these to be set separately, the driver cannot resolve things until it knows the state is finalized, which isn’t until draw time. This delays hardware state setup, which means extra overhead, and fewer maximum draw calls per frame.

Direct3D 12 addresses this issue by unifying much of the pipeline state into immutable pipeline state objects (PSOs), which are finalized on creation. This allows hardware and drivers to immediately convert the PSO into whatever hardware native instructions and state are required to execute GPU work. Which PSO is in use can still be changed dynamically, but to do so the hardware only needs to copy the minimal amount of pre-computed state directly to the hardware registers, rather than computing the hardware state on the fly. This means significantly reduced draw call overhead, and many more draw calls per frame.

 

[BFG10K]

It does seem a bit strange that MS, THE software giant, is taking longer than AMD + DICE, two companies that have notorious reputations for being bad software developers, when they only started working on it under 3 years ago.

Why is that strange?

Mantle: works on a handful of cherry picked cards, is still in beta and not even finished, and still has issues.There's still no sign of the 285 getting performance fixes for BF4 or Thief.

DX12: tied to the OS driver model and needs to be multi-vendor and non-beta.

Microsoft doesn't have the luxury of RTM'ing a product in the state that Mantle is currently in.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Mantle: works on a handful of cherry picked cards, is still in beta and not even finished, and still has issues

DX12. Not available for another 13+ months.

 

[KaRLiToS]

DX12. Not available for another 13+ months.

Not according to some rumors. I heard April 2015.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Not according to some rumors. I heard April 2015.

Provide source.

DirectX 12 has been announced by Microsoft at GDC on the 20th of March 2014 and is targeted for Holiday 2015 games.

 

[BFG10K]

Well they failed,

They did not; DX10 has a lower overhead than DX9 for draw calls. This is trivially demonstrable in code.

hence the reason DX12 addresses the issue, according to Microsoft DX12 will improve draw calls dramatically.

Nobody said DX10 was the "end game" and that no further improvements were possible. But stating Microsoft were only prompted to improve draw calls because of Mantle is absolutely false.

The problem was recognized and being worked on years before Mantle even started being developed.

DX12. Not available for another 13+ months.

The DX12 SDK is already available to select developers in beta form, just like Mantle.

Now, if you want a polished general release (which Mantle is NOT), nobody's denying that it'll take longer. Microsoft is required work to higher standards than Mantle, but all indications are that it'll arrive finished with Windows 10 next year.

 

[Paul98]

I know last month you could sign up for beta access with unreal engine 4.

 

[AnandThenMan]

But stating Microsoft were only prompted to improve draw calls because of Mantle is absolutely false.

Connecting the dots is pretty easy on this one. But you seem to have a hate on for Mantle so I'll take your opinion with that in mind. As for Microsoft, you must be talking about a different company because if there is any software maker out there that releases products that are not exactly polished it would be Microsoft. In fact it has almost always taken MS at least one service pack to get things in fair order, often more than one.

 

[Carfax83]

DX12. Not available for another 13+ months.

The fact that NVidia already has a working DX12 driver, and there are several benchmarks from various IHVs and ISVs tell me that it's not that far off..

Officially though, we can expect it to ship with Windows 10 like BFG10K said.

 

[geoxile]

Why is that strange?

Mantle: works on a handful of cherry picked cards, is still in beta and not even finished, and still has issues.There's still no sign of the 285 getting performance fixes for BF4 or Thief.

DX12: tied to the OS driver model and needs to be multi-vendor and non-beta.

Microsoft doesn't have the luxury of RTM'ing a product in the state that Mantle is currently in.

This is funny. Comparing Mantle, (months old) in-product examples, to the planned capabilities of DX12. Well according to AMD the first public release of Mantle by the end of this year will include development tools for third party hardware, meaning it is also planned to be generic.

In reality it's more like this:
Mantle: Support for multi-vendor and launch within the year. A little less than 3 years dev time total.

DX12: Support for multi-vendor and launch by holiday 2015. Supposedly around 5 years of dev time.

 

[AnandThenMan]

The fact that NVidia already has a working DX12 driver, and there are several benchmarks from various IHVs and ISVs tell me that it's not that far off..

How far off? Microsoft says holiday 2015 if you have a source that says otherwise then post it. And post these benches and info on the Nvidia driver I have not seen anything on this.

 

[KaRLiToS]

http://www.loadthegame.com/2014/10/03/windows-10-will-ship-directx-12-says-microsoft/

AnandThenMan , that is why I said rumors.

__________________________________

Also, Mantle = AMD = hate

Same old people on that bandwagon, it's redundant and pathetic. I saw many "Nvidia" in this thread, yet, Nvidia is never mentionned in the article.

When AMD does something good, it's imminent they will get bashed. People can't realized that Mantle helped to push that kind of API.

Oh well !!

Bye.

 

[AnandThenMan]

From your link:

Speaking of the release date, Windows 10 was previously rumored to launch sometime in April 2015. However, Microsoft stated that the operating system will only arrive sometime later next year so we should only expected it during Q3 at the earliest.

It would be nice if Win10 was available first half of 2015 but I don't see that happening.

 

[BFG10K]

But you seem to have a hate on for Mantle so I'll take your opinion with that in mind.

APIs that lock you too a hardware vendor are bad for the customer. They splinter the market. Hardware PhysX is just as bad in this respect.

Those mistakes were made back in 1990s, yet some companies absolutely insist on revisiting that scenario as if this is something new. The people pushing Mantle clearly weren't around in the industry during that period. It's no surprise that the likes of Carmack and Sweeney oppose it.

As for Microsoft, you must be talking about a different company because if there is any software maker out there that releases products that are not exactly polished it would be Microsoft. In fact it has almost always taken MS at least one service pack to get things in fair order, often more than one.

When you're dealing with the complexity of multiple millions of lines of code in modern OSes, it's reasonable to expect some bugs.

It's not just Microsoft, look how many bugs OSX and Linux distros ship with, and you could argue they should be better given OS X's closed ecosystem, and the alleged advantages of open source ("millions of eyes looking at the source code").

There are many people running the pre-release Windows 10 on live systems, and it already works well enough for them.

 

[geoxile]

APIs that lock you too a hardware vendor are bad for the customer. They splinter the market. Hardware PhysX is just as bad in this respect.

Those mistakes were made back in 1990s, yet some companies absolutely insist on revisiting that scenario as if this is something new. The people pushing Mantle clearly weren't around in the industry during that period. It's no surprise that the likes of Carmack and Sweeney oppose it.

When you're dealing with the complexity of multiple millions of lines of code in modern OSes, it's reasonable to expect some bugs.

It's not just Microsoft, look how many bugs OSX and Linux distros ship with, and you could argue they should be better given OS X's closed ecosystem, and the alleged advantages of open source ("millions of eyes looking at the source code").

There are many people running the pre-release Windows 10 on live systems, and it already works well enough for them.

I'm not sure why people are so suspicious of AMD's intent. How open Mantle itself will be remains to be seen, that much is true, but if AMD says they handed it over to Khronos to use freely for OpenGL- given no one has come out opposing this statement - I'll believe them. That much means that all the Khronos board members have access to it and Mantle's spec has been opened up to the only consortium actually maintaining an open API at the moment.

Hell, when Huddy initially stated this people actually treated like it was a malicious act.

 

[BFG10K]

In reality it's more like this:
Mantle: Support for multi-vendor and launch within the year. A little less than 3 years dev time total.

You're absolutely dreaming if you think anyone outside AMD is going to support Mantle. And as soon as DX12 hits, Mantle will become a footnote in history.

As for multi-vendor support, what chance does that have if it can't even run properly on AMD's own hardware? Has the 285's Mantle performance in Thief and BF4 been patched yet? Or do we just pretend this serious design flaw doesn't exit?

What happens if by some miracle Intel and nVidia support Mantle? Can we expect every Mantle game to receive constant patches by the developer every time one of the three vendors release new graphics cards?

Because if we don't we'll have a repeat of the 285 situation across all three vendors.