Future TV video recording format that will replace VHS

[c627627]

What will replace VHS tapes as a new universal video recording format for future real high definition TVs that will be in use at the end of the decade?

How does the release of Blu-Ray formats promoted by Sony factor in when you see Toshiba and NEC now releasing yet another format, which may give four times the capacity of existing disks?


What do you see as a defacto replacement of VHS?

 

[Fallen Kell]

Well, you see the main problem is the entry price. Right now, just about everyone has a VHS VRC. They do a decent job with the existing format. Enough so that the only people who really notice poor quality are ones how have very good TV's. With the price of a decent VCR at about $50-80, it is going to be very hard for a new standard to push into this market at the current time. Most solutions that currently exist (DVD burners) cost in the $300-600 range. And again, you will not really see any performance increase unless you already have a new high quality TV. There are so few benefits right now to the general population that upgrading to a new technology format is just not worth it.

Two things need to happen before people will start to upgrade. Cost of new technologies comes down dramatically and existing customers upgrade their TV's to new high quality versions. A third thing also needs to happen, the killer application also needs to be created with these new generation recorders. Tivo's might be on the correct path to that killer app, but they lack the permenent archivablity that is needed to go with it. Sony is currently trying something, but it will fail only because it is giving too much control to the media companies with reguards to what people can record with their system. Basically if you combine the new Tivo service (the one with network streaming video and PVR capabilities) along with a DVD burner, you would probably have a solution that people would want to actually buy (minus the subscription service). This system should be completely strings free. No monthly fee's or hidden charges. It needs to be fully controlable by the customer with no restrictions to what they can and can not record and for how long they can store it.

Remember it also needs to be low cost as well. If a system like the one I described above becomes available in the $180-250 range, people will buy into this new technology and finally replace their VCR's. But we are not quite at this price yet. A small sized hard drive can be used in this system, only needing about 20-40 gigs of space (since you can burn the movies you want to DVD, you only need to store a few on the system itself for streaming capability and for viewing/evaluation for burn). But with DVD burners for PC's still priced at about $200, a burner with the logic to do the PVR abilities as well as network streaming, this unit in todays price is probably in the $600-800 range still, which is just too expensive to be feasible.

 

[c627627]

OK. So the price will be a big factor in what will finally evolve as a new standard.

It is my understanding that current DVD media will go the way of LP records because the kind of HDTV that will be available by the end of the decade will use different DVD media.

Is building a DVD collection now kind of like building an LP collection in early nineties when low priced CDs were just around the corner?

 

[Justin218]

I guess it would depend on what you are collecting. TV shows that were not recorded in HDTV for instance, it wouldn't hurt to collect those. But to collect movies that might be converted from their higher quality film to this new HDTV format would not be too smart. But that is all counting on this format to arrive soon... It could arrive in 5 or 15. Who knows. How long did we use VCR tapes until the switch to DVD came? HDTV might not even succeed either.

 

[everman]

Blue Ray will probably be the choice in the future for recording HDTV. But by the time that happens I'd bet that the price of hard drive storage will be very cheap and definitly faster than blue ray. Maybe something with primary HD storage, with blue ray used for a removable media. The price is already under $1/gb, in 10 yrs I can't imagine what we'll be at then.

 

[Fallen Kell]

On a side note, you can be like me and build your next computer with this ability now...but like I said, it will cost you. I'm spending about $3k on parts for my new box and putting it together myself (I spec'ed it out for a retailer/custom build and it would have cost $5k). Anyway, like I said you will pay for it, but my solution is also taking in account that I also want the best video card I can get.

It would be possible to build a cheap system in the $950 range that does video capture and DVD burning, as well as DVR capabilities (and network streamed video). But that is still a far cry from the $150-250 range that this needs to be for people to really buy into it.

 

[c627627]

Fallen Kell, would much appreciate details about the setup, particularly the software you are using and the format of recording.

More importantly, what do you do for everyday recordings vs. transferring already recorded VHS tape material onto a permanent CD (or DVD) storage.

Because of the rate of degradation of VHS recording even in SP mode, I assume you would recommend transfer onto DVD-R -- (but in what format for best quality to be watched 20 years from now) -- then transferring onto Blu-Ray from DVD-R's in a couple of years. Right?

 

[Jeff7]

Something solid state would be even better of course. With DVD/Blu-ray being used as a rewritable format, the disc could get quite fragmented if it's used to frequently record TV shows. Seek times would need to be greatly increased for that kind of drive, or else some kind of large internal buffer, because there would get to be a lot of skipping in the playback of a fragmented disc. Of course, a buffer probably wouldn't help a whole lot for the recording process.

 

[rbV5]

What will replace VHS tapes as a new universal video recording format for future real high definition TVs that will be in use at the end of the decade?

DVHS is already here and backward compatable with VHS and SVHS.

Here's 1 model

 

[c627627]

Hm... but Digital VHS tape still appears to be magnetic media. Preserving material already recorded on standard VHS tapes for a lifetime still requires transfer to some sort of non-magnetic disc media, doesn't it?

 

[Alistar7]

If you want to record TV shows for later viewing, or create a digital movie collection, why not get a 9700 AIW and a large HDD, preferrably a mirrored RAID for constant backup.

 

[rbV5]

Preserving material already recorded on standard VHS tapes for a lifetime still requires transfer to some sort of non-magnetic disc media, doesn't it?

I was only answering to question of format. DVHS is the current defacto method of recording HD streams. I use my hardrive myself, but I can't just keep buying more hardrives non-magnetic disc media would be my preference.

If you want to record TV shows for later viewing, or create a digital movie collection, why not get a 9700 AIW and a large HDD

AIW 9700 is an analog capture device supporting only NTSC resolution, you currently need an ATSC tuner and a large hardrive for HD streams.

 

[c627627]

Hard Drives are OK for everyday recording but not for storing VHS tapes material long term.
Aren't DVD writers an option? They cost as much as CDRWs did when they came out if not cheaper. But less then a year from now, they should be a lot more affordable.

Having never made a digital video recording I guess my question is:

What changes when you're storing video on DVDRs to be watched ten years from now keeping in mind that by then we'll probably have different format television sets in our living rooms?

 

[bsr]

dvd's already replace vhs in many aspects, but there will be a better technology that will be released by 2006 that will replace dvds. But as with dvds it will probly take awhile for it to catch on... I really ditto the above about recording to hd, that is a good way to record and store video but takes lots of hd space for high quality uncompressed.

 

[c627627]

What kind of better technology is that and where did you hear about it?

 

[zephyrprime]

I think the estimates for price that have been mentioned here aren't adequately taking into account falling prices. The only reason DVD recorders cost so much right now is because of the high initial costs of developing a new product and becuase it's always nice to bilk the early adopters. The thing is, a dvd burner is almost the exact same thing as a cd burner and the price of a dvd burner will fall fast. As far as the video compresser goes, mpeg2 hardware encoders have been around for some years already and given the amount of processing power they need, I can't imagine they are very expensive anymore. I expect a dvd burner using mpeg2 within 1 yr for $300 and that price will fall quickly.

 

[rbV5]

Aren't DVD writers an option?

Not really. DVD writers can barely squeeze out a copy of NTSC resolution video on a single disk now. The DVHS recorder in my Link uses tape capacities of 50GB which give you 4hours recording HD at the highest quality mode, how far would 4.7GB DVD's go?.........not far, not nearly far enough.

 

[c627627]

40 GB disks should be perfect then:

"Toshiba and NEC will take the lead on the format, expected to be released this year, which may give four times the capacity of existing disks. The disks will be the same size and will use leading edge blue ray lasers to increase density.

Reports said that single side and single layer DVDs will provide 20GB of data space and when they're pushed into double layer mode, that means a DVD disk will hold around 40GB of data.
Otherwise the disks will look identical to the current standard, but the players will have to take account of the new format too."
µ
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8797

 

[rbV5]

40 GB disks should be perfect then:

If you can burn dual layers...but 20GB disks would hold a single HD movie...that'd work for me if the media was reasonable.

 

[capybara]

i hate vhs and magnetic media in general. hard drives arent a long term solution at any price . they have a typical lifetime of 3-10 years. all that 5k rpm just wears them out. i was hoping dvd-r or dvd+r prices drop next year to $150 or so and
then ill get one, but after reading that inquirer article, now i want one of those
20 gig dvd burners. THAT is the next killer app!:beer:

 

[c627627]

Can someone clarify if it's the 20-40GB discs we're waiting for or the burners?

In other words, will the DVD burners available today be able to use those future 20-40GB discs?
There's so many formats, it's easy to get confused. Case in point:

"The new Sony RDR-GX7 is compatible with the DVD-RW, DVD+RW and DVD-R recording formats and DVD-RW (VR Video)/-R, DVD+RW/+R, DVD Video, Music CD, CD-R and CD-RW. Each format requires the appropriate type of blank DVD disc be used."

 

[MrChad]

VHS and the ability to freely record televised material may never be replaced. With the DMCA and mandatory digital TV adoption, television and movie studios are pushing to place copy protection on digital broadcasts. This would render TIVOs and other digital recording devices useless without paying some sort of fee.

Article on the topic

 

[thraxes]

I just want one of those high definition Digital Beta machines we have work thank you

The best consumer solution though IMO currently available is a digital satellite DVB-S PCI card. In Germany they are quite common, some have a decryption module that goes into a 3.5" bay that will accept most pay TV cards and it records a native MPEG2 stream onto the HDD (with Dolby Digital 5.1 sound) which can be easily converted to DVD MPEG2 (higher bitrate and different sound multiplexing) or Divx or S-VCD etc... No barriers or lockouts, the downside though is that the versions with decoder cost 300-400 Euro (at an almost 1:1 dollar rate conversion is easy ). Simple software cards without a DSP for aiding the host CPU cost 100 Euro without a decoder. Without the decoder module there are still plenty of free channels and illegal pirate programs that decrypt the pay tv signal using the host CPU .