Fusion vs. Nvidia High End Cards

[dzoner]

We have no idea if buying an AMD board would provide an advantage for high end discrete graphics for AMD discrete cards? That is all speculation at this point. AMD would be dumb as shit to cripple their platform with the very crowd who buys high end cards. THink right now if AMD forced people to buy ATI cards to achieve the highest possible performance on their CPU platform? That pathetic 2:1 ratio they are losing to Intel on Steam would be 4:1 within 18 months. Intel CPU + ATI or Nvidia GPU is the gamers choice. I dont see that changing regardless of fusion.

YOU, perhaps, have no idea. I do. There is plenty of information available from which rational conclusions can be drawn.

Gamers aren't going to care. If they wan't Nvidia, they can still go with non-fusion AMD and Intel systems. AMD is not obliged to provide Nvidia with a level playing field with their Fusion venture.

If gamers see substantial advantages going with an AMD Fusion + AMD graphics board combo that Nvidia doesn't compete with, I doubt gamers are going to lose much sleep over it.

 

[dzoner]

It would be a very, very safe bet. AMD is not capable of producing enough chips to compete with Intel. They could sell every single chip they made for $10K each and it would take them ~ a decade before they would have the ability to produce enough chips to outsell Intel(production time for two new fabs back to back). I'm not saying that AMD can't make a clearly superior product to Intel, we all saw it for quite some time in the Athlon days, but I am saying that they don't have the production capacity to outsell Intel.

AMD is not manufacturing the chips, Globalfoundries and TSMC are, and both are adding huge capacity for new processes.

 

[Lonyo]

It would be a very, very safe bet. AMD is not capable of producing enough chips to compete with Intel. They could sell every single chip they made for $10K each and it would take them ~ a decade before they would have the ability to produce enough chips to outsell Intel(production time for two new fabs back to back). I'm not saying that AMD can't make a clearly superior product to Intel, we all saw it for quite some time in the Athlon days, but I am saying that they don't have the production capacity to outsell Intel.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3863/amd-discloses-bobcat-bulldozer-architectures-at-hot-chips-2010/2

Ontario will integrate two Bobcat cores with an AMD GPU manufactured on TSMC’s 40nm process (Bobcat will be the first x86 core made at TSMC). This will be the first Fusion product to hit the market.

Also a couple of quarters ago, GF wasn't operating at capacity, and AMD was paying for the unused capacity, so they don't even produce enough right now to use their current capacity.
That's not to say they could outsell Intel in terms of number of chips, but they have/had more capacity than they were using, and they also have extra capacity through other fabs like TSMC.
They are a long way behind, but there's no reason that it would take a decade to catch up when there are two companies who can fab chips for them (GF and TSMC).

 

[bryanW1995]

I doubt Fusion will even compete with the slowest NVIDIA card. People are expecting way too much out of it. It's just a replacement for low end computers that have slow CPUs and crap integrated GPUs. So now they will have that slow CPU and crap GPU on one chip.

If anything Fusion is going to get competition from Tegra which is already showing up in Tablets and could easily be put into netbooks, laptops and low end desktops. It's much better suited for smaller devices like that. Not to mention that Sandy Bridge will probably out sell fusion 4 to 1.

1. intel's SB is going to be ~ 5450 level performance. fusion will probably be closer to 5570 instead of 5770, but it will still be very competitive with "the slowest NVIDIA card".
2. don't remember exact stats, but iirc current market is around 60% intel/40% amd. intel is dominant in the high end, so in mid/low it's probably pretty close to 50/50. going to 80/20 when amd has a new offering is so unlikely as to be laughable.

 

[BenSkywalker]

AMD is not manufacturing the chips, Globalfoundries and TSMC are, and both are adding huge capacity for new processes.

GF and TSMC combined can't make enough high end chips to oustell Intel, nevermind that they are between half and a generation and a half behind Intel's fabrication process.

 

[Seero]

I don't know. 15 years ago CPU does everything, soon CPU does everything....

Although it is natural to think that it will rock because the interface distances is much shorter, but is it really better? For CPU/GPU combo to work, almost all assembly code needs to be rewritten, and the OS must be modified for it. Otherwise, it is just a half sized CPU + a half sized GPU without onboard memory.

 

[Dribble]

I'm not sure what most people seem to thing fusion is - I don't understand why there's some assumption it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and is going to change everything? Not sure why there's an obsession with the effect it's going to have on nvidia either?

Fusion is just the amd cpu + gpu on one chip, something intel have been doing for a while now. All that means is the gpu that was integrated onto the motherboard in low end systems now goes straight into the cpu chip. This mostly means lowered costs, nothing more.

As for nvidia - not sure this really has much impact at all. This would kill any amd cpu + low end nvidia gpu combo's, but no one uses that combo anyway as nvidia doesn't make amd motherboards. Hence it was always an amd cpu + low end ati gpu not an nvidia one. Nvidia were used with intel cpu's, and hence have already been screwed when intel both introduced their integrated cpu + gpu, and locked them out of the chipset market.

 

[ModestGamer]

I dont think fusion is going to be that powerful, just think for a minute the size of heatsink you are going to need to cool a couple of 5970's and a CPU all in the same package, even if they manage to reduce the power 20-30% and retain the same performance thats still going to be over 400 watts to cool, good luck pulling that off on air

I bet we see north island at 32nm on a bulldozer APU application. Thats becuase

A the gpu is already done
b why not ?

bulldozer affords a good return on logical cores vrs die space compared to to say a traditional force core cpu. a 2 module bulldozer will be a 4core cpu but smaller then current 4 core offering, roughly 80% of the die space from my reading and understanding. Roughly the same size as a duel core cpu.

Thats gonna afford amd alot of room for gpu. Not to mention the bulldozer based APU could also just get a die size bump and then we are into some serious room. Becuase they can put whatever they want in there. That siad if there is demand for a bulldozer cpu with 5870 etc level graphics AMD can build it and cooling solutions exist to do so easily.

so they have positioned themselves well. Things get uglier for nvidia at 28 and 22 and 18 and 16nm becuase AMD and Intel will be able to fit even more graphic processing power in there.

Nvdia has the same attack in intergrated on board NB chipsets comming from intel as well.

Nvidia will become a consoule provider " last I heard Microsoft and intel where approaching consoule manufacturers with these new products" and then that leaves nvidia where exactly ?

discrete. Thats about it. Unless nvidia can find a way to play nice and integrate itself with intel for there APU ,which could pose a problem for AMD given whats happened lately. I doubt thats going to happen.

fusion is not meant for the gamers market. Its meant for the walmart,bestbuy, target pc buyers who just want a new computer.

It makes the computer cheaper becuase there are less parts to put on the MB.

this is all about OEM's and to some degree i'd bet consoule gamming systems and handheld devices.

Mark my words. Nvidia is going to get squeezed.

 

[tweakboy]

I really think nVidia has something in store for us a big surprise. If you noticed their not doing much after the 480. That will change when the 490 comes out.

Then after the 6xxx AMD comes later this year nvidia will be behind. However sometimes next year Q1 they will release 5xx cards that will match AMD in performance or surpass. Also the 5xx series will take less power, not 335watts but something like 150 or 200watts ... thank you gg and gl just my assumption, IMO, hopefully works out that way.

 

[Idontcare]

I'm not sure what most people seem to thing fusion is - I don't understand why there's some assumption it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and is going to change everything? Not sure why there's an obsession with the effect it's going to have on nvidia either?

The source is obvious...AMD has been telling everyone that "the future is fusion" for the past 2-3 yrs.

If the future is fusion, and your business doesn't have fusion in its roadmap, then apparently your business ain't part of the future...

So where is it coming from? And why are people concerned about the possible impact it will have on Nvidia?

Someone in AMD marketing has gone to great lengths to ensure there is abundant fear, uncertainty, and doubt over the viability of any business that isn't aligned with the same roadmap.

It doesn't help that Intel appears to be endorsing the notion by way of implementing it into their products (sans all the marketing hoopla).

 

[ModestGamer]

I really think nVidia has something in store for us a big surprise. If you noticed their not doing much after the 480. That will change when the 490 comes out.

Then after the 6xxx AMD sometimes next year Q1 they will release 5xx cards that will match AMD in performance or surpass. Also the 5xx series will take less power, not 335watts but something like 150 or 200watts ... thank you gg and gl

honestly by all appearances it looks like AMD/ATI have at least a one generation lead and by AMD having vastly more pooled resources over nvidia any lead nvidia had 2 years ago is a trailing follow right now.

The other issue is low end graphics performance and the serious market share cut that nvidia is going to have to deal with in terms of inegrated grahics which is like 60%+ of the market. Most people buy a computer and never even open the case.

enthausits are a small percentage of pc users in all honesty.

 

[ModestGamer]

The source is obvious...AMD has been telling everyone that "the future is fusion" for the past 2-3 yrs.

If the future is fusion, and your business doesn't have fusion in its roadmap, then apparently your business ain't part of the future...

So where is it coming from? And why are people concerned about the possible impact it will have on Nvidia?

Someone in AMD marketing has gone to great lengths to ensure there is abundant fear, uncertainty, and doubt over the viability of any business that isn't aligned with the same roadmap.

It doesn't help that Intel appears to be endorsing the notion by way of implementing it into their products (sans all the marketing hoopla).

when the market leaders are steering the market. Thats where the market goes.

They want nvidia gone and are doing a fine damn job of boxing out revenue streams.

 

[Medu]

Fusion won't be a direct threat but it might be an indirect threat. Fusion will wipeout the low end and will probably eat into the midrange. If there isn't enough market share left for Nvidia then it might not be worth spending hundreds of millions designing new architectures.

 

[ModestGamer]

Fusion won't be a direct threat but it might be an indirect threat. Fusion will wipeout the low end and will probably eat into the midrange. If there isn't enough market share left for Nvidia then it might not be worth spending hundreds of millions designing new architectures.

Winner winner chicken dinner. they won't have the revenue stream to do so.

 

[sandorski]

If it's 5770 level(first time I've seen that mentioned anywhere) across the board in all situations, Nvidia is definitely in big trouble. That's serious Market penetration at this point anyway. Doubly so if that could be Crossfired.

 

[ModestGamer]

If it's 5770 level(first time I've seen that mentioned anywhere) across the board in all situations, Nvidia is definitely in big trouble. That's serious Market penetration at this point anyway. Doubly so if that could be Crossfired.

could be even higher given the 6770 results. I doubt the first generation fusion chips will get the 6770 stuff but no reason the bulldozer APU will not considering its do out late 2011.

 

[Leyawiin]

AMD high end cards DO directly compete with Nvidia high end cards. If you had a Fusion motherboard and chip and wanted to add a high end graphics board, if buying an AMD board provided substantial advantages over a comparable Nvidia board with that Fusion chip, which would you buy?

I would never buy a CPU/APU/MOBO/whatever that by any means pigeon-holes me into buying their discrete cards to keep from having a crippled system.

 

[Genx87]

could be even higher given the 6770 results. I doubt the first generation fusion chips will get the 6770 stuff but no reason the bulldozer APU will not considering its do out late 2011.

How are they going to overcome the bandwidth limitations? On die local memory?

 

[Wreckage]

I love all this doom and gloom based on a product that does not even exist yet. It's been how late? I thought I read 2006 somewhere. I would not get my hopes up.

 

[ModestGamer]

How are they going to overcome the bandwidth limitations? On die local memory?

ahhh now your thinking. D:

 

[ModestGamer]

I love all this doom and gloom based on a product that does not even exist yet. It's been how late? I thought I read 2006 somewhere. I would not get my hopes up.

Late or not. AMD and Intel are trying to squeeze nvidia out of the low end market. Its also looking to be a good strategy. Especially on small hand held devices and netbooks etc.

 

[Janooo]

If it's 5770 level(first time I've seen that mentioned anywhere) across the board in all situations, Nvidia is definitely in big trouble. That's serious Market penetration at this point anyway. Doubly so if that could be Crossfired.

It's not going to happen on 28nm. Maybe later on smaller process.

 

[ModestGamer]

It's not going to happen on 28nm. Maybe later on smaller process.

Why not ? they can if there is demand from oem's. I expect to see a real PC war between OEM's here soon. With intel and AMD providing all manner of APU type solutions.

The benefit of the AMd design to me appears to be that is is very modular and can be changed at will without huge restructuring and cost outlay.

The Home Pc wars are about to heat up. especially considering the last big upgrade cycles were with the roll out of win 7

 

[Dark Shroud]

I love all this doom and gloom based on a product that does not even exist yet. It's been how late? I thought I read 2006 somewhere. I would not get my hopes up.

Intel's Sandy Bridge does exist and does confirm it's powerful enough for Average Joe computer user. All AMD has to do is match the power of Intel's GPU core and this is the one area AMD can not only match but exceed Intel.

Now take a moment to think about Intel & AMD making mobile versions of these chips. They will shut Nvidia out of the low to mid level laptop market and possibily netbook market as well.

 

[Dark Shroud]

Would this also be a good time to mention that the new xBox 360 users and hybrid CPU GPU processor? It was made at Global Foundries with an IBM CPU & ATI GPU. They actually had to intentionally retard the chip because it was too fast. They designed a type of "front side bus" communication path between the CPU cores & GPU core. Because it would have been a vastly unfair advantage over people with previous model 360, especially during online play.