"Further improvements to IE will require enhancements to the underlying OS."

[yukichigai]

Personally I don't mind IE being incorporated into my OS, as much as I dislike Microsoft. An integrated browser does make a certain amount of sense as far as user friendliness goes. What I don't like is when that incorporated browser starts sabotaging other browsers installed on the system. I think the main drive behind the previously mentioned antitrust lawsuit was based on the observation at that time that IE actively worked to hinder the performance of other browsers installed on a Windows system. As far as IE is now I'd say it's fairly benign; I can tell it to not be the default browser and stop it from checking at startup, and it has security setting sufficient enough that I can stop other programs from using it to open websites and running potentially malicious (or annoying i.e. popups) content.

I do however forsee a day when MS could potentially come out with a browser that no longer allows you to disable certain key features or make disabling those features more annoying than leaving them on. (Case in point: disabling ActiveX for any website brings up an error window every time a page on that site loads.) At that point I think we'd see another form of public retaliation on the level of the Gov't's antitrust suit. (Provided you still believe the Gov't serves the will of the people, which is a pretty blurry thing at the moment)

Oh yes, this is so a propaganda ploy I'm not even laughing.

 

[Nothinman]

If you do not like what Microsoft is doing with the operating system and FREE web browser, switch to an iMac and shut-up. Or better yet, build you own computer and put a free operating system on it with your free web browser and then complain about what the evil Microsoft is doing with their products that you did not buy, or steal.

You may or may not be surprised to find out that the original poster and many of the others bitching about MS have already done that. I have 5 computers and only 1 has Windows on it for work and that might even be changing soon. I've been Microsoft free at home for some time now and it feels good, my computers just work and I the added bonus of having the source code to almost all my software, which does come in handy once in a while.

But most of us have to use Windows at some point, it's almost unavoidable. And as such we're allowed to complain about what we think is wrong with the software. And IE being integrated was and is a bad decision. What do you think the most problematic piece of software on Windows is from a security standpoint (besides IIS)? IE had some unchecked buffer, unvalidated input, etc every week or so for a while. I admit to not having looked recently but I can't imagine they're done yet, there's no way they did a full code audit, infact there's probably still that one web page up with a list of unfixed IE problems (sorry, don't have the URL handy, I think n0c knows it). And so MS decides to take their most problematic piece of software and make it essential and integrated with the OS, now that's smart. Lets make it so that when you browse for a files on your hard drive you have the chance of being exploited too.

I wouldn't complain if it was possible or easy to replace MSHTML with a different engine, so that I could use the Gecko engine for all the OS stuff instead of IE, but it's a PITA and the one guy that decided to try hasn't maintained his copy for a while because it's so much work. If I can find that page again I'll post the URL, but I'm not having any luck right now.

 

[drag]

the only MS products I use is a ancient win95 machine that has a IBM terminal program on it for communicating with the mainframe I have to monitor overnight.

My other job I have we have a windows 2000 file server which is a PITA to work with, and all the computers are Mac OS X and a couple older os 9 and even a 8.5...

THats more then enough MS products for me thankyou very much. My personal computer is one I 've owned since it was a 233MMX, it's current incarnation is a 1700+ AMD overclocked to 1.6 ghz. ANd I run Gentoo on it.(just installed it last week when a power outage fubar'd my SLackware installation.) Ocassionally I will install XP or windows 2000 advanced server on it to fool around with it, I like to know how to use all sorts of computers and OS's and I ain't going to snub microsoft just because I think they produce trashy OS's. I had XP on it for 6 months and maybe touched it 7 times. (all perfectly legal copies of course)

I haven't used windows in full force as a desktop OS since win98 first edition, which "borrowed" a copy from a freind's mom. That's when I figured out stealing a inferior OS when people went to the effort to provide me superior free one is the ultimite in retardation.

 

[Shamrock]

I use Windows XP and yes I can complain about IE being integrated in it. If i wanted IE in my OS, I would download it, or buy it, same with Outlook Express. I didnt ASK for IE. I didnt ASK for Outlook express, I didnt ASK for MSN Meesenger to be put in the OS, they are there whether you like it or not. I do NOT like IE, AT ALL, because when IE crashes...guess what...WINDOWS crashes, and I have had IE crash on me ever since Win95, and it's STILL buggy. A while back (I cant remember the link) IE had ON AVERAGE...74,000 bugs PER WEEK...Netscape...158 per week...BIG difference there. and IE is STILL that buggy, as I see on tech sites, TechTV, and many other sites how many bugs IE has, and you need "CRITICAL" updating. CRITICAL! not low risk, not medium risk, but CRITICAL! I hate IE, and I turn it off as much as I can, and I even uninstalled Outlook Express (physically deleted the files, not "uninstall")

and before anyone says "you dont have to buy it" well, yes I do...see, MS cornered the market and monopolized the entire industry. Just now is Linux and BSD on the rise to give MS a run for it's money. we HAVE to use MS if we play games, or use Word documents (i know about Open office, but alot dont) we HAVE to use IE to get Windows Updates (I have NEVER been able to get updates with my Mozilla browser). In fact, it has been proven that anyone who codes a webpage to suit IE, it is coded WRONGLY, and messy. It is not efficient, and the CORRECT coding of an HTML document works faster on Mozilla/Netscape and Opera. The ONLY thing that makes IE faster is Active X controls...guess what...MORE monopolization. Use another browser with a webpage that has Active X controls. It cant be displayed. And released just today, when they announced IE 6 SP1 was the last IE to be a seperate program, a person asked "why dont you support transparent PNG files?" their reply? "I cant answer that, I'm sorry." BS!

I like my Mozilla, and my Trillian. Both offer me what I want/need, without CRITICAL updates, and they are STILL hindered by IE/OE/MSNM. Without these middleware programs, the OS would run smoother, much faster, and DEFINITELY please everyone. With a download for IE you IE lovers could browse your heart's content, but as of now, we are FORCED to use programs we do not like...that folks, is Monopolization.

Sham

P.S. I work for a gaming organiztion that REQUIRES me to have Windows...why? because 48 of the 53 game servers we offer are Windows ONLY.

 

[iam29a]

Originally posted by: TheOmegaCode
A lot of us here wouldn't classify IE as free. At least not in the sense we like our browsers to be...

As for the whole automotive thing, I bitch about everything

In what sense is IE not free? How much money did you spend to get it? If it ain't money then let's bring this to head and explain what it is that you are paying for, in any sense, that you are not paying for by using Mozilla or Netscape under the same operating environment.

 

[iam29a]

Originally posted by: Shamrock
I use Windows XP and yes I can complain about IE being integrated in it. If i wanted IE in my OS, I would download it, or buy it, same with Outlook Express. I didnt ASK for IE. I didnt ASK for Outlook express, I didnt ASK for MSN Meesenger to be put in the OS, they are there whether you like it or not. I do NOT like IE, AT ALL, because when IE crashes...guess what...WINDOWS crashes, and I have had IE crash on me ever since Win95, and it's STILL buggy. A while back (I cant remember the link) IE had ON AVERAGE...74,000 bugs PER WEEK...Netscape...158 per week...BIG difference there. and IE is STILL that buggy, as I see on tech sites, TechTV, and many other sites how many bugs IE has, and you need "CRITICAL" updating. CRITICAL! not low risk, not medium risk, but CRITICAL! I hate IE, and I turn it off as much as I can, and I even uninstalled Outlook Express (physically deleted the files, not "uninstall")

You knew very well IE would be integrated into XP just as the beginnings of its integration began with 98SE. You chose the operating system. If you don't like how Microsoft conducts the evolution of the XP operating system you are free to chose another one. Again, I'd suggest Mandrake. I hear there isn't a browser being integrated in it. Sounds like a fool's choice for sticking with such a buggy enviornment, hehe.

and before anyone says "you dont have to buy it" well, yes I do...see, MS cornered the market and monopolized the entire industry. Just now is Linux and BSD on the rise to give MS a run for it's money. we HAVE to use MS if we play games, or use Word documents (i know about Open office, but alot dont) we HAVE to use IE to get Windows Updates (I have NEVER been able to get updates with my Mozilla browser). In fact, it has been proven that anyone who codes a webpage to suit IE, it is coded WRONGLY, and messy. It is not efficient, and the CORRECT coding of an HTML document works faster on Mozilla/Netscape and Opera. The ONLY thing that makes IE faster is Active X controls...guess what...MORE monopolization. Use another browser with a webpage that has Active X controls. It cant be displayed. And released just today, when they announced IE 6 SP1 was the last IE to be a seperate program, a person asked "why dont you support transparent PNG files?" their reply? "I cant answer that, I'm sorry." BS!
[q/]
You still don't have to buy it, as its given to you whether you asked for it or not. Last night out of curiosity, I uninstalled IE6 from my work's W2K operating environment. Whether this was just a visual removal or a complete removal it made no difference and the process of removal offered no resistence and created no problem (accept my idiot, evil-doing, employer has an Intranet catered for IE, but that's the employer being stupid again).

I like my Mozilla, and my Trillian. Both offer me what I want/need, without CRITICAL updates, and they are STILL hindered by IE/OE/MSNM. Without these middleware programs, the OS would run smoother, much faster, and DEFINITELY please everyone. With a download for IE you IE lovers could browse your heart's content, but as of now, we are FORCED to use programs we do not like...that folks, is Monopolization.

Funny, you chose the operating environment and then bitch about being forced. That's like chosing a good, strong beer and then complaining about being forced to get drunk. I see it as you're hooked on Microsoft's operating environment. If you would like, I'll even send you a copy of Mandrake 9.1 so you don't have to download it. That way you can break those bonds of Microsoft you seem to think you have.

Sham

P.S. I work for a gaming organiztion that REQUIRES me to have Windows...why? because 48 of the 53 game servers we offer are Windows ONLY.

Looks like your employer knows where to invest their money. Oh, you chose to accept the position where you are currently employed, too. Choices, you made them and you can live with them.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: iam29a

Originally posted by: TheOmegaCode
A lot of us here wouldn't classify IE as free. At least not in the sense we like our browsers to be...

As for the whole automotive thing, I bitch about everything

In what sense is IE not free? How much money did you spend to get it? If it ain't money then let's bring this to head and explain what it is that you are paying for, in any sense, that you are not paying for by using Mozilla or Netscape under the same operating environment.

There is free as in money, and free as in freedom. I believe he is referring to the latter.

 

[Spyro]

Funny, you chose the operating environment and then bitch about being forced.

If compatibility or some other thing is taken into account, then yes, I should think that his decisions are being unduly influenced by IEs dominance.

That's like chosing a good, strong beer and then complaining about being forced to get drunk.

Choosing? If I go to a computer at the library and it uses windows, then did I choose that? No. That was someone else's choice. IE is still the dominant browser on the market, for now, so it is necessary to have some familiarity with it in today's tech enviroment.

I see it as you're hooked on Microsoft's operating environment.

Not really, he was simply stating that he still has to use IE in sme places, which is trus but also perfectly acceptable considering that not everyone uses the same browser so it is necessary to be *flexible*.

If you would like, I'll even send you a copy of Mandrake 9.1 so you don't have to download it.

Could you send me a copy? I'm always downloading alot of stuff so my connection isn't usually 100% for isos.

That way you can break those bonds of Microsoft you seem to think you have.

MS is a monopoly. That is a fact. Therefore the products that they've gained this monopoly through maintain their dominant positions despite being inferior to their competitors. (Keep in mind that with this comment I'm refering specifically to the browser and office compnents of MS of MS.)

 

[Bushwicktrini]

You guys kill me. This is not about Microsoft this is about the fact that 95% of computer users don't know/or want to know how to use a CLI and someone had to appease those people and it just happend to be MS. They went after the market that has the most influence and that is MR and Mrs. Eighth grade education not you guys. I use MS software on all my pc and I haven't had any problems but I also serviced some pc's totally screwed up by MS software. Just remember MS doen't write code for the CS,EE's and programers of this world they write code for my mom and grandad simple code code that they don't have to try to hard to understand and it dose what it should let them check thier mail and play freecell..

 

[TheOmegaCode]

Originally posted by: iam29a
In what sense is IE not free? How much money did you spend to get it? If it ain't money then let's bring this to head and explain what it is that you are paying for, in any sense, that you are not paying for by using Mozilla or Netscape under the same operating environment.

Even if you're looking at freedom from a monetary standpoint, which I'm not, it's not free. I'm not just arguing symantics, these are the facts. If something is integrated (even partially) into the operating system, then that's one of the things you're paying for. Unless think the kernel, the tcp stack, explorer, shell32, etc are alsol free. So, what then did you pay for? The logo?

?Comment is free but facts are sacred?

 

[Shamrock]

Quote
Originally posted by: Shamrock
I use Windows XP and yes I can complain about IE being integrated in it. If i wanted IE in my OS, I would download it, or buy it, same with Outlook Express. I didnt ASK for IE. I didnt ASK for Outlook express, I didnt ASK for MSN Meesenger to be put in the OS, they are there whether you like it or not. I do NOT like IE, AT ALL, because when IE crashes...guess what...WINDOWS crashes, and I have had IE crash on me ever since Win95, and it's STILL buggy. A while back (I cant remember the link) IE had ON AVERAGE...74,000 bugs PER WEEK...Netscape...158 per week...BIG difference there. and IE is STILL that buggy, as I see on tech sites, TechTV, and many other sites how many bugs IE has, and you need "CRITICAL" updating. CRITICAL! not low risk, not medium risk, but CRITICAL! I hate IE, and I turn it off as much as I can, and I even uninstalled Outlook Express (physically deleted the files, not "uninstall")


You knew very well IE would be integrated into XP just as the beginnings of its integration began with 98SE. You chose the operating system. If you don't like how Microsoft conducts the evolution of the XP operating system you are free to chose another one. Again, I'd suggest Mandrake. I hear there isn't a browser being integrated in it. Sounds like a fool's choice for sticking with such a buggy enviornment, hehe.

Quote

and before anyone says "you dont have to buy it" well, yes I do...see, MS cornered the market and monopolized the entire industry. Just now is Linux and BSD on the rise to give MS a run for it's money. we HAVE to use MS if we play games, or use Word documents (i know about Open office, but alot dont) we HAVE to use IE to get Windows Updates (I have NEVER been able to get updates with my Mozilla browser). In fact, it has been proven that anyone who codes a webpage to suit IE, it is coded WRONGLY, and messy. It is not efficient, and the CORRECT coding of an HTML document works faster on Mozilla/Netscape and Opera. The ONLY thing that makes IE faster is Active X controls...guess what...MORE monopolization. Use another browser with a webpage that has Active X controls. It cant be displayed. And released just today, when they announced IE 6 SP1 was the last IE to be a seperate program, a person asked "why dont you support transparent PNG files?" their reply? "I cant answer that, I'm sorry." BS!
[q/]
You still don't have to buy it, as its given to you whether you asked for it or not. Last night out of curiosity, I uninstalled IE6 from my work's W2K operating environment. Whether this was just a visual removal or a complete removal it made no difference and the process of removal offered no resistence and created no problem (accept my idiot, evil-doing, employer has an Intranet catered for IE, but that's the employer being stupid again).

Quote

I like my Mozilla, and my Trillian. Both offer me what I want/need, without CRITICAL updates, and they are STILL hindered by IE/OE/MSNM. Without these middleware programs, the OS would run smoother, much faster, and DEFINITELY please everyone. With a download for IE you IE lovers could browse your heart's content, but as of now, we are FORCED to use programs we do not like...that folks, is Monopolization.


Funny, you chose the operating environment and then bitch about being forced. That's like chosing a good, strong beer and then complaining about being forced to get drunk. I see it as you're hooked on Microsoft's operating environment. If you would like, I'll even send you a copy of Mandrake 9.1 so you don't have to download it. That way you can break those bonds of Microsoft you seem to think you have.

Quote

Sham

P.S. I work for a gaming organiztion that REQUIRES me to have Windows...why? because 48 of the 53 game servers we offer are Windows ONLY.


Looks like your employer knows where to invest their money. Oh, you chose to accept the position where you are currently employed, too. Choices, you made them and you can live with them.

first of all I chose nothing. M$ monopolized the market so you HAVE to use Windows if you are employed in the gaming field. why? Because the developers have to use M$ technology in their games, why? because it's a monopolization! And they want to make it WORSE?

you did not remove IE6 from your Win2k workstation, you did a visual removal...to completely remove IE6, you must recompile the kernel, without IE integration, and also must use a different GUI (as Win2k uses IE 6 gui products such as icons, and address bar, etc) and even if you did recompile the Win2k kernel, it is about 60% slower now

as for suggesting Mandrake? I dont need your suggestions, as i have a REAL linux, Debian.

btw, Debian gives me complete control over my OS, no matter what program/app/browser I want.

Let me remind you I did not say my Organization chose WIndows for my browser and it's investing of money, I had to choose windows because 48 games wont work on Linux/Unix/Mac/BSD why is that? M$ has monopolized....why do I feel like we are playing this Parker Bros. Game...called? MONOPOLY!

seems to me like the only choice i made is my organization...not Windows at all...I was forced into it. and to eat, I must work there.

Here, let me suggest something else. I have a right to complain, nag, whine, or whatever I want, I didnt buy Windows XP Pro at all, it was given to me as a gift from a friend, legally I might add. Until you take away my 5th Amemdment rights as a US Citizen, you cant tell me WHAT I can/cant complain about.

Oh yeah, next time your car breaks down, dont go complain to your dealer, live with your broken down car, that you CHOSE to drive. Same analogy.

Have a nice day

 

[Nothinman]

M$ monopolized the market so you HAVE to use Windows if you are employed in the gaming field. why? Because the developers have to use M$ technology in their games, why? because it's a monopolization! And they want to make it WORSE?

Then how come id always releases their games for Linux and MacOS? Other game developers choose to use DirectX over OpenGL and limit themselves, Microsoft doesn't force them to.

you did not remove IE6 from your Win2k workstation, you did a visual removal...to completely remove IE6, you must recompile the kernel, without IE integration, and also must use a different GUI (as Win2k uses IE 6 gui products such as icons, and address bar, etc) and even if you did recompile the Win2k kernel, it is about 60% slower now

IE is not used in the kernel at all, that would be practically impossible because rules for kernel software is much different than rules for userland software. The UI is very reliant on IE, but that's it. And where would you get 60% slowdown?

 

[Sunner]

I don't really mind MS shipping IE with Windows, that's fine with me, and I kinda like having a browser come with the OS(As long as we're talking a desktop OS).
I just don't like IE, but that's another story, if MS shipped Mozilla or some other good browser, I'd be thrilled.

What I do mind is that I can't remove it, same thing with all the other junk that comes with Windows, I like to decide what goes on my computer and what does not.

 

[Flatline]

I am also one of the people who "built their own machines and put a free operating system on it"; most of those OSes come with a browser, but I am able to remove the browser if I want (rm -rf /usr/lib/mozilla-1.2.1 would do nicely on my home machine). My home machine is Windows free and has been for some time; I will not buy software that does not have a 'nix or *BSD port, and I donate money to support open-source development projects (such as Samba).
The only place I use Windows at all is at work when I am supporting my end-users. All of our servers here are Linux servers that I personally configured, but I was not able to get the company to move away from Windows on the desktop before we were bought out by a huge company that requires Windows 2000 as the desktop OS. That said, I am writing this post at work on my Debian workstation (which I was allowed to keep after I spoke to the head of my department).
I agree that choice is part of the issue here. I personally don't like the fact that I have no choice in whether or not IE is installed on MY machine if I have Windows installed. I say that if you do not like the way Microsoft conducts its affairs, then try to stay as far away from it as possible and use alternative products whenever possible. I am forced into a certain amount of contact with MS products here at work and it makes me want to take a long shower every time their crappy print spooler crashes on one of my users or a random blue screen appears. And as far as using Macs to get away from evil corporations, ROFLMAO!! Apple reins you in even further than Microsoft in many ways, since their operating systems must - I repeat - must! be used on Apple hardware. Therefore, I built my own machine and put Linux on it.
Another (and very important) part of the issue is that their integration of IE into Windows was strictly and explicitly forbidden by the court ruling in their antitrust case. The fact that most of the internet has not already been up-in-arms over this already just makes me shudder.