Furnace went out - fix or upgrade? (somewhat lengthy)

[Inquisition8]

Hi All,

My furnace finally went out, specifically the fuel valve. It's an old unit, likely the original from when my condo was built, so over 30 years old, 72% efficiency. The replacement cost for this part was quoted at $650, which seems a bit steep for a handsized piece, but what do I know.

Condo is 3 stories, about 1500 sq ft. The current unit heated it sufficiently, though the degree difference was sometimes annoying. That is, if I set it to 70 it would go until almost 72 and wouldn't kick back on until it dropped to 68, but this may just be the older thermostat, I don't know.

I asked for some options for new furnaces. I thought about replacing the AC (also old, but works) + furnace + thermostat for rebates, but the max rebate seems a bit low in my area, only to the tune of ~$400.

So at this point I'm debating on whether to fix the existing furnace or get a new model. I'm not particular unhappy with the current unit other than it's a bit loud, but it's in the basement and I've dealt with it for a decade. My only concern with dropping this amount to fix it is what if/when something else in it breaks.

It's a Bryant unit and it's a good brand from what I know. A local well reviewed shop (that also installed this initially and maintenanced it before) is a Bryant distributor. They quoted both Bryant and Payne units. I got the following 3 estimates:

1) $2500

Bryant 310AAV024045
45k BTU, 80% AFUE

Should't be any existing structural changes with the above, just a simple replacement.

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2) $3800 (I believe this includes the hole they'll have to add in for the PVC exhaust, which has been approved by my HOA)
40k BTU, 95.5% AFUE

Bryant 915SA30040S14

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3) $6350

PG95XAT30040 Two Stage
40k/25k BTU, 95.5% AFUE
AC: PA14NC018
ECOBEE4 thermostat

Eligible for up to $425 rebate

I don't know anything about Payne though or if this is even needed at this point.

---

I have some reservations about the fancier multi stage units. My parents have complained about these "smarter" setups as not working too well compared to a simpler setup.

I'm also not sure if it makes sense to go for a high efficiency unit. Yes I will likely live in this condo for some years to come, but I really only run my furnace with regularity for 3 months, occasionally the other 1-2 (I'm in the Midwest). Most of my gas costs is in the unavoidable ~$25/month delivery charge which is year-round due to my gas water heater.

So with that I'm wondering about how long it would take to recoup the extra ~$1300 in terms of cost savings - sounds like several years.

I'm going to ask around some more and get a couple more estimates, but wanted to see if you all had any thoughts on:

1) Better to fix or go new since the current model is quite old?
2) Normal or high efficiency?
3) Get a new thermostat?
4) What kind of bargaining could I do? I know a while back there was some mail coming out about some place "giving away" furnaces if you just pay the labor costs; didn't go for it at the time because I didn't need it and it seemed scammy.
5) Think there will be anything around Black Friday?

Thanks for reading ... this was long.

Moved from OT.
admin allisolm

 

[zinfamous]

+/- 2 degrees is standard drift for most systems, especially at that age. If it is just cutting on and off, that's how it will work. If you feel it is either too cold or too hot for what you want because of that drift, then just adjust it in either direction for what you find more tolerable.

It sounds like you don't really need it that often, so I agree that spending 100-300% with other options really doesn't give you much benefit. At 30 years though, you should probably default to a full replacement option instead of just "fixing" it. At this point, youa re going to be "fixing" something every year and it will end up costing more $$$ and more pain.

Agree that you are probably better off avoiding the "smart" appliances. Those are all excessive cost for not that much real benefit, imo. Honestly--who needs a phone app to control their temperature? I know the larger benefit is getting better grid/energy data, but what are you going to do with that data? The only thing that really matters is better efficiency and, frankly, there's only so much you can do if you are sticking with forced air anyway--it is already an extremely lossy design. Modern thermostats can definitely help (Assuming your old system used a simple mercury-based switch?), so a little better than the 2 degree drift, but there is a real shelf to efficiency if you are still blowing air through the same ductwork.

I think you should probably go with the cheaper, direct replacement because your use is relatively limited. But the 2nd option with the PVC exhaust high efficiency unit is probably a good idea, too, even though your use is more limited. Still, you will see pretty good savings for those months, and it will mean better resale for the house. The 3rd option seems extortionate, and I'm not sure why the 2nd option doesn't also qualify for rebates? In MD, the only state requirement is simply based on improving your Seer rating--not whether or not it is a "smart" system. I think the 2nd option in your quote would qualify for the same rebate here.

Also, probably need to post in H&G forums.

 

[Inquisition8]

Which would you recommend between #2 and #3, given that it's a $1300 difference between the 80 and 95%?

Also does anyone have any experience with talking down price, outside of maybe price matching competitors (I'll be getting other quotes shortly)?

If this belongs in H&G could a mod please move it. TIA

 

[Mayne]

I would install your hi effiency furnace for around 2800 bucks. Definitely get that old piece of shit replaced...it's not worth fixing..the a/c would be around 2600 bucks to install.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Given the low efficiency of your furnace and cost to replace the valve I'd go ahead and replace furnace. You'll save in the long (short?) run.

The bryant 95% sounds like a decent choice. I would not go with anything less than 90% efficient and always go with a condensing with the two pipes. Even not accounting for the efficiency rating of the furnace, two pipes is always more efficient as one is an intake. Means it's not using your indoor air (that you paid to heat) for combustion and then sucking it outside.

 

[Mayne]

if the a/c is still working...why replace it...wait until it breaks for good.

 

[WilliamM2]

The quotes seem a bit high to me. I had a Trane single stage 60K 95% furnace (XR95) and 2 ton AC installed for $5500. Difference between 80% and 95% was about $400 after rebate if I recall. No rebates on 80%.
The 2 stage and variable speed units are more expensive to repair and maintain, higher initial purchase price as well.

I'd also avoid the Payne AC, it uses a cheap wire grill cabinet with no real protection from damage, you want something a bit more robust so the lawn mower can't punch a hole in it when it throws a rock.
Examples
Payne cabinet: https://www.payne.com/en/us/products/air-conditioners/
Rheem: https://www.rheem.com/group/rheem-air-conditioners-classic-series-single-stage-ra14**w/

Did they do a manual J to determine the size of the AC and furnace? If they didn't, find another contractor. Oversized systems are very common. They will be less efficient and less comfortable than a properly sized system.

 

[Greenman]

30 year old unit is past it's expiration date. Replace it. I always recommend the highest efficiency possible because at some point we're going to run out of dead dinosaurs to burn, so we need to use as few of them as possible.

 

[local]

When I read things like this I am so glad that I work where I do. Have a free brand new 4 ton A/C system sitting in my garage waiting for some of my guys to come install it some day. The prices people pay for this stuff is insane, thank you.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah HVAC stuff seems so expensive. I guess it's because there's not a lot of people in the field so they can charge what they want. If I was to do it over again I would have done something like electrician, hvac tech or plumber, or all 3, instead of going the computer science route. All the computer type jobs are easy to outsource and automate. Becoming certified in trade fields is not easy though. Lots of red tape and hoops to jump through.

 

[herm0016]

I just had 2 units replaced and A/C added to a duplex i own. $14k.
2 ton a/c and 60k btu horizontal furnaces installed in a crawl space with proper permits. took 2-3 people 3 10 hr days to install all of it.

I also had the boiler replaced in the house we live in last month.

i would go with the 95 single stage. I think its worth the extra cost for high efficiency but not for the 2 stage.

tell them you will do the A/C as well, if they can come up with a good price for both units.

dang william, thats cheap. where do you live? labor cost here is very high. i bet they have over 3k in labor into my job.

 

[Inquisition8]

Thanks for the replies everyone. This is the estimate for the 95%, which doesn't seem too off from averages online:




I have a few questions, if you don't mind:

1) I asked about additional warranties and was told "There is a 5 year labor coverage for the furnace only for a one time cost of $150.00 and the 10 year is $288.00. These labor coverages are provided by AIG Warranties and for the Bryant product only." Is it worth it to get any additional insurance or is it a halfway-scam like the homeowner appliance insurances with deductibles?

2) Does anything about this seem off? I don't see equipment or labor warranties for the other parts; are they just not part of this system?

3) Should I get a new thermostat as well? I don't need any fancy "smart" ones, but probably should upgrade my current one which is ancient. What's a good rough cost (installed)?

4) The reason I was told I don't qualify for a rebate from my energy company is because my AC doesn't meet the SEER rating.

5) "Always go with a condensing with the two pipes. Even not accounting for the efficiency rating of the furnace, two pipes is always more efficient as one is an intake. Means it's not using your indoor air (that you paid to heat) for combustion and then sucking it outside." Does this mean they will need to add 2 PVC pipes or just the one?

6) What kind of bargaining do you think I could do here? The above estimate assumes 18 month financing. I could theoretically load it all onto a 0% CC if it would save me some.

TIA

 

[herm0016]

5. depends. i installed a water heater that has a double wall vent and uses the center as the exit and the inbetween as the inlet. i think some furnaces do this? most are 2 pvc pipes though. yes, it is better to use outside air for combustion.

3. tell them to do a new thermostat for free. a new programmable is only like 50 bucks and hooking it up should take less than 10 min, assuming they don't have to pull a new wire. I really like the Honeywell touch screen ones, but we have 5 zones on hot water. so programmable does not make sense for us.

1. i'm not big on extra warranties. if it works flawlessly for a year, then it will probably work for a good long time without issue.

 

[WilliamM2]

I just had 2 units replaced and A/C added to a duplex i own. $14k.
2 ton a/c and 60k btu horizontal furnaces installed in a crawl space with proper permits. took 2-3 people 3 10 hr days to install all of it.

I also had the boiler replaced in the house we live in last month.

i would go with the 95 single stage. I think its worth the extra cost for high efficiency but not for the 2 stage.

tell them you will do the A/C as well, if they can come up with a good price for both units.

dang william, thats cheap. where do you live? labor cost here is very high. i bet they have over 3k in labor into my job.

Mine only took one day to install. I have a full basement, easy to work in. 2 guys arrived and carried the furnace down the stairs, and hauled the old one out. Then one of them left, it took the other guy about 8 hours for the whole thing. I had the air running by 2 pm. He then ran the intake and exhaust pipes, and made sure the furnace was running properly.

 

[Inquisition8]

Thanks for the replies? Does anyone else have any feedback on these:

1) I asked about additional warranties and was told "There is a 5 year labor coverage for the furnace only for a one time cost of $150.00 and the 10 year is $288.00. These labor coverages are provided by AIG Warranties and for the Bryant product only." Is it worth it to get any additional insurance or is it a halfway-scam like the homeowner appliance insurances with deductibles?

2) Does anything about this seem off? I don't see equipment or labor warranties for the other parts; are they just not part of this system?

3) Should I get a new thermostat as well? I don't need any fancy "smart" ones, but probably should upgrade my current one which is ancient. What's a good rough cost (installed)?

4) The reason I was told I don't qualify for a rebate from my energy company is because my AC doesn't meet the SEER rating.

5) "Always go with a condensing with the two pipes. Even not accounting for the efficiency rating of the furnace, two pipes is always more efficient as one is an intake. Means it's not using your indoor air (that you paid to heat) for combustion and then sucking it outside." Does this mean they will need to add 2 PVC pipes or just the one?

6) What kind of bargaining do you think I could do here? The above estimate assumes 18 month financing. I could theoretically load it all onto a 0% CC if it would save me some.



Waiting on a couple additional estimates before pulling the trigger.

TIA

 

[NetWareHead]

The thermostat is what tells the furnace to kick on and shut off. The furnace is merely listening to orders from the tstat when it calls for heat so I'd troubleshoot here first.

You can look at your gas bills over the years and get an idea for how much you consumed. A portion of that will have to be peeled away to account for other gas usage like water heating, cooking, clothes drying etc... to arrive at the gas used strictly for home heating. This will give you a rough figure of how many BTUs needed to keep your home at a set temperature.

Basically the math is something like calculating how much gas was burned at 72% efficiency to heat the home and how much less gas would be needed when a new furnace is installed burning at whatever rating. The difference between current and projected is what you need to perhaps justify the expense of a higher efficiency new furnace. And whether you will recoup those savings over the cost of the furnace lifetime. Or if it makes sense to stray with what you have.

One other thing I would check is the air conditioning portion of this unit; the refrigerant used. There is a phaseout in effect that began in 2004 and should come into full force 2020 for R22 refrigerant. R22 is already becoming more expensive in order to meet with treaty terms but after this time, it will be very difficult to procure new R22 and you can only recover R22 from older systems to use in yours should you need it. R22 is/was pretty widely utilized and whether or not your unit uses it, and can handle an alternate refrigerant should also be a factor in your decision making.

That being said, a gas valve replacement is not unheard of on an old furnace and if $650 is the total price for a repair (all included), its not too bad of a hit.

 

[007ELmO]

I replaced my builder grade Goodman furnace and AC this summer (after about 10 years). Both kept failing the last couple of years to the point the AC was done and the house was 90.

I put in a Trane furnace (100K BTU) 95% efficiency I think, and Trane AC (3.5 tons). The cost was $7700.