Full House vote on impeachment inquiry rules to be held Thursday

[Hayabusa Rider]

So your argument is that Trump was only asking for investigations into the families of his political opponents so it’s fine?

The Ukraine Support Act (H.R. 4278) would state U.S. policy supporting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of a democratic Ukraine, and in condemning Russia's armed invasion of Ukraine and its illegal occupation of Crimea.[1] The bill would offer loan guarantees, offer various types of aid, and place sanctions on people who were "responsible for or engaged in actions that undermine democratic processes in Ukraine or that threaten its peace or territorial integrity, acts of significant corruption in Ukraine, or the commission of serious human rights abuses."[1][2]
The bill was introduced into the United States House of Representatives during the 113th United States Congress. Other bills attempting to provide support for Ukraine included the Support for the Sovereignty, Integrity, Democracy, and Economic Stability of Ukraine Act of 2014 (S. 2124; 113th Congress) and the To provide for the costs of loan guarantees for Ukraine (H.R. 4152; 113th Congress).[3][4]

This is secondary to the Obama administration policy upon which this law was based.

This is from the fact sheet on US policy

Anti-Corruption Initiatives

• In addition to the new rule-of-law-related assistance announced by the Vice President, the United States is working closely with Ukrainian authorities and others in the international community to help recover stolen assets, including through joint investigative activities as well as support for evidence collection and processing activities.
• We are also helping Ukrainian officials develop laws and regulations that will establish anti-corruption institutions within the government and enable authorities to combat corruption more effectively. Through support for expanded e-governance and procurement reform, we are also working with Ukrainian authorities to limit opportunities for corruption.
• We are also contributing to international efforts, including through the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD), to corruption and improve Ukraine’s business climate.

Hopefully, that emphasized part isn't easy to miss by people on any side of the issue. As is often the case the only motivator is money and that provided the necessary trigger to address the removal of the universally recognized party that THE UNITED STATES along with the rest of the world, as a key figure in egregious corruption.

There are the facts as they are in reality and easily verifiable.

 

[brycejones]

They did have all they need from the Mueller Report. However they didn't have enough to convince a plurality of the electorate. They now have that. This Ukraine stuff is easy for people to understand. Extortion.

obviously it isn’t easy enough for some members to understand

 

[fskimospy]

The Ukraine Support Act (H.R. 4278) would state U.S. policy supporting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of a democratic Ukraine, and in condemning Russia's armed invasion of Ukraine and its illegal occupation of Crimea.[1] The bill would offer loan guarantees, offer various types of aid, and place sanctions on people who were "responsible for or engaged in actions that undermine democratic processes in Ukraine or that threaten its peace or territorial integrity, acts of significant corruption in Ukraine, or the commission of serious human rights abuses."[1][2]
The bill was introduced into the United States House of Representatives during the 113th United States Congress. Other bills attempting to provide support for Ukraine included the Support for the Sovereignty, Integrity, Democracy, and Economic Stability of Ukraine Act of 2014 (S. 2124; 113th Congress) and the To provide for the costs of loan guarantees for Ukraine (H.R. 4152; 113th Congress).[3][4]

This is secondary to the Obama administration policy upon which this law was based.

This is from the fact sheet on US policy

Anti-Corruption Initiatives

• In addition to the new rule-of-law-related assistance announced by the Vice President, the United States is working closely with Ukrainian authorities and others in the international community to help recover stolen assets, including through joint investigative activities as well as support for evidence collection and processing activities.
• We are also helping Ukrainian officials develop laws and regulations that will establish anti-corruption institutions within the government and enable authorities to combat corruption more effectively. Through support for expanded e-governance and procurement reform, we are also working with Ukrainian authorities to limit opportunities for corruption.
• We are also contributing to international efforts, including through the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD), to corruption and improve Ukraine’s business climate.

Hopefully, that emphasized part isn't easy to miss by people on any side of the issue. As is often the case the only motivator is money and that provided the necessary trigger to address the removal of the universally recognized party that THE UNITED STATES along with the rest of the world, as a key figure in egregious corruption.

There are the facts as they are in reality and easily verifiable.

Yes, pcgeek is parroting the lies that other right wing media has tried after their other defenses collapsed, mainly that Trump asking for personal favors in exchange for aid money is the same as other US officials asking for US foreign policy objectives in exchange for aid money.

It’s transparently stupid but their goal is not to win the argument but to muddy the waters. It’s the same as if you worked for McDonalds saying it’s okay for you to sell their cheeseburgers and pocket the money yourself because McDonalds the company does the same thing.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes, pcgeek is parroting the lies that other right wing media has tried after their other defenses collapsed, mainly that Trump asking for personal favors in exchange for aid money is the same as other US officials asking for US foreign policy objectives in exchange for aid money.

It’s transparently stupid but their goal is not to win the argument but to muddy the waters. It’s the same as if you worked for McDonalds saying it’s okay for you to sell their cheeseburgers and pocket the money yourself because McDonalds the company does the same thing.

Republicans and Trump supporters have done nothing but run from the facts so we know they know that they are neck deep in it.

BTW, I just saw that Trump said to the Washington Examiner that he will not cooperate even after the vote yesterday. So we have another Constitutional crisis as this is going to the SCOTUS and so he'll wind up in worse shape than Nixon. We may see Federal Marshals carrying out the instructions of the courts and Congress, with criminal obstruction charges (which I believe will not be pardonable) and the DOJ compelled to stand down. If this comes down to a battle between branches 2 out of 3 wins.

 

[fskimospy]

Republicans and Trump supporters have done nothing but run from the facts so we know they know that they are neck deep in it.

BTW, I just saw that Trump said to the Washington Examiner that he will not cooperate even after the vote yesterday. So we have another Constitutional crisis as this is going to the SCOTUS and so he'll wind up in worse shape than Nixon. We may see Federal Marshals carrying out the instructions of the courts and Congress, with criminal obstruction charges (which I believe will not be pardonable) and the DOJ compelled to stand down. If this comes down to a battle between branches 2 out of 3 wins.

I wish I shared your optimism, haha.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I wish I shared your optimism, haha.

Out of curiosity what do you find "optimistic" or what do you see as more likely?

 

[fskimospy]

Out of curiosity what do you find "optimistic" or what do you see as more likely?

I think we will find that the two other branches are unable to control the executive.

The only reason it worked in the past was because the executive bought into the system. Trump doesn’t care about the Constitution or the system though, only himself, and in the end the other two branches have no way to compel their decisions by force.

 

[HomerJS]

Apparently so long as Trump is only doing that to get dirt on their families it’s no issue to pcgeek. I think we already know how this conversation with him will end - with basically everyone saying ‘oh for fuck’s sake’. He will continue to try and make pointless excuses (he was only demanding investigations of his opponent’s son!) until he is cornered at which point he will stubbornly refuse to admit he was wrong or change his mind and just say he’s entitled to his opinion.

Sometimes I wonder if the baby avatar is some sort of meta commentary by him on the character he plays here.

This is the issue with many righties in this forum. They want to voice opinions without defending them. If the opinions are solid a little cross examination should not result in wilting. They then blame the rest of us for silencing their opinions. Like the metaphor I've used before if they have an opinion there are 2 moons orbiting the earth they get upset when well ask them to justify it or show evidence.

 

[Jaskalas]

If anyone wants to know what Republicans think.... voters and leadership both....

Just take in a few minutes of Hannity. I would describe it as a complete diatribe of lies, seasoned by half truths. Droning on and on, so as to avoid all critical thinking.

 

[thilanliyan]

I share this opinion.

Really Dems, you don't have a candidate and a way to beat him at the ballot booth? Apparently not, hence this. This whole debacle is just weak sauce by those who know they are already defeated. A lot of America will see it that way too. He may be impeached in the house, but he won't get removed and will be acquitted in the Senate. Please go for it and I'll laugh at the ham handed foolishness that went down, netting nothing but wasted time and resulting in a two term presidency for Trump. I'm saying this and I don't like the guy, but I can see. This will be politically fatal for Democrats. The better option would have been having a candidate that could win.

It doesn't even matter if this helps or hinders Dems in the election.

Are you okay with a president committing crimes and enriching himself while in office?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think we will find that the two other branches are unable to control the executive.

The only reason it worked in the past was because the executive bought into the system. Trump doesn’t care about the Constitution or the system though, only himself, and in the end the other two branches have no way to compel their decisions by force.

That may apply to Trump himself but no one else with the possible exception of the VP. At the point where Trump defies the SCOTUS then he has doomed himself to removal as even Mitch won't go there. As Trump cannot legally compel someone to commit a crime, that is obstruction of justice or Congress, no one is going to stand in the way of a SCOTUS ordered subpoena lest they become subject to any number of criminal charges up to and including insurrection/sedition. The Sgt at Arms and the DC police may have no choice but to arrest people along with the Marshals. Their duty above all else even if they are part of the Administration, is to the Constitution. I'm going to bet that when there is a conflict they will not follow an illegal order by Trump to effectively declare himself king and wage war on the Judiciary and Congress. At this point impeachment and removal is a sure thing and yeah I know "Moscow Mitch".

Once that's done? Likely arrest, trial and conviction for countless crimes.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It doesn't even matter if this helps or hinders Dems in the election.

Are you okay with a president committing crimes and enriching himself while in office?

Logically he is as he's supporting said criminal who has himself released proof of lawlessness. There is no other conclusion and denying the facts of the law changes nothing.

 

[brycejones]

If anyone wants to know what Republicans think.... voters and leadership both....

Just take in a few minutes of Hannity. I would describe it as a complete diatribe of lies, seasoned by half truths. Droning on and on, so as to avoid all critical thinking.

Sounds just like the arguments made by several individuals in this thread.

 

[fskimospy]

That may apply to Trump himself but no one else with the possible exception of the VP. At the point where Trump defies the SCOTUS then he has doomed himself to removal as even Mitch won't go there. As Trump cannot legally compel someone to commit a crime, that is obstruction of justice or Congress, no one is going to stand in the way of a SCOTUS ordered subpoena lest they become subject to any number of criminal charges up to and including insurrection/sedition. The Sgt at Arms and the DC police may have no choice but to arrest people along with the Marshals. Their duty above all else even if they are part of the Administration, is to the Constitution. I'm going to bet that when there is a conflict they will not follow an illegal order by Trump to effectively declare himself king and wage war on the Judiciary and Congress. At this point impeachment and removal is a sure thing and yeah I know "Moscow Mitch".

Once that's done? Likely arrest, trial and conviction for countless crimes.

I mean I guess we'll see but like I said I don't share your optimism. The only significant force here that doesn't report to the executive is the Capitol Police and their jurisdiction is easily avoided. Remember, the marshals answer to Barr in the end and any entity that answers to Bill Barr can't be trusted to enforce the law. In the end I think you'll be surprised what people will put up with in that I bet if you had asked someone in 2016 if anyone would stand for the president extorting foreign leaders to criminally investigate his political opponents they would have laughed at the idea and yet here we are.

 

[dank69]

That may apply to Trump himself but no one else with the possible exception of the VP. At the point where Trump defies the SCOTUS then he has doomed himself to removal as even Mitch won't go there. As Trump cannot legally compel someone to commit a crime, that is obstruction of justice or Congress, no one is going to stand in the way of a SCOTUS ordered subpoena lest they become subject to any number of criminal charges up to and including insurrection/sedition. The Sgt at Arms and the DC police may have no choice but to arrest people along with the Marshals. Their duty above all else even if they are part of the Administration, is to the Constitution. I'm going to bet that when there is a conflict they will not follow an illegal order by Trump to effectively declare himself king and wage war on the Judiciary and Congress. At this point impeachment and removal is a sure thing and yeah I know "Moscow Mitch".

Once that's done? Likely arrest, trial and conviction for countless crimes.

What evidence do you have to support your opinion that Mitch "won't go there"?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

What evidence do you have to support your opinion that Mitch "won't go there"?

There is no such thing as evidence when projecting behaviors without precedent so I'll provide an opinion based on what we can assume is likely.

If the premise is that Trump defies the Supreme Court in matters of impeachment and their opinions on it then Mitch might decide to thumb his nose at them as he does the House. The difference is that Mitch is now shitting up his own bed, that is, Congress and feels he can get away with it.

But if he supports Trump over the Judicial Branch he has just cut his own throat as the institution he hopes to rule in all ways that matter? Then he has undercut everything that he and the Republicans have done because there is no rule of law when it wants it. The government collapses into anarchy as nothing is legitimate and the economy collapses as nothing is binding and all pretense at certainty has been erased. I wouldn't give 2 cents for their continued existence.

Mitch is a bastard, but a calculating one and where would he be when he causes his own destruction and that of his backers and party?

It's great if one is an anarchist who wants to destroy our Federal government but that's hardly in Mitch's best interest.

 

[Denly]

I have seen the idea of this inquiry was ONLY about Ukraine by people around the web, I understand Trump and co caught while hands in the jar but I hope that's not true. They need to unearth all the foreign influence and money channels, we have seen enough to suggest that many(both side) have ties with Putin, SA, Israel, China and others. How deep the rabbit holes go? Some major players need to go to jail.

 

[Greenman]

This is the issue with many righties in this forum. They want to voice opinions without defending them. If the opinions are solid a little cross examination should not result in wilting. They then blame the rest of us for silencing their opinions. Like the metaphor I've used before if they have an opinion there are 2 moons orbiting the earth they get upset when well ask them to justify it or show evidence.

You're confusing an opinion with a statement of fact. An opinion is just that, an opinion. I think the impeachment proceedings against Trump aren't going to go anywhere, that's an opinion. You can quote facts all day long, but until the senate makes the final call, all of your facts are opinions and speculation.
In the Russian collusion investigation the popular opinion was that Trump was going down. There was absolutely no doubt about his guilt. But when the report was complete, no evidence of that collusion could be found. I believe that you were stunchelly in the guilty camp on that one, and I'd guess your opinion is that he's guilty despite the investigation not finding evidence.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I have seen the idea of this inquiry was ONLY about Ukraine by people around the web, I understand Trump and co caught while hands in the jar but I hope that's not true. They need to unearth all the foreign influence and money channels, we have seen enough to suggest that many(both side) have ties with Putin, SA, Israel, China and others. How deep the rabbit holes go? Some major players need to go to jail.

There's an important distinction between Trump and every single person on the planet in that he's the only current President of the US and therefore subject to impeachment for cause, although that doesn't have to be the same as cause for criminal prosecution but it may.

As to politicians selling themselves out to foreign influence? That should be cause for immediate removal by anyone associated with the government, however, the lie of a basically honest system must be maintained for society to continue. It is a useful illusion and not damning of everyone but the corruption is an inherent part of the fabric of reality and must be minimized at any cost.

 

[dank69]

... But when the report was complete, no evidence of that collusion could be found. ...

This is a false statement of fact, and I am pretty sure you know this.

 

[Jhhnn]

You're confusing an opinion with a statement of fact. An opinion is just that, an opinion. I think the impeachment proceedings against Trump aren't going to go anywhere, that's an opinion. You can quote facts all day long, but until the senate makes the final call, all of your facts are opinions and speculation.
In the Russian collusion investigation the popular opinion was that Trump was going down. There was absolutely no doubt about his guilt. But when the report was complete, no evidence of that collusion could be found. I believe that you were stunchelly in the guilty camp on that one, and I'd guess your opinion is that he's guilty despite the investigation not finding evidence.

Insufficient evidence, not no evidence.

 

[soundforbjt]

Insufficient evidence, not no evidence.

Yeah it's hard to get evidence when those with nothing to hide (Kushner & Don Jr for example) wouldn't testify.

 

[zinfamous]

Remember when everyone said that if the Dems cave on this nonsense request by Republicans to "authorize" an inquiry, based on no legal or standard precedent, that the Republicans still wouldn't care and would simply continue to obstruct anyway based on some new invented reason, and just keep complaining that everything is secret?

Remember that? It's almost like it was only a week ago.

 

[fskimospy]

You're confusing an opinion with a statement of fact. An opinion is just that, an opinion. I think the impeachment proceedings against Trump aren't going to go anywhere, that's an opinion. You can quote facts all day long, but until the senate makes the final call, all of your facts are opinions and speculation.
In the Russian collusion investigation the popular opinion was that Trump was going down. There was absolutely no doubt about his guilt. But when the report was complete, no evidence of that collusion could be found. I believe that you were stunchelly in the guilty camp on that one, and I'd guess your opinion is that he's guilty despite the investigation not finding evidence.

I don’t know anyone who thought Trump was going down from the Russia investigation, not one person. We did think he was guilty though and the report showed we were correct on multiple counts. Simply being guilty of crimes isn’t enough to remove the president though because you need republicans to act on those crimes.

I have also seen you repeatedly state that the report did not find evidence of collusion and that is flatly false as it details extensive collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

If I’m not mistaken part of the new rules prohibit knowingly and repeatedly stating falsehoods. Correct?

 

[fskimospy]

Insufficient evidence, not no evidence.

Greenman continues to claim a report that details Trump’s eldest son, son in law, and campaign manager meeting with representatives of the Russian government for the express purpose of getting dirt on his opponent is a report that shows no evidence of collusion.

At this point he has been corrected enough times the only reasonable answer is that Greenman is purposefully lying.