[fudzilla] The real reason behind apparent lack of Mantle devs

[SlickR12345]

I'd like to see the difference between mantle hardware and non mantle hardware.

Also wonder if Nvidia is going to release some sort of similar api or if they'll use AMD's api since they are going to be making it open source.

 

[LegSWAT]

How about CUDA gaming edition?

 

[rainy]

or if they'll use AMD's api since they are going to be making it open source.

Even if Mantle is open source it doesn't matter - Nvidia hardware isn't GCN compatible (mission impossible for them).

 

[ShintaiDK]

Mantle is (still) not open source and it will (still) only work on GCN.

And there is (still) no specs and (still) no SDK before 1-2 years. So arm yourself with patience.

There has been a lot of speculation regarding AMD's new Mantle low-level API, specifically regarding if it's open or not, meaning can Nvidia & Intel add support to Mantle if they wish ? the official answer from AMD's Robert Hallock, Enthusiast Graphics Marketing Manager is a definitive NO.

Tech Fan@ic . ‏
@Thracks is MANTLE open source ?
Details



Robert Hallock ‏

@GnrlKhalid No. It is an API for the industry-standard GCN Architecture and its specific ISA, done at the request of game developers.


So not only is MANTLE AMD specific, it's also architecture specific, so it's only compatible with Graphics Core Next (GCN) based products, that's the 7000 series and up for discrete graphics, Kaveri & later for APUs.

Battlefield 4 and FrostBite 3 are the closest to deliver something today. I think, as I mentioned before, the goal would be to provide the spec and SDK publicly.

VRZ: Any timeline to Mantle’s SDK being made public?

It could be as early as sometime next year or maybe the year after.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Mantle is (still) not open source and it will (still) only work on GCN.

And there is (still) no specs and (still) no SDK before 1-2 years. So arm yourself with patience.

Which leads me to believe even further that this was basically DICE going to AMD and saying "we want to port Frostbite from console to PC and back easily and maybe we can get extra performance out of the engine because they use similar hardware now. SO lets make a new API that can do this."

I'm also going to guess that DICE doesn't want to give up this advantage to their competitors easily.

 

[Yarn]

Mantle is still in its infancy, and they obviously do have a specification and an SDK, its just not public

 

[ShintaiDK]

Mantle is still in its infancy, and they obviously do have a specification and an SDK, its just not public

I doubt they have a SDK at all, not even close to it. The specs might be relatively close to finish. The december patch for BF4 is a giveaway. In other words, only for DICE exclusivey.

 

[MeldarthX]

I doubt they have a SDK at all, not even close to it. The specs might be relatively close to finish. The december patch for BF4 is a giveaway. In other words, only for DICE exclusivey.

They have already said they will; and they have said they want mantle to be open standard when its ready. Right now its not ready...

Shin do we need to remind you of how well you predict things?

 

[ShintaiDK]

They have already said they will; and they have said they want mantle to be open standard when its ready. Right now its not ready...

So you are saying AMD lies?

 

[MeldarthX]

So you are saying AMD lies?

Nope; but this is completely different from other interviews I've read; I'll dig them up......

 

[MightyMalus]

When a game is locked to a certain FPS, its for design decisions. Nothing to do with API.
Isn't Doom 4 gonna be a 30 FPS game? Quite sure Carmack said that.

I doubt they have a SDK at all, not even close to it. The specs might be relatively close to finish. The december patch for BF4 is a giveaway. In other words, only for DICE exclusivey.

Seriously doubt that. But if true, I'm more than amazed then! Think about it, less than two months of work and testing the SDK and you have a full game and engine that took a few hundred man-years to build, just run on multiple platforms!? AMD! Genius!

Sarcasm aside, Mantle should be mostly done. And considering that this is a Console and PC API, the design and some work of it should have been years in the making already. You just don't make this appear out of nowhere. Seriously.

If you don't believe me, just look at how long it takes to make an API(which by the way, we have no clue of how big it is yet or if its only for drawing) in absolutely everything else.

Actually, you just made me wonder how long it took to make TressFX, but then again, that is a DirectCompute technology, not GCN tech.

 

[ShintaiDK]

There is nothing that points to its a console API. Its not even finished for console releases.

 

[MightyMalus]

There is nothing that points to its a console API. Its not even finished for console releases.

You must have missed the article, here, let me link you: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

You see that first slide? Read the 4th bullet.

4th -> "Leverage optimization work from next-gen game consoles to PCs"

Erm, obvious? Oh, and plural! Dear God! Must be because both have GCN based GPUs...right?


Now, you see the 3rd slide? Read the 2nd and 4th bullet.

2nd -> "Designed in collaboration with top game developers."

Top game developers usually develop for consoles. In the sense of graphics, physics and all that crazy high tech stuff we, or at least I, find cool. And by that, I don't think they mean Angry Birds or Candy Crush developers.


4th -> "Compatible with DirectX HLSL for simplified porting."

It says, "porting".



Now, If only you had some information that we could use...

 

[ShintaiDK]

I know the hyperbole is great with Mantle. But they didnt write anything as you claim.

The fact that AMD didnt specific write that consoles use it, but rather use a vague term about porting. That they can only say DICE uses Mantle. And the only performance part is 9x more draw calls(CPU only) on something we are to see in december. Plus AMD has to pay developers out their nose for something developers request. Is simply screaming its a not what the hype makes it. If Mantle was a console API today, it would be in the Xbox One and PS4 documentation. But its not.

Mantle is simply a child of DICE.

Lets recap:
No mentioning of Xbox One or PS4 at event.
No mentioning of other developers but DICE.
No mentioning, besides draw calls, on performance benefits.
No demos, no nothing. On a product that supposed to be released in 2 months and be the best thing ever.

Try look back in AMDs PR history. I am sure you can find similar events and how they turned out.

Its also pretty clear on the comments of other big developers. That they knew nothing about Mantle until after the event.

 

[NTMBK]

I know the hyperbole is great with Mantle. But they didnt write anything as you claim.

The fact that AMD didnt specific write that consoles use it, but rather use a vague term about porting. That they can only say DICE uses Mantle. And the only performance part is 9x more draw calls(CPU only) on something we are to see in december. Plus AMD has to pay developers out their nose for something developers request. Is simply screaming its a not what the hype makes it. If Mantle was a console API today, it would be in the Xbox One and PS4 documentation. But its not.

Mantle is simply a child of DICE.

Lets recap:
No mentioning of Xbox One or PS4 at event.
No mentioning of other developers but DICE.
No mentioning, besides draw calls, on performance benefits.
No demos, no nothing. On a product that supposed to be released in 2 months and be the best thing ever.

Try look back in AMDs PR history. I am sure you can find similar events and how they turned out.

What part of "Leverage optimization work from next-gen game consoles to PCs" did you miss? Which console do you think they're talking about, the Wii U? The Xi3 Piston? Or the two consoles with GCN GPUs?

 

[MightyMalus]

But they didnt write anything as you claim.

It's on...their slide?

The fact that AMD didnt specific write that consoles use it, but rather use a vague term about porting.

Erm...its on the slide?

That they can only say DICE uses Mantle.

Business?

And the only performance part is 9x more draw calls(CPU only) on something we are to see in december.

In November. Well, demos and stuff. Not the BF4 patch.

Plus AMD has to pay developers out their nose for something developers request. Is simply screaming its a not what the hype makes it.

You mean DICE? Well, that's what happens in business. Didn't they pay for the game bundles? Hmm...anyways, business. That will always happen and does happen.

If Mantle was a console API today, it would be in the Xbox One and PS4 documentation. But its not.

Oh, nice! You got the documentation! Links please? Also, reminds me of XNA.

 

[ShintaiDK]

What part of "Leverage optimization work from next-gen game consoles to PCs" did you miss? Which console do you think they're talking about, the Wii U? The Xi3 Piston? Or the two consoles with GCN GPUs?

I am pretty sure they talk about no consoles. But they hope the API will get accepted to be one in the future. As said, Mantle is nowhere to be found in the PS4/Xbox One announcements or docs.

Not to mention that DICE is making it:

 

[MightyMalus]

I am pretty sure they talk about no consoles. But they hope the API will get accepted to be one in the future. As said, Mantle is nowhere to be found in the PS4/Xbox One docs. And thats what devs work after. And Piston is not a console.

..."From next-gen game consoles"...

Where are these Docs you speak of?

And a reminder that XNA was not there at the start.



If DICE is making it, why announce that they will support it? That's Illogical. That they are "making" an API in FB3 that supports Mantle, now that, does make more sense.

But, why does it matter? It's for GCN. I don't get the "problem". Look at TressFX. AMD supported but open for all. This sounds just like it.

 

[NTMBK]

I am pretty sure they talk about no consoles.

It's right there on the slide! Like, 4 posts up from yours!

MANTLE BENEFITS
-Leverage optimization work from next-gen game consoles to PCs

 

[GaiaHunter]

Oh my...

ShintaiDk is still convinced the consoles don't have GCN gpus that are just like GCN of the PCs and that somehow coding for one is different from coding to another.

 

[ShintaiDK]

..."From next-gen game consoles"...

Where are these Docs you speak of?

And a reminder that XNA was not there at the start.

Riddle me this, since you are so sure of the Mantle hyperbole. If there is no SDK, no specs. How can it be in the console OSes that are done at this time?

 

[ShintaiDK]

It's right there on the slide! Like, 4 posts up from yours!

MANTLE BENEFITS
-Leverage optimization work from next-gen game consoles to PCs

It still doesnt say consoles use Mantle. And how could they when its not even close to be done? How do you implement something that there is not even a spec for. I assume porting from libgcm to mantle is easier than to DirectX.

If Sony and MS supproted Mantle in the consoles. I am sure AMD would let us know over and over again. But there is no reference to be found.

 

[stahlhart]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2344633

We already have a sticky thread for discussing Mantle. This thread was for discussing the cited article, which isn't occuring any longer.
-- stahlhart