FRS vs RX8 vs S2k

[JCH13]

I haven't driven any of these cars... maybe I should have when I was shopping. But I had a NA Miata and an E36 and the Mustang's handling compares pretty well to those.

I was reading on the BRZ forum that the front struts have no negative camber gain during body roll, similar to the E36. I guess they don't want you to oversteer too much. That's not the case for the Mustang. So even though it has the live axle and slightly less perfect weight distribution, it's better in other ways than the BRZ.

Wut...

Serious question: any track/autox experience to really see what those cars are like near their limits, with comparable tires?

IIRC your E36 had woefully underdamped struts too... and unless the Miata's were replaced within 30k miles, or were reputable aftermarket, they were likely shot too.

 

[Arkaign]

What I'm trying to say is, the FT86 is more of a drivers car. You will feel more confident pushing the BRZ/FRS to its limits on the track then a Mustang, thus you will accumulate better lap times. FYI, and that's what I've seen happen, first hand. It's all about confidence on the track. But if you don't track your vehicle or participate in any Motorsport activities, then I guess there is justification for a V6 Mustang.

But I think the BRZ/FRS is the ONLY FR car that costs less than 30k new that has a LSD and even weight distribution. That can't be beat now. If you want a comparable Mustang *GT with track package*, you will need to cough up more money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pD3hgleEOXA#!

Same track, same day, same pro driver, Mustang simply put down better lap time. And that's even on a track that is fairly technical and with one of the worst surface qualities for a track. It's basically like driving on gravel compared to Laguna Seca for example.

Now the BRZ felt more 'composed', but it was just plain slower. Easy to feel more composed when you're not going as fast (as well as being a light, nimble, well-balanced car of course).

 

[brainhulk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pD3hgleEOXA#!

Same track, same day, same pro driver, Mustang simply put down better lap time. And that's even on a track that is fairly technical and with one of the worst surface qualities for a track. It's basically like driving on gravel compared to Laguna Seca for example.

Now the BRZ felt more 'composed', but it was just plain slower. Easy to feel more composed when you're not going as fast (as well as being a light, nimble, well-balanced car of course).

they need to do these tests with the same tires. I believe the brz is using prius tires right?

 

[Throckmorton]

Wut...

Serious question: any track/autox experience to really see what those cars are like near their limits, with comparable tires?

IIRC your E36 had woefully underdamped struts too... and unless the Miata's were replaced within 30k miles, or were reputable aftermarket, they were likely shot too.

No, from driving them all hard on the backroads. The shocks and struts on the E36 were supposed to be slightly stiffer than OEM which is how I judge cars. I can't remember anything about the shocks on the Miata but I I think they were OK. The car was great on bad pavement.

Keep in mind I didn't say the Mustang is a sports car, just that it compares well to those cars

 

[Arkaign]

they need to do these tests with the same tires. I believe the brz is using prius tires right?

Stock BRZ tires are Primacy HP 215/45R17s. They are a fairly good match for the stock power, as the car is very light to begin with. I think improved tires would give the BRZ a slight boost, but the car already was having no problems using all of its power on that test, with only the tiniest bit of grip issues. Now add 40hp AND better tires, and it'll show the Mustang the rear bumper. But with no problems putting all of the stock power down, better tires on stock power will make very little difference. There's just no legs to it. It already carves corners and holds sweepers like a boss. It needs to hold its own in the straights and build speed, and it just can't (as shown in the OP video).

It's a great car, but even with Rcomps, it's still a 200hp/150tq car.

 

[JCH13]

they need to do these tests with the same tires. I believe the brz is using prius tires right?

Not this again.

The BRZ uses a 240 UTQG summer tire that is an OPTION on a JDM Prius as part of a "performance" package.

Yes, a 'performance package' Prius is laughable.

The BRZ/FRS OE tires are still respectable summers.

 

[Throckmorton]

I wonder if complaints about the BRZ's power deficit would go away if it had the same 200hp peak but with a bigger lower revving torquier engine, maybe a 2.5L.

 

[mafia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pD3hgleEOXA#!

Same track, same day, same pro driver, Mustang simply put down better lap time. And that's even on a track that is fairly technical and with one of the worst surface qualities for a track. It's basically like driving on gravel compared to Laguna Seca for example.

Now the BRZ felt more 'composed', but it was just plain slower. Easy to feel more composed when you're not going as fast (as well as being a light, nimble, well-balanced car of course).

The lap times were very close and it was a "pro driver". Now put your average track day driver behind the wheel of these two cars, I guarantee it he will get better lap times in the BRZ/FRS.

 

[mafia]

Stock BRZ tires are Primacy HP 215/45R17s. They are a fairly good match for the stock power, as the car is very light to begin with. I think improved tires would give the BRZ a slight boost, but the car already was having no problems using all of its power on that test, with only the tiniest bit of grip issues. Now add 40hp AND better tires, and it'll show the Mustang the rear bumper. But with no problems putting all of the stock power down, better tires on stock power will make very little difference. There's just no legs to it. It already carves corners and holds sweepers like a boss. It needs to hold its own in the straights and build speed, and it just can't (as shown in the OP video).

It's a great car, but even with Rcomps, it's still a 200hp/150tq car.

Power isn't everything. .. Unless you like drag racing.

 

[brainhulk]

Not this again.

The BRZ uses a 240 UTQG summer tire that is an OPTION on a JDM Prius as part of a "performance" package.

Yes, a 'performance package' Prius is laughable.

The BRZ/FRS OE tires are still respectable summers.

Lol ok fine 240 rating is not bad. I would still like to see this test done with both on star specs or something.

 

[brainhulk]

The lap times were very close and it was a "pro driver". Now put your average track day driver behind the wheel of these two cars, I guarantee it he will get better lap times in the BRZ/FRS.

I think using a pro driver is fine. We find out what the limits are and here pro feedback. Plus, none of us go to the track and aim to be average Joe's. We go to the track to hone our skill and aim for the pro times.

 

[railer]

The lap times were very close and it was a "pro driver". Now put your average track day driver behind the wheel of these two cars, I guarantee it he will get better lap times in the BRZ/FRS.

I would think your average driver, who can't drive that well, would be able to plant his right foot and utilyze the 300 hp of the Mustang to blow the doors off of the BRZ/FRS at most tracks.

Doesn't matter. The BRZ/FRS is marketed as a "drivers car", so I guess it's OK that it's slower than a school bus.

 

[RedArmy]

"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere"

I don't necessarily think putting an average driver in both the BRZ/FRS and the Mustang will result in the Mustang winning just because it has more power. You have to keep in mind the Mustang weights 700+lbs more than the BRZ/FRS and has a much higher CoG and drag coefficient (minor detail, but still).

 

[Throckmorton]

"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere"

I don't necessarily think putting an average driver in both the BRZ/FRS and the Mustang will result in the Mustang winning just because it has more power. You have to keep in mind the Mustang weights 700+lbs more than the BRZ/FRS and has a much higher CoG and drag coefficient (minor detail, but still).

I dunno about you but even in a car like the BRZ I'd be afraid of where the limits are at track speeds. Accelerating on the straights doesn't come with that problem. Then again I'm probably a bad driver not an average one

 

[RedArmy]

I dunno about you but even in a car like the BRZ I'd be afraid of where the limits are at track speeds. Accelerating on the straights doesn't come with that problem. Then again I'm probably a bad driver not an average one

It's pretty easy realizing the limits of the BRZ with the VSC and TC on. I will admit when everything is turned off though, you better be very sure you know what you're doing.

 

[Throckmorton]

What I'm trying to say is, the FT86 is more of a drivers car. You will feel more confident pushing the BRZ/FRS to its limits on the track then a Mustang, thus you will accumulate better lap times. FYI, and that's what I've seen happen, first hand. It's all about confidence on the track. But if you don't track your vehicle or participate in any Motorsport activities, then I guess there is justification for a V6 Mustang.

But I think the BRZ/FRS is the ONLY FR car that costs less than 30k new that has a LSD and even weight distribution. That can't be beat now. If you want a comparable Mustang *GT with track package*, you will need to cough up more money.

The V6 Mustang apparently comes with an LSD, probably a clutch pack http://forums.themustangsource.com/f726/limited-slip-differential-gears-509106/

 

[ballmode]

Fast
something like an E46 M3, have 100k+ miles on a German car, and generally look like a guido if you're not careful.

No Jersey Shore for me!