Frontline is doing Jesus -- 9 PM EST

[soulcougher73]

Why?

People are willing to die for a belief. And this sums up some of my feelings pretty well

"Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.

Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?

Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant."

 

[Atreus21]

People are willing to die for a belief. And this sums up some of my feelings pretty well

What should people be willing to sacrifice for if not something they believe in?

Beliefs are not localized to religion. Any American atheist believes freedom is worth fighting and dying for (I hope).

Or do you believe there is nothing worth fighting/dying for? Nothing greater than the self?

Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant."

That is a disturbing quote. "Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit GROWTH?" Exactly what growth occurs from decoupling oneself from very good beliefs, such as the belief that human lives are sacred and precious? On the contrary, that's very regressive.

 

[Craig234]

I hope they do a good job and keep it factual.

Factual is not a very useful standard for something in which there's so much opinion about which facts are acccurate.

 

[StageLeft]

For every Mother Teressa type there's 10 pedophile priests. Also during the Middle Ages the Catholic Church did it's best to suppress scientific discovery, a lot of times through torture and death.

I think your stat is a bit off!

Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant

Interesting. I have bolded the belief of Rufus who's saying others ought not to have them, isn't that ironic?

Everybody has beliefs and most people, religious or not, would die for certain beliefs. Most would choose themselves over their child if they had to between getting gunned down, for example.

 

[soulcougher73]

What should people be willing to sacrifice for if not something they believe in?

Beliefs are not localized to religion. Any American atheist believes freedom is worth fighting and dying for (I hope).

Or do you believe there is nothing worth fighting/dying for? Nothing greater than the self?



That is a disturbing quote. "Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit GROWTH?" Exactly what growth occurs from decoupling oneself from very good beliefs, such as the belief that human lives are sacred and precious? On the contrary, that's very regressive.

Maybe i should have used the term "blind faith" instead of belief. To be more accurate.

 

[Atreus21]

Maybe i should have used the term "blind faith" instead of belief. To be more accurate.

With the exception of the most zealous, I don't think many die in blind faith.

 

[Pens1566]

I think your stat is a bit off!

Yep, there's been waaaay more than 10 pedophile priests.

 

[Ausm]

What happens to all the people who were here before there was Christianity? Do they go to hell? Why did God take so long to save us from hell?

 

[artikk]

What should people be willing to sacrifice for if not something they believe in?

Beliefs are not localized to religion. Any American atheist believes freedom is worth fighting and dying for (I hope).

Or do you believe there is nothing worth fighting/dying for? Nothing greater than the self?



That is a disturbing quote. "Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit GROWTH?" Exactly what growth occurs from decoupling oneself from very good beliefs, such as the belief that human lives are sacred and precious? On the contrary, that's very regressive.

I guess from your point of view yes. However, the effect of believing in something disallows one to take into account any contradicting views objectively, limiting their perspectives in their life.

 

[heyheybooboo]

I hope they do a good job and keep it factual.

I think they did a good job last night.

Some of the more religious among us may not appreciate the slight characterization as a political 'rabble rouser' in the context of the times, though.



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[Doc Savage Fan]

Factual is not a very useful standard for something in which there's so much opinion about which facts are acccurate.

Really. The Bible has been exhaustively researched and found factual about the events and people of that time.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I think they did a good job last night.

Some of the more religious among us may not appreciate the slight characterization as a political 'rabble rouser' in the context of the times, though.



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The Zealots were the political rabble rousers...Jesus was the religious rabble rouser and was clearly apolitical.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Hahaha "that time" is relative hmmm?

Whats a few hundred years when it comes to historical "fact"?

Meanwhile, I say its time to bring back God's(Yaweh) wife.

 

[FaaR]

Really. The Bible has been exhaustively researched and found factual about the events and people of that time.

Factual?

Doesn't it say Abraham lived for like half a millennia or some nonsense like that? I don't think that's factual, nor would anyone else except a christian or jewish fundamentalist I'd say. I don't think the mythical story about David and Goliath is factual either, or those of the exploits of Moses, Solomon etc. There's no reason to believe any of them are. Jesus wasn't born by a virgin, Mary was a married woman for fsck's sake.

The bible's nothing more than a collection of apocryphical stories and myths sprinkled with laws, moral tales and dire warnings intended to explain what was at that time largely unexplainable things; most of them attributed to a higher power that by its very definition defies explanation. I don't think Lazarus REALLY rose from the dead, nor do I think anyone really believes that the sky was all pitch black and star-sprinkled until after the flood and "god" gave us rainbows... Ie: introduced the then unknown physical effect known as refraction. I'm pretty sure that people didn't fumble around half-blind and unable to focus just because the lenses in their eyes had no way to function! :lol:

The bible, and any number of other religions and their associated myths including Greek, Norse etc are just shock full of these completely bizarre notions that if taken at face value makes people think you're weird. So there was this giant, and he had a cow, and the cow licked salt stones until some gods took shape, and they killed the giant, and his blood became the sea and his brains became clouds and...wait, what? You gotta be kidding me! This stuff belongs in a LSD hallucination!

That's the way I look upon all religions. It doesn't matter how many people say they believe in them (while not really following the teachings anyway because that'd mean that - gosh - they'd have to make actual sacrifices and changes in their lives!), it's all just a bunch of dusty old fairy tales anyway.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Factual?

Doesn't it say Abraham lived for like half a millennia or some nonsense like that? I don't think that's factual, nor would anyone else except a christian or jewish fundamentalist I'd say. I don't think the mythical story about David and Goliath is factual either, or those of the exploits of Moses, Solomon etc. There's no reason to believe any of them are. Jesus wasn't born by a virgin, Mary was a married woman for fsck's sake.

The bible's nothing more than a collection of apocryphical stories and myths sprinkled with laws, moral tales and dire warnings intended to explain what was at that time largely unexplainable things; most of them attributed to a higher power that by its very definition defies explanation. I don't think Lazarus REALLY rose from the dead, nor do I think anyone really believes that the sky was all pitch black and star-sprinkled until after the flood and "god" gave us rainbows... Ie: introduced the then unknown physical effect known as refraction. I'm pretty sure that people didn't fumble around half-blind and unable to focus just because the lenses in their eyes had no way to function! :lol:

The bible, and any number of other religions and their associated myths including Greek, Norse etc are just shock full of these completely bizarre notions that if taken at face value makes people think you're weird. So there was this giant, and he had a cow, and the cow licked salt stones until some gods took shape, and they killed the giant, and his blood became the sea and his brains became clouds and...wait, what? You gotta be kidding me! This stuff belongs in a LSD hallucination!

That's the way I look upon all religions. It doesn't matter how many people say they believe in them (while not really following the teachings anyway because that'd mean that - gosh - they'd have to make actual sacrifices and changes in their lives!), it's all just a bunch of dusty old fairy tales anyway.

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement as I was referring to historical facts proven to be accurate. Regardless...you seem to know much more about the 'facts' than me...so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[heyheybooboo]

The Zealots were the political rabble rousers...Jesus was the religious rabble rouser and was clearly apolitical.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

HOUR ONE examines how Judaism and the Roman empire shaped Jesus' life. Jesus was an ordinary Jewish resident of his time, but new archaeological findings show that Jesus was probably not the humble village peasant often portrayed. Nazareth, where he grew up, was about four miles from the cosmopolitan urban center of Sepphoris, one of the Roman provincial cities.

While Rome defined one dimension of Jesus' world, the other was symbolized by the great Temple in Jerusalem. Jesus was born, lived, and died a Jew, and he was influenced by the diversity and tensions of Judaism at that time.

Jesus was most likely arrested and executed by Roman authorities whose principal concern was to keep peace in the empire. Rome had little tolerance for those it judged disruptive of the Pax Romana, (Roman peace) punishing them in many ways, including crucifixion.

The death of Jesus was a Roman act; there was little if any notice taken by Jewish people. Jesus was another victim of the Pax Romana.

I don't really wish to get in a back-and-forth discussion with you about this unless you watch the program.

It is worth the time you invest in it ...




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[Red Dawn]

I think your stat is a bit off!

Probably. The thing is if the Catholic Church didn't bend over backwards to cover up the Pedo Priest foul deeds there probably wouldn't be this stereotype of them.

 

[Craig234]

Really. The Bible has been exhaustively researched and found factual about the events and people of that time.

Faar gave you one more detailed response. But very little about the people in the bible becasuse it's impossible to do so.

You simply cannot verify what you lack evidence for - you can only debate its acccuracy and reach opinions.

The evidence you have is rarely more than a scroll written by someone saying something - possibly based on information verbally passed on for centuries.

 

[bdude]

Faar gave you one more detailed response. But very little about the people in the bible becasuse it's impossible to do so.

You simply cannot verify what you lack evidence for - you can only debate its acccuracy and reach opinions.

The evidence you have is rarely more than a scroll written by someone saying something - possibly based on information verbally passed on for centuries.

What made the Abrahamic religions so powerful was the fact that it was dispersed through written material. Just look at how zealously the Koran is guarded in translation. Truly the word of a god for believers.

 

[FaaR]

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement as I was referring to historical facts proven to be accurate.

Historical facts proven to be accurate, as opposed to historical facts not proven to be accurate, like a tale involving a certain boat made out of wood, built by one guy and his sons, that is claimed to be capable of housing two of EVERY land animal on earth...?

So, yeah, to summarize: historical facts proven to be accurate, are historical facts proven to be accurate. Duh. What else is new?

I mean, if the bible says the sun went up above the horizon one morning, that's a fact isn't it? But is it really something you'd make a big deal out of?

I'd be much more impressed if it could actually be proven that - for example - Jesus turned water into wine. But those bits, those that are somewhat more important in the bible when it comes to establishing Jesus as a divine, godly figure than that it also mentions certain historical figures that we know existed like Pontius Pilate and whatnot - can NOT be proven as historical facts. So that certain pieces of it have been proven historically accurate does not actually increase its credibility from any other perspective than as a (partially fictional) historical document...

Not having read any of the Harry Potter novels, if there are contemporary events described in any of them, that would also mean the Harry Potter series of books are 'historically accurate' in exactly the same vein the bible is.

Regardless...you seem to know much more about the 'facts' than me...so I'll just leave it at that.

Testy, testy...! Have some Rumsfeld poetry whydoncha. It's surprisingly calming I really must say!

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.



I don't really wish to get in a back-and-forth discussion with you about this unless you watch the program.

It is worth the time you invest in it ...




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I hope to see it. Josephus (Jewish historian for the Romans...not a Christian) wrote about Jesus at the time...so I think the statement that infers 'little if any notice taken' of him is a stretch at best.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Historical facts proven to be accurate, as opposed to historical facts not proven to be accurate, like a tale involving a certain boat made out of wood, built by one guy and his sons, that is claimed to be capable of housing two of EVERY land animal on earth...?

So, yeah, to summarize: historical facts proven to be accurate, are historical facts proven to be accurate. Duh. What else is new?

I mean, if the bible says the sun went up above the horizon one morning, that's a fact isn't it? But is it really something you'd make a big deal out of?

I'd be much more impressed if it could actually be proven that - for example - Jesus turned water into wine. But those bits, those that are somewhat more important in the bible when it comes to establishing Jesus as a divine, godly figure than that it also mentions certain historical figures that we know existed like Pontius Pilate and whatnot - can NOT be proven as historical facts. So that certain pieces of it have been proven historically accurate does not actually increase its credibility from any other perspective than as a (partially fictional) historical document...

Not having read any of the Harry Potter novels, if there are contemporary events described in any of them, that would also mean the Harry Potter series of books are 'historically accurate' in exactly the same vein the bible is.


Testy, testy...! Have some Rumsfeld poetry whydoncha. It's surprisingly calming I really must say!

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

Look...I'm not going to discuss this subject with you for two reasons:
1) You don't care what I think or might have to say
2) You apparently already know the 'facts' and have all the answers you need

 

[ericlp]

Well, as much as I like frontline, if nothing is better to watch I'll probably pass on this. I'm just not much into religion.

I believe frontline is wasting their time with this... Since no matter how you spell it out out, no matter what you say... Your argument is always invalid unless it came down the pike from some whacked out preacher. But, christains can't even keep their own stories straight so, frontline is just adding another story to the already gabillion of them out there. It's all hard to believe to begin with.

I don't believe in any religion so if anything you'd think the non believers would "WANT" to watch this. Tho, I'm still kinda pissed that christanity has screwed up Xmas trying to turn it into a religious holiday when even the good book itself says that he wasn't born during xmas, but whatever keeps the dollars flowing in... Scam? You bet!!!

 

[StageLeft]

I think what Doc is getting at is that the statements in the bible that are possible to confirm or deny based on supplemental evidence/sources stand up well.

I have heard that by historical standards the new testament is very reliable. Realize that nothing from 2000 years ago had pictures and footnotes and things. It will never be fully proven or disproven from a scientific standpoint. Hell it was 2000 years ago and most could not read. There are plenty of historical matters from just the last century for which there is great doubt and this despite literacy and film and video. Many unanswered questions about WWII, for example. And of course live still existed with the same vibrance back then as it did today but if you do use modern standards you will find nothing in history reliable in any capacity and the further back you go the more it will be irrelevant, which is why no historian would look at something from 2000 years ago with the same standards he'd judge something from 2004 as having happened or not.

I believe frontline is wasting their time with this... Since no matter how you spell it out out, no matter what you say... Your argument is always invalid unless it came down the pike from some whacked out preacher. But, christains can't even keep their own stories straight so, frontline is just adding another story to the already gabillion of them out there. It's all hard to believe to begin with.

Secularists and non-secularists all can be zealots. Every P&N thread on religion is full of plenty on both sides.

 

[sandorski]

Ghandi had the right idea, Jesus is A-OK, but those who followed him are not. There are the few, like Mother Theresa, who live up to Jesus like standards, but the vast Majority are just assholes with a Mythical Buddy.