Frontline is doing Jesus -- 9 PM EST

[Craig234]

Ghandi had the right idea, Jesus is A-OK, but those who followed him are not. There are the few, like Mother Theresa, who live up to Jesus like standards, but the vast Majority are just assholes with a Mythical Buddy.

Google "Christopher Hitchens" and "mother Theresa", but only if you are prepared to not see her the way you do now.

 

[FaaR]

Look...I'm not going to discuss this subject with you for two reasons:
1) You don't care what I think or might have to say

Well you haven't really said much so far so it wouldn't really change anything now would it. And besides, you're absolutely wrong. Hearing what other people have to say is the most interesting aspect of participating on a web discussion fora - to me.

2) You apparently already know the 'facts' and have all the answers you need

I've got my opinions, and so do you. So I'm not gonna apologise for stating them. So should you.

Well, not state my opinions of course, but your own. Meh, you know what I mean.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Well you haven't really said much so far so it wouldn't really change anything now would it. And besides, you're absolutely wrong. Hearing what other people have to say is the most interesting aspect of participating on a web discussion fora - to me.


I've got my opinions, and so do you. So I'm not gonna apologise for stating them. So should you.

Well, not state my opinions of course, but your own. Meh, you know what I mean.

...and (3) The historicity of the Bible is a fascinating subject...but there's a big difference between discussing and arguing...and frankly, I don't feel like arguing. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[shira]

For every Mother Teressa type there's 10 pedophile priests.

Prove this.

Okay.

There has been exactly ONE Mother Teresa.

The Catholic Church itself estimates that there have been 5,000 pedophile priests:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Prevalence_of_the_problem

The John Jay report indicated that some 11,000 allegations had been made against 4,392 priests in the USA. This number constituted approximately 4% of the 110,000 priests who had served during the period covered by the survey (1950-2002).[39] The report found that, over the 52-year period covered by the study, "the problem was indeed widespread and affected more than 95% of the dioceses and approximately 60% of religious communities."

In 2008, the Church asserted that the scandal was a very serious problem but, at the same time, estimated that it was "probably caused by 'no more than 1 per cent' (or 5,000) of the over 500,000 Roman Catholic priests worldwide.

And now that you have the requested proof, you're going to do exactly what?

Oh, nothing. What a surprise.

Then why did you ask for proof, if proof is meaningless to you?

 

[shira]

With the exception of the most zealous, I don't think many die in blind faith.

It's not the dying in blind faith that concerns me. It's the killing.

 

[Craig234]

nm

 

[StageLeft]

Okay.

There has been exactly ONE Mother Teresa.

The Catholic Church itself estimates that there have been 5,000 pedophile priests:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Prevalence_of_the_problem



And now that you have the requested proof, you're going to do exactly what?

Oh, nothing. What a surprise.

Then why did you ask for proof, if proof is meaningless to you?

Key word being mother theresa TYPE. I think this was used by RD in a generic altruistic sense, not literally saying you'd have to be up to mother theresa spec to be considered in this stat.

 

[shira]

Really. The Bible has been exhaustively researched and found factual about the events and people of that time.

Are you speaking of the general background presented by the new testament, or the specifics?

It's pretty well accepted that a man named Jesus existed. But beyond that, there's no virtually no evidence that new testament statements about specific acts by Jesus are "factual."

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Are you speaking of the general background presented by the new testament, or the specifics?

It's pretty well accepted that a man named Jesus existed. But beyond that, there's no virtually no evidence that new testament statements about specific acts by Jesus are "factual."

I was speaking about the historical and cultural accuracy. BTW...the existence of Jesus is fact...not something 'pretty well accepted'.

Several independent eyewitness accounts of his life and teachings is hardly 'no evidence'.

 

[shira]

Key word being mother theresa TYPE. I think this was used by RD in a generic altruistic sense, not literally saying you'd have to be up to mother theresa spec to be considered in this stat.

Well, okay. So how many "Mother Teresa types" have there been in the last 50 years? (I limit myself to that time scale because the period covered by the John Jay study is only the last few decades.)

And just what is a "Mother Teresa type?" Well, I'll use the fact that Mother Teresa was Beatified. So, we're asking how many Blesseds have there been who lived during the last 50 years.

There have been 772 Blesseds in the entire 2000-year history of the church:

http://www.gcatholic.com/saints/bxvi-blesseds5.htm

(Go to the bottom of the page - Maria Alfonsina Danil Ghattas was the 772nd person Beatifieid.)

And that number includes vast "Beatification inflation" in recent years. For example, in one fell swoop in 2007, 498 Spaniards who died during the Spanish Civil war were Beatified as martyrs. And late last year, 188 Nagasakians who died when the second A-bomb was dropped were Beatified as martyrs. That's 686 in just two years (but all those martyrs died before the John Jay study period began).

I've decided I'm going to exclude simple martyrs, and restrict the "Mother Teresa types" only to Blesseds who serve others without sexually preying on them. And there are fewer than 200 of them in the history of the church.

So, if there have been 200 non-martyr Blesseds in the 2000-year history of the church, we can expect 5 non-martyr Blesseds in the 50-year study period. That makes the ratio of pedophile priests to "Mother Teresa types" 1000 to 1.

Sorry about that.

 

[shira]

I was speaking about the historical and cultural accuracy. BTW...the existence of Jesus is fact...not something 'pretty well accepted'.

No, the existence an historical Jesus is strongly supported by the available evidence, but it's not a "fact" any more than an equally well-supported scientific theory - such a the biological theory of evolution - is "fact."

Interesting, isn't it, that those who hasten to dispute even the strongest scientific theories as "not a fact" so easily label purported events from 2000 years ago as "factual?" Are you really this swayed by bias?

Several independent eyewitness accounts of his life and teachings is hardly 'no evidence'.

To which "eyewitness accounts" are you referring? And how have these "eyewitness accounts" been validated as being legitimate?

Between climate-change-denial blogs and Jesus stories, you sure make sweeping statements about what the "facts" are, with nothing more than your beliefs to back you up.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

No, the existence an historical Jesus is strongly supported by the available evidence, but it's not a "fact" any more than an equally well-supported scientific theory - such a the biological theory of evolution - is "fact."

Interesting, isn't it, that those who hasten to dispute even the strongest scientific theories as "not a fact" so easily label purported events from 2000 years ago as "factual?" Are you really this swayed by bias?



To which "eyewitness accounts" are you referring? And how have these "eyewitness accounts" been validated as being legitimate?

Between climate-change-denial blogs and Jesus stories, you sure make sweeping statements about what the "facts" are, with nothing more than your beliefs to back you up.

Wow. First of all...if you want to talk about climate change...go to those relevant threads and answer my questions to you and make an attempt to discuss. I've given you the proof that the tree ring data was inappropriately 'manipulated' and you either don't understand the subject well enough to grasp the concepts or it's something that you prefer to believe is not true...or possibly both...I don't know. Actually I was hoping that since you have an engineering background that you would have had enough programming and math experience in school to understand the code.

In regards to to "eyewitness accounts"...read the first few books of the New Testament...do a little digging...make an honest attempt to learn. It's unbelievable how much research has been done on this subject and the amount of information available. If you really want to know the answers to your questions...you need to make an honest effort to understand and objectively weigh the evidence. Otherwise...I don't think there is anything I can say to you that would be helpful.

 

[Siddhartha]

The historical Jesus is very different from the deified Jesus Christ.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Actually he was right. History is written by the winners In this case the Christians. And im not supporting it either. Id love to see all religions disappear.

Why?

So that these irrational, often destructive, fairy-tale religions can be replaced with a superior, rational philosophy that is based on reason and objective reality?

Perhaps that way religious nuts won't be enacting laws that make assisted suicide for the terminally ill illegal and abortion, which saves tax money and reduces the amount of human suffering, illegal?

 

[Craig234]

So that these irrational, often destructive, fairy-tale religions can be replaced with a superior, rational philosophy that is based on reason and objective reality?

Perhaps that way religious nuts won't be enacting laws that make assisted suicide for the terminally ill illegal and abortion, which saves tax money and reduces the amount of human suffering, illegal?

Secular isn't necesarily 'good'. Stalinist Russia and Maoist China were secular. Nazism could easily be secular. Eugenics was secular. Oligarchy can be secular.

What if your policy turns into massive pressure for the seriously ill to be killed? That can happen in a secular system as well. You seem to assume the alternative is 'superior, rational' without recognizing the downside.

The law of unintended consequences would lile to have a chat.