Front vs Back Squat, Pullups vs. Rows

[brikis98]

I've been doing the Bill Star 5x5 program for a few months, but I now have a lower back injury and have been considering changing up my workout routine as follows:

Replace back squats with front squats: I've been told front squat is much easier on the lower back but still just as effective as the back squat. I tried it with some light weight today and it felt pretty good. How much less weight do you typically do on a front squat than a back squat? Is it painful to keep the weight on the shoulders? Is there any down side to doing front instead of back squats?

Replace Pendlay rows with Pull Ups: try as I might, I cannot do Pendlay rows without putting stress on my lower back. Keeping my body parallel to the ground and maintaining a natural arch while holding weight just stretches it out and doesn't feel comfortable. Are (weighted) pull-ups a good replacement? Is there a better substitute that works the traps, lats, biceps, forearms, etc?

Stop doing deadlifts: as much as I love deadlifts, I think they are stressing my lower back too much. I'm going to stop doing them for 1-2 weeks, doing hypers and other light exercises in their place until my back feels better.

Opinions? Advice?

 

[crt1530]

Originally posted by: brikis98 I've been doing the Bill Star 5x5 program for a few months, but I now have a lower back injury and have been considering changing up my workout routine as follows: Replace back squats with front squats: I've been told front squat is much easier on the lower back but still just as effective as the back squat. I tried it with some light weight today and it felt pretty good. How much less weight do you typically do on a front squat than a back squat?

Try starting with 70% and start working your way up. 85% is a good goal if you focus on front squats for awhile.

Is it painful to keep the weight on the shoulders?

Not really, but it can hurt your wrists at first if they aren't very flexible. Just keep doing them.

Is there any down side to doing front instead of back squats?

They are a very good movement, but you can't use as much weight and they don't engage the posterior chain as much as the back squat. I'd recommend doing extra assistance work to target the glutes and hamstrings.

Replace Pendlay rows with Pull Ups: try as I might, I cannot do Pendlay rows without putting stress on my lower back. Keeping my body parallel to the ground and maintaining a natural arch while holding weight just stretches it out and doesn't feel comfortable. Are (weighted) pull-ups a good replacement? Is there a better substitute that works the traps, lats, biceps, forearms, etc?

Pull-ups and chins are excellent exercises, but they will not hit your lower traps like a bent over row (there really is no such thing as a "Pendlay" row). You could try using pull-ups or chins as your main back exercise and then try a chest supported row as an assistance exercise. You could also see whether seated rows bother your lower back.

Stop doing deadlifts: as much as I love deadlifts, I think they are stressing my lower back too much. I'm going to stop doing them for 1-2 weeks, doing hypers and other light exercises in their place until my back feels better.

If you have a muscle strain, doing high rep (20/set) sets with low weight will help to flush blood through your muscles and they will repair themselves quicker than if you rest them completely.

 

[brikis98]

thanks for the excellent responses crt1530

Originally posted by: crt1530
Not really, but it can hurt your wrists at first if they aren't very flexible. Just keep doing them.

i've seen a version where you cross your arms over the bar - any opinion on those?

Originally posted by: crt1530
Pull-ups and chins are excellent exercises, but they will not hit your lower traps like a bent over row (there really is no such thing as a "Pendlay" row). You could try using pull-ups or chins as your main back exercise and then try a chest supported row as an assistance exercise. You could also see whether seated rows bother your lower back.

I'll try seated rows as assistance 1-2 times per week.

Originally posted by: crt1530
If you have a muscle strain, doing high rep (20/set) sets with low weight will help to flush blood through your muscles and they will repair themselves quicker than if you rest them completely.

interesting idea. along with hypers, i'll give these super-light deadlifts a shot as well.

 

[crt1530]

Clean grip is preferable to cross grip on front squats. It will help you with power cleans and overhead pressing and makes it easier to stay upright. If bothers you, stretch your wrists and triceps. Use the cross grip as a last resort.

Some more information on injury recovery:

Originally posted by: Mark Rippetoe
Here is the tried-and-true injury rehab method for muscle-belly injuries we got from Starr and that has worked for years better than any other method I've ever used. It also works well on orthopeadic injuries in general, and should be tried before anything more elaborate is used. Wait 3-4 days until the pain starts to "blur",which indicates that the immediate process of healing has stopped the bleeding and has started to repair the tissue. Then use an exercise that directly works the injury, i.e. that makes it hurt, in this case the squat. Use the empty bar and do 3 sets of 25 with perfect form, allowing yourself NO favoring the injured side. If it's ready to rehab you will know by the pain: if the pain increases during the set, it's not ready, if it stays the same or feels a little better toward the end of the set, it is ready to work.

The NEXT DAY do it again, and add a small amount of weight, like 45 x 25 x 2 , 55 x 25. Next day, 45 x 25, 55 x 25, 65 x 25. Continue adding weight every day, increasing as much as you can tolerate each workout. It will hurt, and it's supposed to hurt, but you should be able to tell the difference between rehab pain and re-injury. If you can't, you will figure it out soon enough. This method works by flushing blood through the injury while forcing the tissue to reorganize in its normal pattern of contractile architecture.

After 10 days of 25s, go up in weight and down in reps to 15s, then to 10s, and finally to fives. During this time do NO OTHER HEAVY WORK, so that your resources can focus on the injury. You should be fixed in about 2 weeks, squatting more than you hurt yourself with.

This method has the advantage of preventing scar formation in the muscle belly, since the muscle is forced to heal in the context of work and normal contraction, using the movement pattern it normally uses. The important points are 1.) perfect form with 2.) light weights that can be handled for high reps, 3.) every day for two weeks, and 4.) no other heavy work that will interfere with the system-wide processes of healing the tear.

It is also very important through the whole process of healing the injury that ice be used, during the initial phase after the injury and after the workouts. Use it 20 on/20 off, many times a day at first and then tapering off to morning, after the workout, and before bed. Ice is your best friend in a muscle belly injury, holding down inflammation and fluid accumulation ("swelling") while at the same time increasing beneficial blood flow through the injury. But DO NOT USE ICE MORE THAN 20 MINUTES AT A TIME. More than that can cause more damage than it repairs.

This may actually be the most useful post on this entire little forum of mine, and if you use this method exactly you can save yourself many weeks of lost training and long-term problems with muscle-belly scarring. Try it and see.

 

[brikis98]

alright, clean grip it is.

as for the rehab approach, it sounds pretty interesting. however, one question: what exactly is a "muscle-belly injury"?

 

[crt1530]

A "muscle-belly injury" is an injury to the actual muscle cells as opposed to an injury to the tendon or golgi tendon organ.

"Muscle belly" refers to the red part in this picture

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: crt1530
A "muscle-belly injury" is an injury to the actual muscle cells as opposed to an injury to the tendon or golgi tendon organ.

"Muscle belly" refers to the red part in this picture

so how can I tell if my back injury is a "muscle belly" injury or a tendon injury?

If you look at this image, i'm experiencing pain roughly in the area just above the butt, between the parts labeled the "Erector spinae muscle" and the "sacrum".

 

[gramboh]

Do you think your injury could be to your spinal column/discs? E.g. buldging disc? It might not be muscle in that area. I have no idea how to tell, other than going to a PT or sportsmed doctor (e.g. rather than regular doc who will say "stop weightlifting").

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: gramboh
Do you think your injury could be to your spinal column/discs? E.g. buldging disc? It might not be muscle in that area. I have no idea how to tell, other than going to a PT or sportsmed doctor (e.g. rather than regular doc who will say "stop weightlifting").

I'm obviously not a doctor, so I can't be sure, but I doubt it's the actual spine or discs. The pain is not on the spine itself but in the softer tissues ~2-3 inches away on both sides of it. Moreover, it's a mild pain that feels like some kind of muscle or tendon injury.

Of course, I could be wrong, but hopefully it's nothing that serious

 

[purbeast0]

yea since i have 2 screwed up lumbar discs I can no longer do deadlifts, bent over barbell rows, or squats

it sucks because deadlifts were probably my all time favorite exercise.

 

[gramboh]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: gramboh
Do you think your injury could be to your spinal column/discs? E.g. buldging disc? It might not be muscle in that area. I have no idea how to tell, other than going to a PT or sportsmed doctor (e.g. rather than regular doc who will say "stop weightlifting").

I'm obviously not a doctor, so I can't be sure, but I doubt it's the actual spine or discs. The pain is not on the spine itself but in the softer tissues ~2-3 inches away on both sides of it. Moreover, it's a mild pain that feels like some kind of muscle or tendon injury.

Of course, I could be wrong, but hopefully it's nothing that serious

Soundsl like muscle to me. I've had similar sounding pains (but higher up and more off centre, e.g. one side only) in my back during the last few weeks of SL 5x5, mostly from squats. The pain was minor enough (and did not become more pronounced during lifts) that I figured it has to be muscle related and it's largely gone away (lucky for me). Hope it gets better soon for you.

 

[Koing]

why not alternate front and back squats/ i always alternate my front and back squats.

few guys will ever reach 80 percent of their back squat with their front squat simply because hardly anyone will work on their front squat. for one you have to squat properly and most people DO NOT. a front squat is a lot harder to do for most people due to the flexibility it requires in the wrists, elbows and shoulder for clean grip. cross and zombie grips are funky for me but people get use to them.

you can't lean forwards like a mofo in the front squat as the bar will simply drop forwards1 you can learn forwards a lot in the back squat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxM86mayZ60

i have a bulged L4 from gymnastics and deadlifting. my deadlifts suck relative to my other lifts. train your abs and back to be strong to help protect your back.

koing

 

[brikis98]

i'm avoiding back squats because my lower back is injured and front squats are supposed to be much easier on the back... I tried them out for the first time today and it went fairly well. I did:

95x5, 135x5, 185x5, 205x5, 225x5

I found it fairly painful on my wrists, but I'm hoping they will become more flexible with time. It also was slightly painful to have that weight sitting on my shoulders - I just couldn't find a spot that was totally pain free and I have some slight red marks there now. Will this pass with time or am I not resting the weight in the right spot? Finally, in terms of difficulty, my legs felt barely challenged at all (my PR for back squat is 325x4), but keeping the weight in place was very challenging on my upper back. I went plenty deep, but I suspect I just need to improve my form - maybe I'm leaning forward and that is making it tough on the upper back?.

I also did the pull-ups instead of rows:

BWx5, 10x5, 20x5, 30x5, 40x5

For the last 4 sets, I held a dumbell between my legs (no weight belts at the gym). It was a bit awkward to hold the weight there, but it prevented me from flailing about (or I'd drop the weight) and hence enforced very strict form. Overall, the pull-ups felt great - my biceps and back felt VERY pumped at the end.

But the best part of the whole workout was my lower back: no pain whatsoever. These exercises are still giving me a solid workout and hopefully, this will let my lower back fix itself up.

edit --> in case it's not obvious, all weights above are in pounds

 

[StageLeft]

Don't be afraid to do single leg squats. You can't do as much weight, so it may be easier on your back. Functionally it's superior anyway as it forces you to be balanced and avoid imperfections that balancing on two legs can tolerate.

 

[Koing]

Originally posted by: brikis98
i'm avoiding back squats because my lower back is injured and front squats are supposed to be much easier on the back... I tried them out for the first time today and it went fairly well. I did:

95x5, 135x5, 185x5, 205x5, 225x5

I found it fairly painful on my wrists, but I'm hoping they will become more flexible with time. It also was slightly painful to have that weight sitting on my shoulders - I just couldn't find a spot that was totally pain free and I have some slight red marks there now. Will this pass with time or am I not resting the weight in the right spot? Finally, in terms of difficulty, my legs felt barely challenged at all (my PR for back squat is 325x4), but keeping the weight in place was very challenging on my upper back. I went plenty deep, but I suspect I just need to improve my form - maybe I'm leaning forward and that is making it tough on the upper back?.

I also did the pull-ups instead of rows:

BWx5, 10x5, 20x5, 30x5, 40x5

For the last 4 sets, I held a dumbell between my legs (no weight belts at the gym). It was a bit awkward to hold the weight there, but it prevented me from flailing about (or I'd drop the weight) and hence enforced very strict form. Overall, the pull-ups felt great - my biceps and back felt VERY pumped at the end.

But the best part of the whole workout was my lower back: no pain whatsoever. These exercises are still giving me a solid workout and hopefully, this will let my lower back fix itself up.

edit --> in case it's not obvious, all weights above are in pounds

your not use to front squating. front squating makes your the upper portion of your back work a lot harder. the weight is on your front so the weight will try to round your back, your upper back will have to resist this. in back squating it is not the same on your upper back.

i have the bar as close as possible to my neck, it is right across my clavicle and on top of my deltoids. the closer your the bar is to your neck the closer it is to being on top of yoru centre of gravity and the easier it will be to squat. the further along it is the more there is a lever and the heavier it will feel. also the effect of rounding your back is much worse with it being further away from you111111

you definately get use to this and you will learn to love it. they always do1 the marks will get better.

single legged squats are awesome also1

koing