From CRT to LCD: My Journey

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
Subject: Dell 1704FPT
Opponent: Dell P1130 (refurbished)


[INTRODUCTION]
I've been called a CRT Nazi before. At that stage, I though that because of LCD?s inferior technology to CRTs, that when I upgrade, it would be to the new OLEDs. There were just too many disadvantages to owning an LCD. That was about 1-2 years ago. But reality has been setting in and the technology has been enhanced a lot since then. And it seems that the market is quickly moving away from CRTs as manufacturers prefer LCD?s cheaper shipping costs. They almost don't seem like they?re worth buying anymore with their decrease in quality control, where even the praised Mitsubishi has had issues.

Before today, I was always reluctant to recommend an LCD to people because I've never tried one, or rather; I've never had time to get intimate with one. (Don't get any ideas.) I have sometimes made recommendations in the forums, but that was only because those people were looking for an LCD and nothing else. I wasn't going to change their mind. Even in these forums, gamers have gained wide appreciation from them. It seems everyday less and less people own CRTs. I had to see for myself what is all the fuss about. Is ghosting really a non-issue? Is the lack of contrast going to leave me with a hurt in my head and my pocket?

I haven't bought an LCD before because I thought they were too much money to just try out. But they are much cheaper now and I feel that I can throw away about 300 dollars just for experimentation. I bought one basically for just a review and if I don't like it, I'm probably going to sell it to someone I know for half price. I'm a very curious dude, but I'm not rich. I can only hope to have deep pockets like Rollo.

I chose Dell. Why did I choose Dell? In a poll initiated by me a few months ago, people chose Dell twice as much as the next leading manufacturer. I also read a review here at Anandtech where Dell was compared to Apple. When you are good enough to be compared to Apple quality -you are good! Plus there are the sales, I was able to get the 1704FPT for $244 down from $349, tax included and free shipping. I saved about 30% off the original price. And there is always that full satisfaction guarantee that they offer. If the display comes with any dead pixels, I could just return it for another. So the dead pixel issue is defeated leaving me feeling more secure buying it.


[OUT DA BOX]
Being that weight was a big issue between CRTs and LCDs, I thought the box seemed a bit heavy at first, for such a thin panel. Everything came nicely packaged, but Dell still doesn?t put the monitor drivers in the included CD. When I pulled the panel from the box, I was surprised to see how big it was. For 17?, I wasn?t expecting such a big screen. I had no problem setting it up and it came fully calibrated right out of the box. I think that it has to be in DVI mode for the out of the box calibration however. For some strange reason, Dell recommended I use the VGA adapter, but I don't think so. It may be for those people that are technologically challenged, but I not sure. There were NO dead pixels on this display, which was a relief. It looks nice! :)


[USAGE]
After using it to play a game and surf the Internet for a while, I was left with a few gripes. My biggest gripe has to be the viewing angles. The horizontal ones aren't that bad if you stay right in the middle, but the vertical ones are always going to show incorrect color/contrast. It doesn?t matter which angle I looked at it, the same color at the top would never look the same at the bottom. I notice this anytime there is a solid color on the screen that goes from top to bottom. At the moment, the gray in this window looks gray at the bottom, but starts to get a tint of red halfway up the screen. Granted, I'm slouching, but if I sit up straight, so that the top looks gray, now the bottom gray is too light/bright. If you look from the bottom, the top part tints red. If you look from the top, the bottom part tints blue. It?s a no-win situation. It is through gaming experience that I learned it is better to be able to see the top part as gray however. To show gray at the top, my eyes have to be level with the screen about 85% of the way up and the panel has to be almost, if not, perpendicular to the stand; barely tilted. Because of the high black point and low viewing angles, the picture didn't seem to have much contrast making it seem like glare on a low brightness CRT. And this is where I learned that having the top part faithfully display colors is better. The loss of contrast due to low viewing angles would block picture for about a centimeter from the top of the screen. This didn't happen to the bottom however. Moving the monitor away from my face helped the viewing angle dilemma a bit. Only now, instead of standing within a foot of my face, it is now standing within 2 feet.

I was left with a few gripes, but also with a few praises. The brightness isn't too bright and there is no flickering whatsoever. The monitor image quality is so crisp that I feel like I've noticed new details in games. Such as in HL2, I didn't know that the enemy's uniform was glossy. Or that Alex had blue and red highlights in the front of her hair; I thought it was all brown.

The screen door effect on this LCD is only noticeable when details start to get too small for the pixels. The anti-glare coating show blotches like tape that isn?t completely pressed onto the surface. It?s easier to notice when playing dark games. It gives the game the grainy film effect.

What is every LCD trying to excel at? Response time. An increase in response time decreases ghosting. This means clearer picture quality. This monitor shows minimal ghosting that doesn't detract from your gaming experience at all during play at 30fps. I was completely immersed during BF2. There is more noticeable ghosting at 60fps, but still doesn?t detract from game play. It's a hell of a lot better than PSP screens that many people seem to be ok with. Overall, ghosting shouldn?t be a worry when purchasing this screen.

The 1704FPT monitor scales resolutions probably just as good as other LCDs. It's blurrier compared to the native resolution. I play with non-native sometimes and I don?t think it?s that bad.


[CONCLUSION]
I've decided to keep the monitor. There are a few reasons why I don't want to go back to the CRT:

-The image quality is clean and crisp compared to that of the CRT. I just dread thinking about the blurry text at the corner of my CRT. (Update: Due to my CRT being refurbished, it displayed sub-standard image quality. The text is still blurrier in the corner of CRTs, but not to the extent that I experience with my monitor.)

-My eyes feel a bit more relaxed with absolutely no flickering. It also adds to the cleanliness of the image.

-There is less warming up time. The CRT requires warm-up time, where the settings are a little shifted and it doesn't give out the best picture quality until half-an-hour to an hour later. The LCD on the other hand doesn't spend as much time doing it, which helps you get immersed in a game quicker.

-Now that I've experienced the extra space on my desk the LCD has to offer, it's difficult to go back. I would feel cluttered.

-My room has been less hot. The CRT radiates a lot of heat and always made my room much hotter as a result.

These were the big deciders to keeping the display. All the shortcomings of the LCD seemed to be acceptable when I thought of all these really positive things the LCD has going for it.


[PROLONGED USE]
After a few months' use, the viewing angles are almost of thing of the past. With 2d applications, the viewing angle problem is akin to Trinitron technology having the wires; you forget it's there. Although in gaming, there is that constant reminder at the top of the screen where if you move your head too low with respect to the screen, the picture starts to fade out for the centimeter. That's in darker games. But that is less of a problem than it initially was.

I still have no dead pixels and ghosting still isn't a problem.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,850
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I think you'll be happy. The only CRTs that could compare to the LCDs I've used were high end Trinitrons and Diamondtrons, which I can't stand the huge bulk of.

Dell, in my experience has exceptional monitors. I've used their 2405FPW (best monitor I've ever seen in my honest opinion, including those high end CRTs), multiple 2001FPs and 2005FPWs, and now a 1704FP (which I was able to pick up for $197 a couple of weeks ago). I haven't had a single problem with any of them. The 1704 isn't quite up to their other higher end monitors, but its still a great monitor and better than most of the other LCDs I've seen.

Be sure and let us know what you think of them, both your initial impressions and after some extended use. I know that I will not buy another CRT monitor. If I hadn't found such a good deal on my TV (30" CRT HDTV) I would have gone for an LCD TV, as I find them much easier on the eyes (in eyestrain). CRTs really bother my eyes, and strangely enough, running them at high refresh rates seems to only make it worse. When playing video games on my TV I notice it fatigues my eyes a lot more than using my computer or when I played games on my monitors.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
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Aww, FCK. Although it's kind of cool to get a model straight from the factory, it really fcking sucks that they start building it after I order it. So much for the 3-5 days shipping, because it's gonna take them about 15-20 days before they even ship it to me. How much does that suck. As of right now, it's in production. It better come out pixel free.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
Originally posted by: VIAN
Aww, FCK. Although it's kind of cool to get a model straight from the factory, it really fcking sucks that they start building it after I order it. So much for the 3-5 days shipping, because it's gonna take them about 15-20 days before they even ship it to me. How much does that suck. As of right now, it's in production. It better come out pixel free.

It doesn't take 15 to 20 days usually. My 2005FPW shipped after just a few days, arriving about a week after I placed the order. They probably try to keep a stock of ready to ship merchandise like this, so I doubt they are building yours at the factory. :p

The most popular models usually have wait times, I believe there are some people here waiting on 2405 panels. :(
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,660
762
126
I have also long considered CRTs to be superior to LCDs for graphics, but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone at this point because as you said, they have major quality control issues these days. Used ones are likely to be in better working order than brand new ones, which is pathetic. I was the person who went through those bad Mitsubishi 2070s a while ago; the one I have now seems to be working okay but still has an occasional problem with randomly forgetting some of its settings, although this is fairly rare and I would rather live with it than risk getting a replacement with more serious problems.

The IQ (for games/graphics) really seems to depend on the lighting conditions you intend to use the monitor in. I think LCDs have gotten to the point where the better ones, especially those with the glossy coating, look as good as high end CRTs in the daytime, but the thing is that in the dark, CRTs look twice as good as they normally do while LCDs look like garbage because of their backlights. If you're like me and do all your gaming at night, there is only one real choice (if it weren't for the QC problems), but for many gamers a good LCD will do nicely.
 

Grimbor

Member
Apr 8, 2005
41
0
0
LCDs are about at the point, relative technology wise, where the average VGA was 15" and .33 dot pitch. CRTs reached a good point when the average screen was 19" .22 DP for around $300. LCD tech and pricing is progressing faster then CRT, partly because LCD TVs are also causing more R&D and competition.

Give it 6 months and you'll see 1600X1200 20.1' LCDs with >8ms response and 1000:1 contrast in the $300 range. At that point, LCD tech will probably be more like the point CRTs were when 17" .25 trinitrons were $400. This is the first point I'd consider LCDs a good replacement from CRTs for pure gaming.
 

wpeng

Senior member
Aug 10, 2000
368
0
0
I still say CRTs are better right now if you get past the quality control thing. I have never run across an LCD that doesn't ghost. I haven't seen the 5 ms response time ones, but I doubt they eliminate ghosting completely. If you want low response times, you won't get accurate color reproduction (dithering at 16.2 million colors is obvious) and very few LCDs show black quite right. Also, when you run up into the bigger screens, you have to use their huge native resolutions for best image quality, which demand more expensive video cards.
 

ChuckHsiao

Member
Apr 22, 2005
157
0
0
Yes Dell doesn't do any of its own manufacturing, but simply gets its stuff from other guys who put the Dell logo on the product. This doesn't mean anything bad though -- not only is this common, but Dell brands itself on its customer service, not its manufacturing capabilities.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
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It's done in production now and it's being delivered. It was rescheduled to arrive 13-15 of July instead of 24-26. Yay.
 

Bona Fide

Banned
Jun 21, 2005
1,901
0
0
Nice...not sure about your complaints with glare though...I dealt with the same glare problems on my CRT too. Actually the LCD is better about glare, imo.
 

wpeng

Senior member
Aug 10, 2000
368
0
0
Yeah, TN+film screens will always have very limited vertical viewing angle (as well as horizontal). I'm not sure what you mean by glare, though. I've never had any glare problems from LCDs unless they have the glossy coating on top. Maybe it's just because LCDs have such poor blacks.
 

merk

Senior member
May 29, 2003
471
9
91
I just picked up my first lcd monitor yesterday. A samsung syncmaster 930b. so far i'm pretty happy with it. I havent noticed anything off with the diplay...no odd colored or dead pixels. viewing angle is perfectly fine for sitting at the desk. And even if you move off way to the side you can still see everything although it gets somewhat greyed out looking. It calibrated itself. About the only complaint i have is i cant make it dark enough. I like to turn the brightness/contrast way down to avoid burning my eyeballs out. and even with it set all the way to 0, it still seems somewhat bright to me.

Its a 19 monitor. It cost $150 more then the 19 inch crt, but then again the 19 inch crt is really 18 inch viewable, where as this is 19 inch viewable. And since it comes with a 3 year warranty, it seems like a good deal to me.
 

Killrose

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 1999
6,230
8
81
A little OT here, but I can get 17" Trinitrons (17sf, 17sfII or 200sf) for $5 which are state surplus, good 19" Trinitrons are $20 :)
 

dornick

Senior member
Jan 30, 2005
751
0
0
okay, VIAN, overall how would you rate this monitor. I can currently get it off Dell for $206. Do you think it would be worth it to spend 100 more for a 2" bigger screen and better overall quality? Right now I'm just looking for the best performance/price ratio. If this monitor could be considered typical for a gaming monitor, then I'll just get it.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
16.2 mil colors. yuck.

The reason why Dell LCD comes with VGA cord installed is that not all people have videocard with DVI. Everyone knows about VGA connector and it will work on all computers. Not everyone knows about DVI or have seen one. It's to decrease the number of dumb technical support calls from people when hooking up their new LCD.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
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a bit of an update in the OP:

...because of the verticle viewing angles, when the monitor displays black, on the top and the bottom mostly, but the sides also, light is able to get through the pixels, moreso on the top and this is a bit annoying. This effects dark games in a BIG way. Splinter Cell becomes difficult to play. Because of the low black point the picture didn't seem to have much contrast and because of the viewing angles, the light was able to get through on all sides, moreso on the top and bottom making it seem like glare on a low brightness CRT, which many of you should know SUCKS. Even while playing in the dark. And this is where I learned that having the top part faithfully display colors is better. Because if it doesn't. the glare or ambient light would block picture for half an inch from the top of the screen. This didn't happen to the bottom however. It did help the viewing angles a bit to move the monitor back, so now instead of standing within a foot of my face, it is now standing within 2 feet.

The LCD has sort of this fence thing like the Shadow Mask, only that it is much less pronounced. In 3D graphics you will see it only when details start to get too small for the pixels. And even then it is much less pronounced than the Shadow Mask effect. I think it's a better defect than the other monitors. The anti-glare coating or whatever is in front that's supposed to be invisible is indeed invisible, but it does show blotches, you can tell mostly in dark games, but it isn't that noticeable and it kind of gives it a filmy effect to the game.

okay, VIAN, overall how would you rate this monitor. I can currently get it off Dell for $206. Do you think it would be worth it to spend 100 more for a 2" bigger screen and better overall quality? Right now I'm just looking for the best performance/price ratio. If this monitor could be considered typical for a gaming monitor, then I'll just get it.
Well, I think currently the 17" is the price/performance of LCDs. 19" has just too big a dot pitch and that's not cool. I wouldn't know if this is a typical monitor however. As far as rating it, there just seems to be some issues that I'm not all that comfortable with namely the viewing angles and the high black point. I'm gonna stay with it to see if it grows or something. Cause I can't believe people except this garbage, unless this LCD just sucks in that particular area. As far as ghosting, I would call it a non-issue. At least the CRT doesn't have any extraordinarily annoying issues. The image quality although not as good, is average or above in all areas in a CRT unlike an LCD which has it's highs and lows.
 

ChuckHsiao

Member
Apr 22, 2005
157
0
0
Well LCDs do fare worse than CRTs for true black because their blacks are really more like dark grays. But it should be fairly uniform. If you have an excessive amount of light coming through the sides (rather than the middle), that might be more symptomatic of a bad seal (or actually, bad backlight diffuser material/design, heh). Similarly, there really shouldn't be any blotches. Depending on what kind of blotches you have, it might actually be a panel spacer issue, which is a true defect. It's hard to say though without actually seeing the monitor.

17" is currently the most widespread size. However, 19" and up is where you'll find panel variety (i.e. IPS, MVA, etc.) while 17" are pretty much all TN panels. Those are good for response time and price, but inferior to the other types in just about every other category (including viewing angles). That's partly why 17" are so cheap compared to 19". It doesn't mean that they're bad or anything though; if you don't need the color quality and viewing angle and all that stuff, then paying for those is just wasted money.
 

Hadsus

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2003
1,135
0
76
Originally posted by: VIAN
Subject: Dell 1704FPT

[Introduction]
They [CRTs] almost don't seem like they are worth buying anymore with their decrease in quality control, where even a giant like Mitsu has had issues.

LOL!!!! This is laughable. 50% of LCDs have bad pixels or bad backlighting (see the current poll at hardforum). If CRTs have bad quality control, what do you call this?
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
6,575
1
0
Well LCDs do fare worse than CRTs for true black because their blacks are really more like dark grays. But it should be fairly uniform. If you have an excessive amount of light coming through the sides (rather than the middle), that might be more symptomatic of a bad seal (or actually, bad backlight diffuser material/design, heh). Similarly, there really shouldn't be any blotches. Depending on what kind of blotches you have, it might actually be a panel spacer issue, which is a true defect. It's hard to say though without actually seeing the monitor.
I fixed it in my OP, it's not back light leakage issues, it's because of the viewing angle, it makes the black gray and this gives the effect of glare on a low brightness CRT. As far as the blotches, it's is difficult to explain, but they exist all over the screen and I've seen it in many LCDs. But it' not that annoying anyway. it's kind cool. It's like all over the screen so it's almost uniform in a way.

LOL!!!! This is laughable. 50% of LCDs have bad pixels or bad backlighting (see the current poll at hardforum). If CRTs have bad quality control, what do you call this?
One or two pixels is much worse than the defects I've heard with CRT. And if you stick with Dell, you can return it for another until you get a bad pixel free panel. But even then you risk getting one from using it, so I don't know what the point is. The bad backlighting is terrible quality control issue however. I haven't seen the Hardforums, but I agree. But those seem to be only in high end models from what I've heard.
 
Jul 14, 2005
32
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Originally posted by: wetcat007
Arn't all of dells lcd's actually built by other manufactuars like samsung?
That's correct. Samsung part numbers are internal to the Dell's. We have a mixture of both Dells and Samsung 19" in all our edit rooms, except for video CRT's to QC. That's hundreds of LCD's used by finicky graphic artists, editors and producers. Space is a major consideration, but not at the expense of image quality.
Dell, is probably one of the best sources for quality lcd's at the moment.

 

cbehnken

Golden Member
Aug 23, 2004
1,402
0
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The 1704 is a very poor display. I have one setting next to my 2001FP and the difference is astounding. The viewing angle is atleast 3x that of the 1704.