• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Question From 4770k to Zen3 to Zen 4

Caveman

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,457
13
81
The first and last AMD-based PC I built was an Athlon 2200+ (I think anyway). It was awesome. The only reason I didn't go AMD again is that Intel caught up and had something faster than an Athlon a few years later...

SO, the tide has turned again and I'm assuming Zen 3 will be faster for flight simulation than anything Intel offers later this year at any given price point. But... My understanding is that the even more significant changes are coming to Zen 4 later in fall? of 2021. I don't want to wait that long to retire a 4770k with a 1080Ti. I'm assuming at least a 40% increase in frames if I go to a mid/high level AMD Zen 3 and a 3080Ti later this year. Sound about right?

Then, I'm assuming an upgrade a year later for at lease another 20% on top of that for Zen 4. Zen 4 is really my performance target. My understanding is that AMD just made Zen 3 backwards compatible to those already using Zen 2. Ok, so putting that all together, here's the question:

Does someone like me have an option for a "FORWARD UPGRADEABLE" MoBo that will be able to transition for Zen 3 to Zen 4, or if those who catch Zen 3 must also update their MoBO for Zen 4 once that releases in late 2021?

Thanks for the help on the long term planning.
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,796
578
126
Just get an X570 mobo that doesnt suck to upgrade from Ryzen 3000 (Zen 2) now to Ryzen 4000 (Zen 3) later this year. Or just wait. I'm on the same hardware as you and it's good enough I guess, alhtough I don't play all that much at the moment. Zen 4 will be a completely new platform and possibly DDR5, I would guess quite late in 2021 but who knows.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,623
1,109
126
Well, FS2020 is coming soon, and looks to utterly revolutionize the Flight Sim landscape completely. Assuming this is what you're going to be interested in, it's worth waiting until July (large beta of the latest build) to see two things in particular :

Performance Delta between AMD and Intel

And

Scaling across cores (eg; does it gain a lot from 4 to 6, 6 to 8, 10/12+)

And

How CPU bound is it vs GPU bound?

This will let you have a dramatically better idea of how important it will be to balance a system. Even details of how that game in particular responds to memory bandwidth, as CPU bottlenecked games can really get a boost from that, on the other hand GPU bottlenecked situations usually benefit very little to none with improved Ram performance.

I'm also a little skeptical about performance moving that far, at least in max v max type situations. I built a 3700X to replace my 8086k, and when pushing them both as far as possible for 24/7 type use, the 3700X was actually a regression in gaming, though I prefer it for general windows use (also overclocking it was useless, so I just put it back to stock and used the Ryzen memory calculator to optimize it that way. It SIPS power compared to that 8086k build).

I ended up building a 9900KS OC build, and when not GPU bound by my 2080ti (eg; testing at minimal settings to get a look at the actual gaming gap, which will only be more revealed by Nvidia's 3xxx lineup), the gap is often larger than 20%. Now I'm currently at some relatively exotic settings, moved to 5.2Ghz daily, with a 48X uncore, and 4400Mhz Ram at CL16. Identical settings in Hitman 2 (though with 3733 CL15 on the 3700X and 4400 CL16 on the 9900KS) had a gap of 121fps to 178fps, and the minimums were over twice as fast on the 9900KS to boot with 55fps vs 27fps for .1% lows.

Now that's a particularly extreme example, but it comes up similarly in Ubisoft games such as Far Cry and AC Odyssey.

HOWEVER, if you are not pairing it with a bleeding edge GPU and running 1080p or 1440p, you are not very likely to tell the difference. Even a vanilla 3600 or i5 10400f would make a better choice in a lot of situations if it makes the difference between say a 3060 and 3080 GPU (or 2060S/5600XT up to a 2080 Super). Almost every game will be GPU limited for most users before it is actually CPU limited. That's why waiting for FS2020 results will be so important, so you can take that data, check it against your target hardware and budget, and select accordingly.

Finally, display selection will also come into high relevance here. If you want to do triple 1080p surround cockpit style, or a single Ultrawide, or 60hz vs Freesync/Gysnc 75, 85, 100, 120, 144, 240hz options, all of this will also be an element that is important to note. If you're playing on a 4k 60hz non VRR display, the considerations are massively different vs say a single 2560x1440 144hz display. Both will eat GPU resources to optimally take advantage of, yet the 4k/60 option will be all the more critical to keep fed at 60fps including .1/1% lows, or you'll get really nasty tearing or frame doubling, or when using Vysnc worse input latency, all kinds of unfortunate things that make planning and getting the right hardware and settings crucial, vs VRR where you are able to let Freesync or Gysnc more elegantly absorb little dips in the frame rate, and more silky smooth experience beyond 60fps (imho, this makes panning the camera around and looking at landscapes etc much more enjoyable, but YMMV depending on the preference of the individual).

The elephant in the room is simply the data we don't have yet. For all we know, FS2020 may scale to 32 cores easily and light on GPU, or it could be the opposite and stall out at 8 Cores but gave graphics options that eat even Ampere/Titan RTX for breakfast and still chug at Ultra, lol.

Imho, wait for at least July, keep an eye on the beta and Zen3 info to emerge more clearly. Good luck! 👍
 

Caveman

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,457
13
81
Thanks so much for the wealth of info. FS2020 is definitely on the radar but I'll using DCS and IL-2 as well (probably about 1/3 of time to each of those 3 sims).

I'm definitely not planning to build a Zen 3 rig until ~Nov/early Dec. I'll give my current 4770k, 1080Ti rig to my son so we can fly together. I'm hoping a high end Zen3 with a Big Navi or 3080Ti will be about 40-50% faster in frames than my current rig (when using a Rift S). I also plan to get the new Reverb G2 when it comes out this fall (or whatever is best then).

My primary question is if I build an Zen 3 rig this fall (which I'm almost certain to do so my son and I can start flying together online), then will I be able to easily upgrade to Zen 4 CPU a year later? Or... Will I need a totall new MoBo, memory, etc...?
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,384
1,582
136
Thanks so much for the wealth of info. FS2020 is definitely on the radar but I'll using DCS and IL-2 as well (probably about 1/3 of time to each of those 3 sims).

I'm definitely not planning to build a Zen 3 rig until ~Nov/early Dec. I'll give my current 4770k, 1080Ti rig to my son so we can fly together. I'm hoping a high end Zen3 with a Big Navi or 3080Ti will be about 40-50% faster in frames than my current rig (when using a Rift S). I also plan to get the new Reverb G2 when it comes out this fall (or whatever is best then).

My primary question is if I build an Zen 3 rig this fall (which I'm almost certain to do so my son and I can start flying together online), then will I be able to easily upgrade to Zen 4 CPU a year later? Or... Will I need a totall new MoBo, memory, etc...?
I would assume unless told otherwise straight from AMD that AM4 dies with Zen 3. There maybe a chance for a split setup like a AM4 and AM5 variation of Zen 4 if they can get away with just differing on IO die usage. But considering how everything was handled with 400 series chip-set support for Zen 3 CPU's. It makes more sense to use Zen 4 and the featureset required for AM5 as a clean break and they can learn where they may have faulted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Arkaign

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,623
1,109
126
^^What TW said. Because the entire memory interface of the processor will have to change for the new standards coming down for DDR5-6400-9600+, the old DDR4 IMC design that AM4 boards are designed for wouldn't really work. There will almost certainly be a pin count increase overall as well.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,623
1,109
126
Also, IL-2 is on a really really creaky engine and drastically favors Intel CL+ (8th to 10th gen) with as high as you can get a pair of cores. Eg, a 5Ghz 8600k will beat a 64-Core Intel or AMD rig in it, and it isn't even close.

Currently the 9700K/9900KS/10700K/10900K @ 5.2ish is a fair bit more than 20% faster than the fastest Zen2 in that game when you pair with fast ram. Unless (and I hope they do) make a 8-Core single CCX Zen3, I really don't think this is going to change. It's inexcusable in many respects because it's so poor at utilizing a fast CPU. A 3950X loses to Core i3-9100 in that game. Just needs a desperate next gen engine upgrade, because even on the best possible system for it (say 5.4Ghz delid+direct die 10900K cooling with custom water + CL15 DDR4 4800 binned ram in looped cooling) it will STILL not run anywhere near what it should.

If Microsoft does as good a job as I'm thinking they might with FS2020, and it can take more than 8 Cores usefully, I think it's very possible that a 3950X could dominate or at least match Intel's best in that title. Just have to wait and see.

Games up to this point often are incredibly sensitive to latency, and the CCX design of Zen, which makes for easy tons of cores and cache and brutally fast and efficient rendering and multitasking performance, just doesn't translate to gaming all that well by contrast. Compare a 3900X and 3950X to any Intel s115x/1200 CPU, and it will win every single benchmark, often by enormous margins, except gaming.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY