Frence pension problem is real, and it's going to be a US issue soon.

[blackangst1]

As far as I can tell its primary critique is that people are living longer than they used to and so it's putting a strain on welfare programs. Of course, welfare programs are one of the big reasons we are living longer than we used to so it's kind of a great problem to have.

It also make the counter-argument a bit odd: 'welfare programs are making people live so long that we should get rid of them so people die sooner and we can save on the budget' is probably not an electoral winner.

To this point, the answer is education (which Ive commented on in another recent thread) not more welfare.. We arent taught in middle and high school the value of money, basic money information, and basic information about investing or compound interest. Per this report, only 4 in 10 start saving for retirement in their 20's. So many think they dont make enough to save, which is wrong. Even someone on welfare can save $1/week. Its not the amount thats important, its the habit. That, and compound interest, is what makes retirement grow, As Warren Buffet has said, there are two ways to make alot of money. Alot of money and a little time, or a little money and alot of time. Most people fall into the latter.

Anyway.

 

[fskimospy]

How its paid for. I would be MUCH more supportive if the drive was towards things like military spending being significantly reduced than taking other people's money. See my sig from Churchill.

I would certainly prefer to pay for social programs by reducing wasteful spending like our military. Let's cut it to say, 25% of what it currently is. Military spending by the US is arguably as high as $1 trillion per year, depending on what you count as military spending as it's definitely more than just DoD. A 75% reduction would mean about $7.5 trillion in welfare spending over the next 10 years without any tax increases.

That being said, I think the economic evidence shows pretty strongly that Churchill was wrong about that as a high Gini coefficient is correlated with worse GDP growth.

 

[blackangst1]

You know, if more conservatives put forth policies that were actually in any way, shape, or form, designed to help out the average person (or even a majority of persons), you'd likely see less 'extremism' from the side of progressives. Conservatives have become a party of 'no', and as such you see progressives pulling harder.

Wanting to reduce overall cost of medical care in our country (as an example) is not a social policy that will slide us into a welfare state. It's just logical, and good business. Oh, and I hate to break it to you, but if you think the Green New Deal is lunacy, you are going to be in for a wake-up call when the weight of climate change starts pressing on us.

In 8-10 years, right?

 

[fskimospy]

To this point, the answer is education (which Ive commented on in another recent thread) not more welfare.. We arent taught in middle and high school the value of money, basic money information, and basic information about investing or compound interest. Per this report, only 4 in 10 start saving for retirement in their 20's. So many think they dont make enough to save, which is wrong. Even someone on welfare can save $1/week. Its not the amount thats important, its the habit. That, and compound interest, is what makes retirement grow, As Warren Buffet has said, there are two ways to make alot of money. Alot of money and a little time, or a little money and alot of time. Most people fall into the latter.

Anyway.

Sadly there is little evidence that financial education leads to meaningful changes in saving behavior. Education isn't the answer - more likely the answer is opt-out enrollment in savings programs, etc., or, you know, a better social safety net.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259763070_Financial_Literacy_Financial_Education_and_Downstream_Financial_Behaviors

We conduct a meta-analysis of the relationship of financial literacy and of financial education to financial behaviors in 168 papers covering 201 prior studies. We find that interventions to improve financial literacy explain only 0.1% of the variance in financial behaviors studied, with weaker effects in low-income samples. Like other education, financial education decays over time; even large interventions with many hours of instruction have negligible effects on behavior 20 months or more from the time of intervention.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

In 8-10 years, right?

Probably, if it doesn't hit us that quickly (would require some rather severe and unexpected exponential effects) we're going to start ramping up to attempt to mitigate the brunt of it. I personally don't think we'll collectively have our shit together enough to mitigate it properly.

 

[sandorski]

You can learn all the Financial secrets and equations, but if you don't have sufficient $ you won't Save shit.

 

[Jhhnn]

Easy. Capitalism.

That's remarkably obtuse. You linked a chart showing how Capitalism has led to the current dismal prospects for people approaching retirement, Then claim Capitalism is the answer. Doing the same thing over while expecting different results is one definition of insanity.

Oh, and thanks for pulling numbers out of your ass. So helpful.

 

[SMOGZINN]

To this point, the answer is education (which Ive commented on in another recent thread) not more welfare.. We arent taught in middle and high school the value of money, basic money information, and basic information about investing or compound interest. Per this report, only 4 in 10 start saving for retirement in their 20's. So many think they dont make enough to save, which is wrong. Even someone on welfare can save $1/week. Its not the amount thats important, its the habit. That, and compound interest, is what makes retirement grow, As Warren Buffet has said, there are two ways to make alot of money. Alot of money and a little time, or a little money and alot of time. Most people fall into the latter.

Anyway.

The amount you save is super important. A $1 a week saving program is not going to get you anywhere, because a single $10 emergency like, 'I lost a sock in the dryer' wipes out a quarter of a year of savings. That is the real problem, not that people don't save at all, but that they are not able to save enough for it to compound. Everyone I know saves some, many just don't save enough to make it over the bumps in the road.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

That's remarkably obtuse. You linked a chart showing how Capitalism has led to the current dismal prospects for people approaching retirement, Then claim Capitalism is the answer. Doing the same thing over while expecting different results is one definition of insanity.

Oh, and thanks for pulling numbers out of your ass. So helpful.

'Wow, playing with fire managed to set our house on fire. You know what will fix this? More fire!'

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The amount you save is super important. A $1 a week saving program is not going to get you anywhere, because a single $10 emergency like, 'I lost a sock in the dryer' wipes out a quarter of a year of savings. That is the real problem, not that people don't save at all, but that they are not able to save enough for it to compound. Everyone I know saves some, many just don't save enough to make it over the bumps in the road.

Yup. Shit's too expensive for tiny amounts of savings to even matter.

A few months ago my truck was acting weird when turning. I'm an IT guy, not super-car-guy (though I'm handy with a wrench). Took it in, 4 grand later, its fixed. Four fucking thousand dollars so that I can continue to get to work and home. Remind me again where I'm supposed to be saving my nickels?

 

[blackangst1]

You can learn all the Financial secrets and equations, but if you don't have sufficient $ you won't Save shit.

Apparently you didnt read my entire post.

 

[blackangst1]

Sadly there is little evidence that financial education leads to meaningful changes in saving behavior. Education isn't the answer - more likely the answer is opt-out enrollment in savings programs, etc., or, you know, a better social safety net.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259763070_Financial_Literacy_Financial_Education_and_Downstream_Financial_Behaviors

I disagree.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Yup. Shit's too expensive for tiny amounts of savings to even matter.

A few months ago my truck was acting weird when turning. I'm an IT guy, not super-car-guy (though I'm handy with a wrench). Took it in, 4 grand later, its fixed. Four fucking thousand dollars so that I can continue to get to work and home. Remind me again where I'm supposed to be saving my nickels?

If you just stop drinking Starbucks coffee you would have been able to save enough to pay for that in just 5 years!

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

If you just stop drinking Starbucks coffee you would have been able to save enough to pay for that in just 5 years!

Jokes on you, I drink boring old drip brew I make at home before work.

I guess I could cut back on heat and wear more layers. That'd save me a few grand over as many years.

 

[blackangst1]

Yup. Shit's too expensive for tiny amounts of savings to even matter.

A few months ago my truck was acting weird when turning. I'm an IT guy, not super-car-guy (though I'm handy with a wrench). Took it in, 4 grand later, its fixed. Four fucking thousand dollars so that I can continue to get to work and home. Remind me again where I'm supposed to be saving my nickels?

First step is get in the habit of saving. Second, there no minimums for a Roth IRA. Thirn, learn the power of compund interest. For example, if you invested $1/mo for 40 years based on a reasonable interest rate, the end result would be over $11,000. Thats impactful.

 

[SMOGZINN]

First step is get in the habit of saving. Second, there no minimums for a Roth IRA. Thirn, learn the power of compund interest. For example, if you invested $1/mo for 40 years based on a reasonable interest rate, the end result would be over $11,000. Thats impactful.

WOW! If I lived another 20 years, as I would expect from current life expectancies I would have nearly $550 a year to live on! Capitalism really does work!

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

First step is get in the habit of saving. Second, there no minimums for a Roth IRA. Thirn, learn the power of compund interest. For example, if you invested $1/mo for 40 years based on a reasonable interest rate, the end result would be over $11,000. Thats impactful.

I'm well aware of what compound interest is, I'm also aware of how super-great and cool savings plans can be. Still doesn't help when you're under debt and have to stretch ~$50 for a week or few for your paycheck to come in.

 

[blackangst1]

The amount you save is super important. A $1 a week saving program is not going to get you anywhere, because a single $10 emergency like, 'I lost a sock in the dryer' wipes out a quarter of a year of savings. That is the real problem, not that people don't save at all, but that they are not able to save enough for it to compound. Everyone I know saves some, many just don't save enough to make it over the bumps in the road.

You missed the point. Its the habit of saving. If youre in a saving mindset, youre less likely to waste money, and more likely to put it away when you have extra.for example, Ive had the same take home pay for the last about 15 years although Ive gotten over a dozen raises, bonuses, and changed jobs for better pay. Why? I put the extra into savings and 401k. When I started in my 401k in my early 30's I started with 1%. Im not up to about 23% and have 6 months salary in savings.

I didnt suggest that saving $1 mo would solve financial issues.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I disagree.

So, your argument is that the majority of people just don't know that saving money is a good idea because they were never told so?
That is the only way the problem would be education and not a economy that squeezes every penny out of as many people as it can.

 

[blackangst1]

You know what? Most of you guys dont like me for some reason, and think I view the world through Trump clouded glasses. I cant have an adult, reasonable conversation about anything. Most of you are either unwilling or unable to see an alternate viewpoint. All you guys offer is anecdotal excuses. So Ill not pollute this thread any more. Carry on with the important stuff.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yup. Shit's too expensive for tiny amounts of savings to even matter.

A few months ago my truck was acting weird when turning. I'm an IT guy, not super-car-guy (though I'm handy with a wrench). Took it in, 4 grand later, its fixed. Four fucking thousand dollars so that I can continue to get to work and home. Remind me again where I'm supposed to be saving my nickels?

Put a camper on it & live in the parking lot. I worked with a few guys over the years who did just that, some for years. They showered in the shop, got their mail at the front desk, leached the free wifi & watched broadcast TV. It's a dream life, I'm tellin' ya.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You know what? Most of you guys dont like me for some reason, and think I view the world through Trump clouded glasses. I cant have an adult, reasonable conversation about anything. Most of you are either unwilling or unable to see an alternate viewpoint. All you guys offer is anecdotal excuses. So Ill not pollute this thread any more. Carry on with the important stuff.

It's called a debate. If you were to be approaching with rational arguments backed up by data (not just 'it worked for me so it should work for you'), you'd get less arguments. Hell, I've effectively shut down 2A discussions on this board of all places. You just need to not suck at communicating.

 

[blackangst1]

It's called a debate. If you were to be approaching with rational arguments backed up by data (not just 'it worked for me so it should work for you'), you'd get less arguments. Hell, I've effectively shut down 2A discussions on this board of all places. You just need to not suck at communicating.

I often supply links to support my arguments. Not only that, Ive conceded my own points and stated when Ive been wrong more than anyone on this board. The issue is although Im socially middle ground, Im financially conservative. And this board has no place for conservatism in any form. Look around. All kinds of posters pick party over country (the call to vote straight Democrat for example and the name calling of the GOP party for another).Most posters are as politically blind as theyre claim to the blindness of Trump supports. I know, I know, its different. Theyre right.

/wave

 

[SMOGZINN]

You know what? Most of you guys dont like me for some reason, and think I view the world through Trump clouded glasses. I cant have an adult, reasonable conversation about anything. Most of you are either unwilling or unable to see an alternate viewpoint. All you guys offer is anecdotal excuses. So Ill not pollute this thread any more. Carry on with the important stuff.

It is not your politics that is the problem here, it is your overly simplistic arguments. 'Save more money' is not a solution if you don't have the money to save. 'Save as much as you can' is a good sentiment, but it honestly doesn't do much if that amount does not get compounded because you have to dip into it every few months, or if the amount you saved was so
small that a single event wiped it out.

When we see a systemic problem the solutions can not be individual, because individual solutions only work for individuals, and since they are not already working then something is preventing them from being implemented on a systemic scale. That is what we have to address. The problem is not that people are not saving, but why they are not saving. Practically everyone knows that the SHOULD save, yet so few do. Why is that? Figure that out and we might make progress on this problem.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Put a camper on it & live in the parking lot. I worked with a few guys over the years who did just that, some for years. They showered in the shop, got their mail at the front desk, leached the free wifi & watched broadcast TV. It's a dream life, I'm tellin' ya.

Ironically I worked with a guy that almost did it when we were in the mil, told him he'd get in trouble for trying it and he decided against it.

My GF would not be amused if I moved us out of her family's home and did that anyhow. But hey I could save a bunch of money then I'd have numbers in an account somewhere that I could brag about when society collapses! Hurrah!