Frence pension problem is real, and it's going to be a US issue soon.

[[DHT]Osiris]

I often supply links to support my arguments. Not only that, Ive conceded my own points and stated when Ive been wrong more than anyone on this board. The issue is although Im socially middle ground, Im financially conservative. And this board has no place for conservatism in any form. Look around. All kinds of posters pick party over country (the call to vote straight Democrat for example and the name calling of the GOP party for another).Most posters are as politically blind as theyre claim to the blindness of Trump supports. I know, I know, its different. Theyre right.

/wave

And you're ignoring systemic problems in our society and handwaving it all as personal responsibility issues. This all stretches back to any of your arguments regarding social programs, sometimes people should benefit from the society they participate in, and that's okay. Sometimes people just simply cannot save half their yearly wages like you do. You need to acknowledge that not everyone is in the same situation as you, and that's okay. At some point, you'll need help from others too, and that's also okay.

Most posters on this forum are probably conservative in some way, regarding something. If anything we can probably all agree that the government spends money stupidly, often. That used to be a core tenant of Republicans (or at least outwardly, rarely practiced). But if you're going to bring a conservative argument to a discussion, you better be able to back it up, and not just with random youtube links or nonsensical articles. You have to be able to stand on the debate stage and tell us why we should listen to you, not just that we should, then complain when we don't.

Given the practices of Republicans over the last 3 years (those that left the party/retired notwithstanding), I cannot perceive how you would call someone holloring for a straight D ticket as picking party over country. If anything it's just picking country.

 

[TheVrolok]

Typically "socialist" is defined by the government controlling or interfering free markets, nationalizing industries (which many Democrats want to do), and subsidizing industries they feel should get it (hello Green New Deal). What the Nordic countries are is a welfare state. There is a difference.

Wow, you don't know anything about the history of this country, so you?

 

[TheVrolok]

You know what? Most of you guys dont like me for some reason, and think I view the world through Trump clouded glasses. I cant have an adult, reasonable conversation about anything. Most of you are either unwilling or unable to see an alternate viewpoint. All you guys offer is anecdotal excuses. So Ill not pollute this thread any more. Carry on with the important stuff.

Everyone here is commenting on the veracity of your claims, I don't know why you are taking that personally, unless you can't find a factual or rhetorical way to defend yourself?

Sounds a lot like, "you don't agree with me and I don't have the facts to persuade you, so it's obviously because you don't like me and I'm taking my ball and going home."

 

[TheVrolok]

It's called a debate. If you were to be approaching with rational arguments backed up by data (not just 'it worked for me so it should work for you'), you'd get less arguments. Hell, I've effectively shut down 2A discussions on this board of all places. You just need to not suck at communicating.

Absolutely this, I don't agree with your opinion on some of the 2A points, but you're entirely reasonable and intellectually consistent with your position and I respect that immensely. It's no a big deal that we disagree, to me.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Sadly there is little evidence that financial education leads to meaningful changes in saving behavior. Education isn't the answer - more likely the answer is opt-out enrollment in savings programs, etc., or, you know, a better social safety net.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259763070_Financial_Literacy_Financial_Education_and_Downstream_Financial_Behaviors

Hahaha, are you serious? We aren't talking about being financially savvy - were really just talking basic understanding and basic math.

Things like... I don't know - not signing a variable interest rate mortgage (or loan in general).... Understanding what interest rates are and avoiding things like hole in the wall payday loan and car title places...

The majority of Americans are still retarded to the point of getting back large tax refunds every year and acting as if it's an accomplishment. It's quite obvious that the majority of Americans are financially retarded, you know that right? You sincerely have a fucking problem (and mental issues) if you can't fill out a simple W4 and adjust your withholding after working for a year or so in life.

We live around a culture of instead of competently simple questions like "How much interest? Can the the interest amount change?" the latest in advertisements that sucks morons in is simply saying "Pay only $100/month for a brand new car!"... They literally don't know or care about the actual value of the property or the amount in which is interest - they just want to know if they can pay a monthly amount. Then they do the same thing for credit cards with minimum amount payments. The list goes on and on. It's INCREDIBLY clear that education is hands down one of our biggest problems.

 

[itsmydamnation]

Wow. I dont think you'd get much, if any, support for that.

Oh wait. Hey we'll tax you so much you cant afford rent or food, but dont worry! We'll give it to you!

Your full of shit, explain Australia or the UK, or Canada

Table I.6. All-in average personal income tax rates at average wage by family type

OECD.Stat enables users to search for and extract data from across OECD’s many databases.

stats.oecd.org

Almost same overall income tax rate as the USA , strong medical safety nets, strong social safety nets, strong public education systems.

Your completely ignoring what counties like Belgium , Sweden, Finland do that is above and beyond those things but trying to pretend like thats the cost to have strong social medial, social and education systems when its not.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Hahaha, are you serious? We aren't talking about being financially savvy - were really just talking basic understanding and basic math.

Things like... I don't know - not signing a variable interest rate mortgage (or loan in general).... Understanding what interest rates are and avoiding things like hole in the wall payday loan and car title places...

The majority of Americans are still retarded to the point of getting back large tax refunds every year and acting as if it's an accomplishment. It's quite obvious that the majority of Americans are financially retarded, you know that right? You sincerely have a fucking problem (and mental issues) if you can't fill out a simple W4 and adjust your withholding after working for a year or so in life.

We live around a culture of instead of competently simple questions like "How much interest? Can the the interest amount change?" the latest in advertisements that sucks morons in is simply saying "Pay only $100/month for a brand new car!"... They literally don't know or care about the actual value of the property or the amount in which is interest - they just want to know if they can pay a monthly amount. Then they do the same thing for credit cards with minimum amount payments. The list goes on and on. It's INCREDIBLY clear that education is hands down one of our biggest problems.

It's interesting that you're focusing entirely on educating people (which I think is great, education is wonderful) but not even commenting on the fact that predatory lenders are allowed to exist, or that we even have to fill out a W4 is a problem. But yeah, those being predated upon are the retards. We're the ones with mental issues.

 

[SMOGZINN]

We live around a culture of instead of competently simple questions like "How much interest? Can the the interest amount change?" the latest in advertisements that sucks morons in is simply saying "Pay only $100/month for a brand new car!"... They literally don't know or care about the actual value of the property or the amount in which is interest - they just want to know if they can pay a monthly amount. Then they do the same thing for credit cards with minimum amount payments. The list goes on and on. It's INCREDIBLY clear that education is hands down one of our biggest problems.

Do you really believe it is because they don't know any better? That in this nation people are so poorly educated that they don't know these are terrible options? Or is it perhaps that they don't really have many better options and don't see any real hope of things getting any better so they feel that they might as well get what they can while they can?

The economy runs on hope as much as any other factor, and honestly many people don't have much of that.
Why save for tomorrow if you don't think there is going to be a tomorrow?

 

[fskimospy]

Hahaha, are you serious? We aren't talking about being financially savvy - were really just talking basic understanding and basic math.

Things like... I don't know - not signing a variable interest rate mortgage (or loan in general).... Understanding what interest rates are and avoiding things like hole in the wall payday loan and car title places...

The majority of Americans are still retarded to the point of getting back large tax refunds every year and acting as if it's an accomplishment. It's quite obvious that the majority of Americans are financially retarded, you know that right? You sincerely have a fucking problem (and mental issues) if you can't fill out a simple W4 and adjust your withholding after working for a year or so in life.

We live around a culture of instead of competently simple questions like "How much interest? Can the the interest amount change?" the latest in advertisements that sucks morons in is simply saying "Pay only $100/month for a brand new car!"... They literally don't know or care about the actual value of the property or the amount in which is interest - they just want to know if they can pay a monthly amount. Then they do the same thing for credit cards with minimum amount payments. The list goes on and on. It's INCREDIBLY clear that education is hands down one of our biggest problems.

Be honest - you didn't even bother to read any part of my link before responding, did you? I know you didn't, because pretty much exactly the behaviors you mention here are ones the research shows financial education is ineffective at remedying.

So no, education is not one of our biggest problems - if anything it looks like a waste of time and money. Ironically, your post might be a good example as to why financial education is ineffective - when presented with information about its efficacy you just ignored it and went with your gut. That's what a lot of people do with their money.

 

[hal2kilo]

Hahaha, are you serious? We aren't talking about being financially savvy - were really just talking basic understanding and basic math.

Things like... I don't know - not signing a variable interest rate mortgage (or loan in general).... Understanding what interest rates are and avoiding things like hole in the wall payday loan and car title places...

The majority of Americans are still retarded to the point of getting back large tax refunds every year and acting as if it's an accomplishment. It's quite obvious that the majority of Americans are financially retarded, you know that right? You sincerely have a fucking problem (and mental issues) if you can't fill out a simple W4 and adjust your withholding after working for a year or so in life.

We live around a culture of instead of competently simple questions like "How much interest? Can the the interest amount change?" the latest in advertisements that sucks morons in is simply saying "Pay only $100/month for a brand new car!"... They literally don't know or care about the actual value of the property or the amount in which is interest - they just want to know if they can pay a monthly amount. Then they do the same thing for credit cards with minimum amount payments. The list goes on and on. It's INCREDIBLY clear that education is hands down one of our biggest problems.

Thanks for pointing out the general dishonesty of the mortgage industry.

 

[zinfamous]

Now youre mincing words. No Im not saying that. But the reason countries like Norway have such large social programs is because they tax their citizens extraordinarily high.That cant be ignored. Tax revenue to GDP is about 35% in Norway compared to about 25% in the USA. Liberals think if only we could raise taxes on the wealthy they could pay for their proposals. Which is false.

wait, why?

you actually need to explain that...because it provably worked for about 100 years here.

 

[zinfamous]

Be honest - you didn't even bother to read any part of my link before responding, did you? I know you didn't, because pretty much exactly the behaviors you mention here are ones the research shows financial education is ineffective at remedying.

So no, education is not one of our biggest problems - if anything it looks like a waste of time and money. Ironically, your post might be a good example as to why financial education is ineffective - when presented with information about its efficacy you just ignored it and went with your gut. That's what a lot of people do with their money.

it's almost like...s0me0nesmind is the guy that always touts financial education, but yells at people for being "educated elite" but really just stupid, and only ever belies the fact that he really doesn't know all that much about finances anyway (at least that which he always chooses to comment on around here) despite his apparent brilliant education in finance that amazingly was the type that prevents him from being elite, somehow.

 

[zinfamous]

Typically "socialist" is defined by the government controlling or interfering free markets, nationalizing industries (which many Democrats want to do), and subsidizing industries they feel should get it (hello Green New Deal). What the Nordic countries are is a welfare state. There is a difference.

why do republicans get to subsidize the industries they want to (gun lobby, religious education, farmers, top 0.01% CEOs) and that isn't socialism?

no so-called conservative has ever tried to explain this for some reason.

 

[zinfamous]

Guess you missed the point lol

it's not a point. it's a deflection that is cliche now, and only ever exposes the person deploying it as an unthinking rube.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

why do republicans get to subsidize the industries they want to (gun lobby, religious education, farmers, top 0.01% CEOs) and that isn't socialism?

no so-called conservative has ever tried to explain this for some reason.

And you'll never get an answer. Critical thinking is kryptonite to people like that, and the second they start thinking about it, it forms a spiderweb of cracks in their reality, so they retreat.

 

[zinfamous]

I often supply links to support my arguments. Not only that, Ive conceded my own points and stated when Ive been wrong more than anyone on this board. The issue is although Im socially middle ground, Im financially conservative. And this board has no place for conservatism in any form. Look around. All kinds of posters pick party over country (the call to vote straight Democrat for example and the name calling of the GOP party for another).Most posters are as politically blind as theyre claim to the blindness of Trump supports. I know, I know, its different. Theyre right.

/wave

If you find a conservative around here, let us know. All I've seen are Trumpians and whatever other chaff was left about after the Dubya years.

Bill Clinton was the last actual conservative politician anywhere. If you don't believe that, then you obviously don't know conservatism.

 

[fskimospy]

If you find a conservative around here, let us know. All I've seen are Trumpians and whatever other chaff was left about after the Dubya years.

Bill Clinton was the last actual conservative politician anywhere. If you don't believe that, then you obviously don't know conservatism.

What's interesting about this is you have one party, the Republicans, who just turned a blind eye to the president attempting to enlist illegal foreign aid in his re-election by extorting Ukraine with taxpayer money. When people say 'we can't vote for Republicans anymore because of this', WE are the apparent partisans.

Mind blowing.

 

[nakedfrog]

What's interesting about this is you have one party, the Republicans, who just turned a blind eye to the president attempting to enlist illegal foreign aid in his re-election by extorting Ukraine with taxpayer money. When people say 'we can't vote for Republicans anymore because of this', WE are the apparent partisans.

Mind blowing.

Also same party ignoring election security bills, and is also against a widely supported move to make election day a holiday.

 

[Vic]

Pension dependence is essentially for the mentally retarded.

"I'll trust YOU to do with my money as you best see fit. I trust you!"

Sure bud, sure.



It's the same thing as depending on social security for your retirement. In this case (and plenty of other pension problem cases) it's problems related to money that is promised that was essentially never there. They were never paid by the employees, but were promised interest rates that no reasonable investor would ever promise.

Listen to this video around ~33:30. It's exactly what I'm talking about.

What's really mentally retarded is that you actually believe your bullshit.
What we need to do is make it so everyone who thinks like you has to suffer the consequences of their ideas, without fucking over the rest of us, as you propose so condescendingly. As in, you can keep paying Social Security taxes and pension contributions (if that applies to you) and not get any of those benefits. The rest of us will continue to insist on holding our political leaders to their legal obligations with regards to our money.

 

[Vic]

Hahaha, are you serious? We aren't talking about being financially savvy - were really just talking basic understanding and basic math.

Things like... I don't know - not signing a variable interest rate mortgage (or loan in general).... Understanding what interest rates are and avoiding things like hole in the wall payday loan and car title places...

The majority of Americans are still retarded to the point of getting back large tax refunds every year and acting as if it's an accomplishment. It's quite obvious that the majority of Americans are financially retarded, you know that right? You sincerely have a fucking problem (and mental issues) if you can't fill out a simple W4 and adjust your withholding after working for a year or so in life.

We live around a culture of instead of competently simple questions like "How much interest? Can the the interest amount change?" the latest in advertisements that sucks morons in is simply saying "Pay only $100/month for a brand new car!"... They literally don't know or care about the actual value of the property or the amount in which is interest - they just want to know if they can pay a monthly amount. Then they do the same thing for credit cards with minimum amount payments. The list goes on and on. It's INCREDIBLY clear that education is hands down one of our biggest problems.

Says the guy who got all his financial education from youtube..

 

[Vic]

Thanks for pointing out the general dishonesty of the mortgage industry.

The mortgage industry, as a whole, has improved tremendously in the last decade. Partly from regulation, but mostly from lessons learned. Much of the remaining dishonesty seems to stem from inexperienced sales people desperate for commissions.
Quick tip on how to avoid those. NMLS ID numbers are issued sequentially and are never changed once issued. So look for originators with lower numbers as, generally speaking, higher numbers mean less experience. New numbers currently being issued are right about the 2 million mark (my own is low 5 digits).

 

[IronWing]

How fondly I remember the magic of compound interest. Those were the halcyon days of yore before the Fed said, "F' the savers, zero interest for everybody!"

 

[nakedfrog]

How fondly I remember the magic of compound interest. Those were the halcyon days of yore before the Fed said, "F' the savers, zero interest for everybody!"

My high yield savings has gone down from 2% to 1.7% in the past year 🙁

 

[Jhhnn]

The mortgage industry, as a whole, has improved tremendously in the last decade. Partly from regulation, but mostly from lessons learned. Much of the remaining dishonesty seems to stem from inexperienced sales people desperate for commissions.
Quick tip on how to avoid those. NMLS ID numbers are issued sequentially and are never changed once issued. So look for originators with lower numbers as, generally speaking, higher numbers mean less experience. New numbers currently being issued are right about the 2 million mark (my own is low 5 digits).

The corruption in the mortgage industry during the housing boom originated at the other end, at the underwriters & ratings agencies. Lots of creative thinking involving gaussian cupolas & the ability to represent crap as gold to investors. They make the rules the mortgage sales guys live within. So when they lowered the standards to the bar laying on the ground, the sales guys just went along with it. Write more deals & make more money. If you don't, somebody else will. Dems da rules. Meanwhile, the big banks packaged more MBS & sold them to each other. I'll buy yours if you'll buy mine & we'll both claim they're assets, OK?

 

[Vic]

The corruption in the mortgage industry during the housing boom originated at the other end, at the underwriters & ratings agencies. Lots of creative thinking involving gaussian cupolas & the ability to represent crap as gold to investors. They make the rules the mortgage sales guys live within. So when they lowered the standards to the bar laying on the ground, the sales guys just went along with it. Write more deals & make more money. If you don't, somebody else will. Dems da rules. Meanwhile, the big banks packaged more MBS & sold them to each other. I'll buy yours if you'll buy mine & we'll both claim they're assets, OK?

You should stick to things you actually know something about. Wall Street and the investors weren't the ones being suckered. Quite the opposite, they were the ones doing the suckering. They demanded that subprime paper, the uglier the better, and would pay a premium for it. And just like those sales guys, underwriters either found a way to make that crap paper look good, or Wall Street took its money elsewhere, and you lost your job. Because, like you said, if you don't, somebody else will.
It also cannot be overstated the extent to which the average American is willing to overextend themselves during a housing boom. Including the current one, I might add.