Free Trade versus Democracy

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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Craig234


What we need instead is simply for the public to get better informed - I've many times posted ways to do that - and to push for a healthier democracy.

I agree 100%. The problem, though, is how do you combat apathy and laziness? Because those two are really the only reason people arent more informed. No amount of legislation, or no matter what political party is in power, will change that. There's alot of truth in the man in the mirror analogy.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234


What we need instead is simply for the public to get better informed - I've many times posted ways to do that - and to push for a healthier democracy.

I agree 100%. The problem, though, is how do you combat apathy and laziness? Because those two are really the only reason people arent more informed. No amount of legislation, or no matter what political party is in power, will change that. There's alot of truth in the man in the mirror analogy.

People are apathetic and lazy because they are dependent on others to do and answer for them.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234


What we need instead is simply for the public to get better informed - I've many times posted ways to do that - and to push for a healthier democracy.

I agree 100%. The problem, though, is how do you combat apathy and laziness? Because those two are really the only reason people arent more informed. No amount of legislation, or no matter what political party is in power, will change that. There's alot of truth in the man in the mirror analogy.

People are apathetic and lazy because they are dependent on others to do and answer for them.

Oh, I know. We as a nation have become too dependent on our government. And we currently have a government creating nothing more than further dependency. Thats not my question. My question is, as I stated it, how do you combat it?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234


What we need instead is simply for the public to get better informed - I've many times posted ways to do that - and to push for a healthier democracy.

I agree 100%. The problem, though, is how do you combat apathy and laziness? Because those two are really the only reason people arent more informed. No amount of legislation, or no matter what political party is in power, will change that. There's alot of truth in the man in the mirror analogy.

People are apathetic and lazy because they are dependent on others to do and answer for them.

Oh, I know. We as a nation have become too dependent on our government. And we currently have a government creating nothing more than further dependency. Thats not my question. My question is, as I stated it, how do you combat it?

Make them responsible for themselves.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234


What we need instead is simply for the public to get better informed - I've many times posted ways to do that - and to push for a healthier democracy.

I agree 100%. The problem, though, is how do you combat apathy and laziness? Because those two are really the only reason people arent more informed. No amount of legislation, or no matter what political party is in power, will change that. There's alot of truth in the man in the mirror analogy.

People are apathetic and lazy because they are dependent on others to do and answer for them.

Oh, I know. We as a nation have become too dependent on our government. And we currently have a government creating nothing more than further dependency. Thats not my question. My question is, as I stated it, how do you combat it?

Make them responsible for themselves.

Impossible in a democracy.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Maybe I missed something, but we start with the statement:

Free Trade is the enemy of democracy. In ways.

And then we move on to a huge number of examples of things that are not actually free trade, but labeled free trade. And, how all those fake "free trade" agendas have been powerful countries using their influence through laws, international bodies, and monetary incentives to take advantage of other countries for their own profit.

Something akin to this ridiculous argument: Seat belts are evil murdering devices. I know a bunch of people who bought baseball bats and then put a sticker on them that said "seat belt." Those people took those "seat belts" out and beat a bunch of minorities to death, therefore we must ban seat belts.


And finally, are you against actual free trade, or just the republican lie that they have called free trade? Because as I remember it, free trade is the ability for people to trade with people from other nations just as they trade with people in their own nation. Without the nation's meddling to prevent that trading, whether through force or policy. You seem to be complaining about the very meddling that makes your examples not "free trade."
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: daishi5
Maybe I missed something, but we start with the statement:

Free Trade is the enemy of democracy. In ways.

And then we move on to a huge number of examples of things that are not actually free trade, but labeled free trade. And, how all those fake "free trade" agendas have been powerful countries using their influence through laws, international bodies, and monetary incentives to take advantage of other countries for their own profit.

Something akin to this ridiculous argument: Seat belts are evil murdering devices. I know a bunch of people who bought baseball bats and then put a sticker on them that said "seat belt." Those people took those "seat belts" out and beat a bunch of minorities to death, therefore we must ban seat belts.


And finally, are you against actual free trade, or just the republican lie that they have called free trade? Because as I remember it, free trade is the ability for people to trade with people from other nations just as they trade with people in their own nation. Without the nation's meddling to prevent that trading, whether through force or policy. You seem to be complaining about the very meddling that makes your examples not "free trade."

Totally agree. It's funny that OP toss the term free trade around and apply it to things that most people would call "imperialism". Not sure if it's out of his own ignorance or he just wanna push his political agenda and confuse people on the Internet who don't have much knowldege and background on economy and world history.

The premise of the OP is totally wrong and my advise to OP is before you wanna criticize Free trade, get the term right first.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,240
19,128
146
It takes a VERY twisted mind to portray freedom as an enemy of democracy.

Seriously twisted.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
I believe free trade is mostly a sound principal, but starts running into problems when you have instances of large differences in currency valuations and environmental protections. Enacting painful and costly environmental and labor restrictions on native industries, while failing to address the inevitable offshoring of those industries, will eventually be our undoing.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
Hey Craig... wanted to respond albeit a little late...

It's a terrible analogy.

I'm going to return to Presidnet Grant for a comment:

"As we view the achievements of aggregated capital, we discover the existence of trusts, combinations, and monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the rear or is trampled to death beneath an iron heel. Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people's masters."


The analogy is simple enough... the wealthy aren't all criminals simply because they are wealthy nor is their wealth the rightful property of the public. Wealth gained through illegal means (collusion, felonies, etc.) is another story... I'm with you 100% on that. But their are a lot of wealthy who did actually work really hard for their money and took a lot of risks and made a lot of sacrifices to get where they are.



Your comment completely neglects the issue of the concentrated power and wealth that can come to exist beign a form of tyranny the public needs protection from.

I did not intend to neglect this issue... I just get sick of typing after a while. But I agree it is an issue. To string a few quotes together:

"power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

"money is the root of power"

So inherently... I think the wealthy, in general, cannot be trusted to behave ethically or morally.... some can but the majority cannot be trusted.


Of *course* the public can infringe on the rights and freedoms of a select few for the good of others - it's done every time they prevent slavery, prevent monopoly, prevent tyranny.

But it can't be done for small reasons, a degree of inequality for those who deserve more is good for the society.


Having money and having slaves are not literally the same thing... although it is closer in our society than I'd like to admit. So in, say, taking money from wealthy by mandate do you punish the innocence wealthy (who are upstanding, moral, and ethical) in with the lot in name of 'justice for all'... I say no. That provides a slippery slope of sorts.


That last is ideology, IMO false ideology. I see all kinds of very hard-working poor - and issues of inhumane situations for them.

People have plenty of incentives to be productive. They do better when they are not struggling for the basic needs. Base the statement on facts, not ideology.


And yet we have examples in history that show that pure socialist experiments always fail... because they do not heed that human nature is fundamentally lazy and self serving. If my essential needs were met I wouldn't work... ever, unless i had to... I'd rather go hiking or play guitar or go play basketball, etc.

There has to be a carrot and a genuine reward for hard work, intelligent risk taking, ingenuity, etc. Thus we need some elements of good old fashion capitalism and free trade principles. Now I grant you that these elements should be watched and carefully balanced to guard against what basically amounts to criminal activity.


Something like that will never pass here of course but I think it would be a good idea.

I think something like that has a lot of benefits. The people don't realize it, though.


We can always hope... and if we don't something like we will eventually reach a tipping point and we will have a French revolution on our hands. But the rich are often remarkably ignorant of history.

 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
you know after reading some of the posts in multiple threads i think over half the people in P&N don't know what an ad hominem attack even is... and that in the forum of debate, ad hominem attacks are frowned upon, to say the least, as very poor form. It used to be that, in a proper debate, if you made any form of ad hominem, you lost you the debate.

We need a sticky thread with some basic definitions of 'poor debating/discussion practices'.

I read too much tripe on here where someone is basically attempting to invalidate someone else's view "because that person is stupid, or was dropped/abused as a child, etc."
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Craig234 is the enemy of democracy.

Economic equality is not a defining characteristic of democracy, nor does economic equality guarantee political equality. Likewise, heavily regulated or even state-controlled trade does not guarantee economic equality.

The OP was basically one rambling non sequitur. The only thing he was right about is that there is no black and white, although he did spend the rest of the post trying to disprove himself on that point.

be more specific...your point?
Or do you ever have a point.....