Free Thinkers and Sheeple

[irwincur]

Just curious here, but this has been bugging me for a while. There are definitely two groups of people on this board. The people on the left and right - and according to each, the other is wrong.

Now, a classic attack from the lefties against the righties is to call them sheeple, stupid, lacking free thought, etc... Whatever they can get from Dean's playbook. On the other hand the lefties always claim to be free thinkers and open to opinion.

Now. This is where the problem lies.



For being free thinkers, why does every post coming from the left side of the spectrum begin with a biased article which is then commented on pretty much verbatim. Nothing free about it.

On the flip side I tend to see people on the right actually argue using their own brains and a bit of free thought.

It just seems odd that the people who claim to be free thinkers never bother to post an original thought of any consequence yet those that are not the free thinkers are the ones that tend to look outside of the box.

I must be confused, but I looked through a lot of old posts and this seems to be the case almost every time.

 

[chrisms]

This place sucks. Because what I'm saying right now doesn't matter, nobody cares what you said, and the guy below me is going the be a douche either way. It's best just to come here for the interesting articles which can rarely come up.

 

[yllus]

Prior to President Bush being elected, I would have said the exact opposite. The "left" was generally level-headed and used their brains, and the "right" was incredibly whiny. Real veterans of this forum can back me up on this.

It seems there's a duty of the opposition to be whiny, annoying bastards. Any good that those in power do are overlooked and the mistakes magnified a hundred-fold.

There are a few people who for whatever reason don't identify with either party, and instead pick and choose their positions on each topic as it comes forward. Moderates, mount up!

 

[Stunt]

There are far more than two groups on this forum. Huge misperception on your part. If you deem this to be true, I ask you to categorize me into a group.

There are sheep and thinkers on all points of the spectrum. I don't think there are many sheep here, as we are far more well informed than most of the electorate.

Is the sole purpose of this thread to try to determine which of the "two groups" has more free thinkers?...because that's very much open to interpretation and would be aimed at piting one group versus the other, i don't know what this would accomplish.

 

[zendari]

Why does the left have to think? They believe that the rich should pay for their existence, that every Republican/Christian/Bush voter/etc is stupid/bigoted/selfish/evil, and since they all circlejerk around their hatred they think they are geniuses.

All the left has done is fingerpoint and whine, and thus they are a dying bunch. They may call 55+ million Americans idiots, because we see them for what they truly are.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: yllus
There are a few people who for whatever reason don't identify with either party, and instead pick and choose their positions on each topic as it comes forward. Moderates, mount up!

It's possible to identify with a party and choose positions as they come forward. The two aren't mutually exclusive in case you were suggesting that.

Do you think it's bad to be partisan?

 

[Cobalt]

Originally posted by: yllus
Prior to President Bush being elected, I would have said the exact opposite. The "left" was generally level-headed and used their brains, and the "right" was incredibly whiny. Real veterans of this forum can back me up on this.

It seems there's a duty of the opposition to be whiny, annoying bastards. Any good that those in power do are overlooked and the mistakes magnified a hundred-fold.

There are a few people who for whatever reason don't identify with either party, and instead pick and choose their positions on each topic as it comes forward. Moderates, mount up!

Hi.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: zendari
Why does the left have to think? They believe that the rich should pay for their existence, that every Republican/Christian/Bush voter/etc is stupid/bigoted/selfish/evil, and since they all circlejerk around their hatred they think they are geniuses.

All the left has done is fingerpoint and whine, and thus they are a dying bunch. They may call 55+ million Americans idiots, because we see them for what they truly are.

Meanwhile you call the left mindless idiots?...pfff that's an awesome argument. 'They are idiots because they call us idiots'...

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: yllus
There are a few people who for whatever reason don't identify with either party, and instead pick and choose their positions on each topic as it comes forward. Moderates, mount up!

It's possible to identify with a party and choose positions as they come forward. The two aren't mutually exclusive in case you were suggesting that.

Do you think it's bad to be partisan?

I think it's bad to be partisan, means you have preformed judgements, biased opinions and not open to suggestion.

There's nothing wrong with understanding that a party best suits your ideals, but taking sides first (partisan) before learning is wrong.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Just curious here, but this has been bugging me for a while. There are definitely two groups of people on this board. The people on the left and right - and according to each, the other is wrong.

Now, a classic attack from the lefties against the righties is to call them sheeple, stupid, lacking free thought, etc... Whatever they can get from Dean's playbook. On the other hand the lefties always claim to be free thinkers and open to opinion.

Now. This is where the problem lies.

For being free thinkers, why does every post coming from the left side of the spectrum begin with a biased article which is then commented on pretty much verbatim. Nothing free about it.

On the flip side I tend to see people on the right actually argue using their own brains and a bit of free thought.

It just seems odd that the people who claim to be free thinkers never bother to post an original thought of any consequence yet those that are not the free thinkers are the ones that tend to look outside of the box.

I must be confused, but I looked through a lot of old posts and this seems to be the case almost every time.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Do you think it's bad to be partisan?

I think it's bad to be partisan, means you have preformed judgements, biased opinions and not open to suggestion.[/quote]

Of course it doesn't mean either of those things. It's possible you formed the judgments on your own and became a partisan. It's also possible to be partisan and to be open to suggestion. I am going to bump this thread for you. Please respond to my first post if you have any problems with it.

 

[Genx87]

The left on this board are anything but free thinkers for the most part.

You get the same pre-programmed responses about Bush is a liar, baby killer, murderer, criminal.

Just today one of them was so incesed(sp) with Bush he brought him up in a thread about civilian casualties and tried to pass it off as me bringing up the subject.

Another classic example is how no matter the subject it is proof of the radical religious right taking over the world. Doesnt even have to be a topic that is relevant the pro-programmed response kicks in.

When you cant even enter into a debate without throwing out the party line and closing your mind to anything that will put Bush in a good light. Then it is apparent who the real sheeple are.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Genx87
The left on this board are anything but free thinkers for the most part.

You get the same pre-programmed responses about Bush is a liar, baby killer, murderer, criminal.

The truth is pre-programmed responses now according to Republicans, figures.

 

[Ldir]

Originally posted by: Genx87
You get the same pre-programmed responses about Bush is a liar, baby killer, murderer, criminal.

Isn't that what the right called Kerry? Doh.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Just curious here, but this has been bugging me for a while. There are definitely two groups of people on this board. The people on the left and right - and according to each, the other is wrong.

Now, a classic attack from the lefties against the righties is to call them sheeple, stupid, lacking free thought, etc... Whatever they can get from Dean's playbook. On the other hand the lefties always claim to be free thinkers and open to opinion.

Now. This is where the problem lies.



For being free thinkers, why does every post coming from the left side of the spectrum begin with a biased article which is then commented on pretty much verbatim. Nothing free about it.

On the flip side I tend to see people on the right actually argue using their own brains and a bit of free thought.

It just seems odd that the people who claim to be free thinkers never bother to post an original thought of any consequence yet those that are not the free thinkers are the ones that tend to look outside of the box.

I must be confused, but I looked through a lot of old posts and this seems to be the case almost every time.

There are a few like those you mention but the members on the Right like to categorize everybody who disagrees with them with those Nutjob Lefties. I've been labeled such by extremists like Crimson and Cad and I've been called a NeoCon by the Left Extremists like Steeplerot or Proletariat.

Anyway, both sides usually cancel themselves out because they usually end up in a major pissing match in every thread they participate in.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: zendari
Why does the left have to think? They believe that the rich should pay for their existence, that every Republican/Christian/Bush voter/etc is stupid/bigoted/selfish/evil, and since they all circlejerk around their hatred they think they are geniuses.

All the left has done is fingerpoint and whine, and thus they are a dying bunch. They may call 55+ million Americans idiots, because we see them for what they truly are.

You are not much better, trust me.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
.. trust me.

/me looks at red's sig and scratches head. :laugh:

CsG

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: zendari
Why does the left have to think? They believe that the rich should pay for their existence, that every Republican/Christian/Bush voter/etc is stupid/bigoted/selfish/evil, and since they all circlejerk around their hatred they think they are geniuses.

All the left has done is fingerpoint and whine, and thus they are a dying bunch. They may call 55+ million Americans idiots, because we see them for what they truly are.

Perhaps you should get your eyeglass prescription checked.

 

[Stunt]

Red Dawn is one of the more rational on this forum. Cad, Crimson, Rip, Irwincur, Steeplerot and Infohawk are not so much; but i wouldn't consider any of them Sheep: partisan yes, but that's expected on a Political forum.

 

[GTKeeper]

I think that true free thinkers are people who are 'in the middle'. The problem is that it is hard to have a 'free thinker' following because it requires just that, thinking. It is much easier to follow one side or the other. Free thinkers have relative stances.

I consider myself to be in the middle. I do not view the world as black or white which MANY MANY leftists and righties view it as. I am sorry to say but the world is gray. Sometimes it is a bit more gray or less gray, but it isnt just 'right' and 'wrong' black and white.

It usually means getting slammed by both sides when arguing a point. If I say I support war (in general sometimes it is very necessary) but I don't support the current Iraq war, then I will get bashed by the lefties saying 'oh but you still support war' and I will get bashed by the righties saying 'oh great, you don't support the Iraq war, you must not believe in freedom.

With comments and reports like that, how can you actually have a meaningful debate?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Red Dawn is one of the more rational on this forum.

At times...

CsG

 

[jackschmittusa]

Well, some things about our current government are so obvious, anyone can figure them out on their own.

I called GWB a liar and coniver long before it became commonplace. Didn't seem hard to figure out.

Been complaining about "secret government" ever since Cheney's meetings with all of the energy bigwigs.

Have been alarmed about mixing religion and government since GWB announced his "faith based inititive".

Had held the position that the war in Iraq was based on BS before the first soldier set foot in the country. Thought it was pretty obvious that Sadaam was contained and not a threat. Predicted that the aftermath would be a nightmare because of the power struggle between various factions and that a "Christian nation" had occupied a Muslem country.

Argued from the beginning that GWB's numbers for the income and budget were smoke and mirrors.

I am not a Democrat, and so have no interest in parroting any party line. I have noticed many flaws and shortcomings in the current government early in their development. So I see no fault in pointing out or discussing the myriad examples that further illustrate the points as they arise.

I take full credit for my conclusions, thank you very much.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: irwincur
On the flip side I tend to see people on the right actually argue using their own brains and a bit of free thought.

It just seems odd that the people who claim to be free thinkers never bother to post an original thought of any consequence yet those that are not the free thinkers are the ones that tend to look outside of the box.

I must be confused, but I looked through a lot of old posts and this seems to be the case almost every time.

whether i agree or disagree if someone has put some thought into why they feel a certain way about a certain issue (based on some reasoning) they are free thinking enough for me. with an increasing connection between religion (which can be somewhat intent on decreasing free thought of it's followers) and republicans the generalization that the republicans are "sheeple" is going to become more and more prevalent (and to some degree true). On the democratic side it's mostly the younger and less informed that are the non-thinkers of that side (mostly dumb college kids).

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: irwincur
The people on the left and right - and according to each, the other is wrong.

Now, a classic attack from the lefties against the righties is to call them sheeple, stupid, lacking free thought, etc... Whatever they can get from Dean's playbook. On the other hand the lefties always claim to be free thinkers and open to opinion.

Now. This is where the problem lies.

For being free thinkers, why does every post coming from the left side of the spectrum begin with a biased article which is then commented on pretty much verbatim. Nothing free about it.

I can speak only for myself, as someone definitely on the left.

First, I do not automatically claim that the opinion of those on the right is wrong. What I find most infuriating is when someone on the right (and I don't see it nearly as often on the left) makes an argument based on a claimed "principle". Then, in a different thread on a different subject, that same person will take an exactly opposite stance with respect to that "principle".

For example, without naming specific people (the Moderators on this forum apparently don't like us to name someone who is not an active participant in the same thread), there's an active righty who frequently dismisses left-leaning statements as being "only allegations" without offering anything substantive to contradict the statement.

But this same person on a different thread will, with no apparent qualms, offer up and/or support right-leaning statements that are in fact "only allegations", and when confronted by a lefty opposing the presented viewpoint will demand, er (excuse me), ask for evidence/proof that the allegation is false.

This "heads I win, tails you lose" style of debate is hard to respect. All of us - left and right - who feel strongly about issues sometimes lapse into unprincipled rhetoric. But I think I see it happening quite a lot more (on these forums especially) by righties.

As to your point about quoting from articles: I view these articles as mere starting points for a debate. Hopefully, the posted article comes from a source of impeccable credentials, but often that's not the case. I myself have on a few occasions searched the web just to find articles supporting some outrageous left-wing position, just to "tweak" some of the more active righties on this forum.

And I certainly am prepared to make my own points. If you look at my posts, I will frequently make an extended philosophical point based on my own thoughts. But too much of that, and people will ask, "Where's your evidence?" I think we need both, quotes (to keep the threads grounded) and personal opinions (to keep the discussion active). Conjur (on vacation for a month) had plenty of his own things to say, despite his frequent postings of articles. The list goes on.

The "sheeple" label is NOT typically addressed at the righties on this thread. From a left-wing perspective, a "sheeple" is someone who isn't prone to think for themselves, and is lulled into accepting the propaganda of the right. For example, when gasoline goes up from $1.85 to $2.40 a gallon, and then goes back down to $2.10, we lefties would call those who think, "Gee, gas is cheap again" sheeple.

As to "Dean's playbook", I don't know what that means. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but frankly, I think Dean is one of the few politicians out there who actually says what he really believes. That may make him unelectable, but at least you know where he stands. If you have some specific Dean "strategy" in mind, please be explicit. I'm perfectly willing to question the methods of those on the left if I think they're engaging in questionable practices.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Red Dawn is one of the more rational on this forum. Cad, Crimson, Rip, Irwincur, Steeplerot and Infohawk are not so much; but i wouldn't consider any of them Sheep: partisan yes, but that's expected on a Political forum.

I would say Cad, Crimson, Rip, Irwincur, Steeplerot, and Infohawk are not sheep, but almost there. I.E They argue with ideology and not critical thinking.


When it is more predictable how they would vote in an election (and I think most of us can guess how the above would vote) I think that puts people more to one side. When you DONT know how a person will vote, then you can start talking about 'being in the middle'.