Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Londo_Jowo]

Here's the officers and the charges against them.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...e-gray-mosby-presser-0502-20150501-story.html

Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., 45, who was the driver of a police van that carried Gray through the streets of Baltimore, was charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter, second-degree assault, two vehicular manslaughter charges and misconduct in office.

Officer William Porter, 25, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.

Lt. Brian Rice, 41, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.

Sgt. Alicia White, 30, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.

Officer Edward Nero, 29, was charged with second-degree assault and misconduct in office.

Officer Garrett Miller, 26, was charged with second-degree assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Again, my understanding is that murder does not require intent to kill, feel free to point me to the statute that contradicts that.

http://pricebenowitz.com/maryland/homicide-lawyer-md/

Second Degree Murder

Second degree murder, covered under Maryland Criminal Code § 2-204, makes it illegal to commit any murder, even if it was not premeditated, willful, or deliberate. The distinction between second degree murder and manslaughter is in the intent. Therefore, a second degree murder must be intentional.

Also, a man is dead and these cops are charged with felonies. Please explain why this is not felony murder.

That's a question for the DA as I have no clue as to why they chose the charges they did.

 

[Blanky]

False imprisonment is probably bogus but nice to see the other charges if he really did die due to misconduct. How often are half a dozen police charged in such a thing? Ever? Pretty damn rare. We need to break the back of this brotherhood in blue bullshit.

 

[waggy]

False imprisonment is probably bogus but nice to see the other charges if he really did die due to misconduct. How often are half a dozen police charged in such a thing? Ever? Pretty damn rare. We need to break the back of this brotherhood in blue bullshit.

agreed.

I do think it's starting to get a crack (i hope). with cameras being everywhere people are recording it and getting outraged. People are also taking cops of the "hero" pedestal people them on

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

In most or all states (including Maryland), felony murder does not arise where the underlying felony is assault and battery (if it did, that would effectively contravene the distinction between first-degree murder and lesser degrees of homicide, since murder is nearly always committed through some flavor of battery).

In Maryland, the first-degree murder statute enumerates the specific felonies that can give rise to felony murder. From http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/f...on=2-201&ext=html&session=2015RS&tab=subject5 -

§2–201.

(a) A murder is in the first degree if it is:

(1) a deliberate, premeditated, and willful killing;

(2) committed by lying in wait;

(3) committed by poison; or

(4) committed in the perpetration of or an attempt to perpetrate:

(i) arson in the first degree;

(ii) burning a barn, stable, tobacco house, warehouse, or other outbuilding that:

1. is not parcel to a dwelling; and

2. contains cattle, goods, wares, merchandise, horses, grain, hay, or tobacco;

(iii) burglary in the first, second, or third degree;

(iv) carjacking or armed carjacking;

(v) escape in the first degree from a State correctional facility or a local correctional facility;

(vi) kidnapping under § 3-502 or § 3-503(a)(2) of this article;

(vii) mayhem;

(viii) rape;

(ix) robbery under § 3-402 or § 3-403 of this article;

(x) sexual offense in the first or second degree;

(xi) sodomy; or

(xii) a violation of § 4-503 of this article concerning destructive devices.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Also, a man is dead and these cops are charged with felonies. Please explain why this is not felony murder.

Because the felonies they're being charged with are the death. Felony murder doesn't apply to every single felony or every death would have to be charged as felony murder because manslaughter is still a felony charge. 30 second on wikipedia:

Not all felonies will apply in most jurisdictions. To "qualify" for felony murder, the underlying felony must present a foreseeable danger to life, and the link between the felony and the death must not be too remote. If the receiver of a forged check has a fatal allergic reaction to the ink, most courts will not hold the forger guilty of murder. Furthermore, the merger doctrine excludes felonies that are presupposed by a murder charge. For example, nearly all murders involve some type of assault, but so do many cases of manslaughter. To count any death that occurred during the course of an assault as felony murder would obliterate a distinction carefully set by the legislature; however, merger may not apply when an assault against one person results in the death of another.

To counter the common law style interpretations of what does and does not merge with murder (and thus what does not and does qualify for felony murder), many jurisdictions in the United States explicitly list what offenses qualify. The American Law Institute's Model Penal Code lists robbery, rape or forcible deviant sexual intercourse, arson, burglary, and felonious escape. Federal law specifies additional crimes, including terrorism, kidnapping, and carjacking.

 

[ch33zw1z]

No, I prefer to have all pertinent information before calling for someone's head. Even it's found that police should be charged with a crime they should have their day in court.

Calling for someone's head, unintended pun or crass joke? Since the victim almost lost his head....literally.

It's everyone's right to have their day in court, nobody has said otherwise. It's the Police in this matter who did not allow that to happen.

 

[Humpy]

Lol now i have to turn on the TV

That's a little extreme don't you think?

 

[Knowing]

What part of the fact pattern is even in dispute? Does anyone deny that these officers loaded Gray into a police van without restraints? Does anyone deny that he was mortally injured by the time he was removed from it?

Murder.

Schrödinger's detainee.

 

[waggy]

That's a little extreme don't you think?

LOL I know!

During the day i don't usually have it on. There is nothing worth watching and the news is so damn depressing.

 

[Blackjack200]

In most or all states (including Maryland), felony murder does not arise where the underlying felony is assault and battery (if it did, that would effectively contravene the distinction between first-degree murder and lesser degrees of homicide, since murder is nearly always committed through some flavor of battery).

In Maryland, the first-degree murder statute enumerates the specific felonies that can give rise to felony murder. From http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/f...on=2-201&ext=html&session=2015RS&tab=subject5 -

I don't understand the legal principal here but that's neither here nor there, if these are the proper charges, than that's good.

I guess what I find most upsetting is that if the roles were reversed here, I cannot believe that all six men would not be facing murder charges, but that burden cannot be borne by these six, it's just a reminder that we're not there yet, and we already knew that anyway.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I don't understand the legal principal here but that's neither here nor there, if these are the proper charges, than that's good.

I guess what I find most upsetting is that if the roles were reversed here, I cannot believe that all six men would not be facing murder charges, but that burden cannot be borne by these six, it's just a reminder that we're not there yet, and we already knew that anyway.

How would the roles be reversed? 6 civilians pummel a police officer and put him in the back of a van? Obviously that would be tried as murder because civilians are never allowed to detain an officer in such a manner, whereas police officers are allowed to detain people they've arrested. I think the cops did a horrible thing here and I hope they're found guilty, but you seem to be going slightly overboard with the bloodlust. We can dole out justice without needing a vengeance hard-on. And, let's face it, if these officers are found guilty, they're not going to have an easy time of it in prison.

 

[echo4747]

In most or all states (including Maryland), felony murder does not arise where the underlying felony is assault and battery (if it did, that would effectively contravene the distinction between first-degree murder and lesser degrees of homicide, since murder is nearly always committed through some flavor of battery).

In Maryland, the first-degree murder statute enumerates the specific felonies that can give rise to felony murder. From http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/f...on=2-201&ext=html&session=2015RS&tab=subject5 -

good info... vii) mayhem: really seems like it is a term that can be interrupted
very subjectively. (not that it applies to the F. Gray case )

 

[holden j caufield]

agreed.

I do think it's starting to get a crack (i hope). with cameras being everywhere people are recording it and getting outraged. People are also taking cops of the "hero" pedestal people them on

Cameras hopefully will make things more clear cut, I'm sure there are a lot of good cops out there that won't out the bad apples because of all the peer pressure but the cameras and the people with cameras will make it so they can't do anything without consequences.

 

[Subyman]

Didn't expect to hear charges so soon. I'm interested to see how this pans out, but I'd think it will be hard to prove the driver intentionally loaded him into the back of the van and rode roughly to harm freddie. The involuntary manslaughter charges should be easier to prove, but hopefully they can prove satisfactorily that all the cops involved were actually bad cops.

 

[Blackjack200]

How would the roles be reversed? 6 civilians pummel a police officer and put him in the back of a van? Obviously that would be tried as murder because civilians are never allowed to detain an officer in such a manner, whereas police officers are allowed to detain people they've arrested. I think the cops did a horrible thing here and I hope they're found guilty, but you seem to be going slightly overboard with the bloodlust. We can dole out justice without needing a vengeance hard-on. And, let's face it, if these officers are found guilty, they're not going to have an easy time of it in prison.

They were found to have no cause to detain or arrest this man.

The fact that officers sometimes legitimately forcefully take suspects into custody is just as irrelavent as the fact that officers sometimes legitimately use their service weapons when one decides to use his to murder a fleeing suspect.

I don't think asking police to be held to the same standard as the general population should be called bloodlust.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

good info... vii) mayhem: really seems like it is a term that can be interrupted
very subjectively. (not that it applies to the F. Gray case )

It means, essentially, intentionally maiming someone by causing a disfiguring injury (e.g., cutting off an extremity or poking an eye out).

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Calling for someone's head, unintended pun or crass joke? Since the victim almost lost his head....literally.

It's everyone's right to have their day in court, nobody has said otherwise. It's the Police in this matter who did not allow that to happen.

My comments were exactly that.....comments, no pun intended.

 

[Blackjack200]

Didn't expect to hear charges so soon. I'm interested to see how this pans out, but I'd think it will be hard to prove the driver intentionally loaded him into the back of the van and rode roughly to harm freddie. The involuntary manslaughter charges should be easier to prove, but hopefully they can prove satisfactorily that all the cops involved were actually bad cops.

He accidently loaded him into the van without belting him in? He couldn't hear him tumbling around back there?

 

[Subyman]

He accidently loaded him into the van without belting him in? He couldn't hear him tumbling around back there?

The officer doesn't have to prove his innocence, as you are demanding with your questions. They have to have evidence that he did it on purpose. I'm very interested to see what evidence they have. I am speaking legally, not my personal opinion.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The officer doesn't have to prove his innocence, as you are demanding with your questions. They have to have evidence that he did it on purpose. I'm very interested to see what evidence they have. I am speaking legally, not my personal opinion.

Exactly, the DA's office will have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. I would like to see the evidence they have showing the driver did anything to harm Gray.

 

[holden j caufield]

Exactly, the DA's office will have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. I would like to see the evidence they have showing the driver did anything to harm Gray.

Does the police car have cameras and gps. How long has the driver been doing it and if there are any previous cases of people being injured in his transport then he knows and they can provide evidence.

 

[xBiffx]

I get the involuntary manslaughter charges assuming those were the cops who denied medical assistance to Gray. I don't understand the assault charges at all. Unless there is definitive proof that he was injured before he was placed in the van, how can the DA expect those charges to stick?

The charges on the driver appear to be setup for failure. No way to prove half of that.

It's starting to look more and more like mob rule anymore. Do whatever it takes to appease the mob, no matter the outcome.

 

[Blackjack200]

The officer doesn't have to prove his innocence, as you are demanding with your questions. They have to have evidence that he did it on purpose. I'm very interested to see what evidence they have. I am speaking legally, not my personal opinion.

My questions are to illustrate how implausible alternate scenarios seem.

I get the involuntary manslaughter charges assuming those were the cops who denied medical assistance to Gray. I don't understand the assault charges at all. Unless there is definitive proof that he was injured before he was placed in the van, how can the DA expect those charges to stick?

The charges on the driver appear to be setup for failure. No way to prove half of that.

It's starting to look more and more like mob rule anymore. Do whatever it takes to appease the mob, no matter the outcome.

I don't think you need to injure someone to be guilty of assaulting them.

 

[JEDI]

Press conference by prosecutor.

She stated knife found on FG was legal under Md law. Cops have just lost probable cause for arrest.

oh those cops are fvcked.

so what are the races of these 6 officiers?
and how exactly were they involved? sgt? lieutenant?

hm.. the DA is basically saying the van driver is the one that directly caused Gray's death since he's the only one charged w/second-degree murder. 😱
wow