Freaking poker...

[pray4mojo]

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: pray4mojo

Originally posted by: chuckywang
Well, I was dealt pocket deuces in the big blind and everybody else limped in, so I checked to see a free flop.

mistake

You are gonna have a tough time convicing me that raising with 22 out of the big blind against multiple limpers is a long-term profitable move.

Just about every flop misses your hand and you are out of position for the entire hand as well. I understand the want to isolate, but with a hand like 22 - 66 you want as many people in the hand so you have a higher probability of getting paid off if you do hit your hand. If the flop misses you, you can easily dump it.

well i was being semi-serious when i said that. theres lots of other things to consider such as chip stack, your playing style, the behavior of others, and exactly how many people limped in.

 

[dxkj]

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: pray4mojo

Originally posted by: chuckywang
Well, I was dealt pocket deuces in the big blind and everybody else limped in, so I checked to see a free flop.

mistake

You are gonna have a tough time convicing me that raising with 22 out of the big blind against multiple limpers is a long-term profitable move.

Just about every flop misses your hand and you are out of position for the entire hand as well. I understand the want to isolate, but with a hand like 22 - 66 you want as many people in the hand so you have a higher probability of getting paid off if you do hit your hand. If the flop misses you, you can easily dump it.

It was a mistake... he had limpers, is ahead of a lot of hands pre-flop. If he had raised and forced them out, he would have taken blinds... if he had raised and gotten called, he would known what kind of hands they had. Instead he was stuck on the flop, with a dominating hand, uncertain of whether or not the limpers had Ace, garbage, or some suited connectors.

It was a bigger mistake not to raise the pot on the flop, but that's another story.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: pray4mojo

Originally posted by: chuckywang
Well, I was dealt pocket deuces in the big blind and everybody else limped in, so I checked to see a free flop.

mistake

You are gonna have a tough time convicing me that raising with 22 out of the big blind against multiple limpers is a long-term profitable move.

Just about every flop misses your hand and you are out of position for the entire hand as well. I understand the want to isolate, but with a hand like 22 - 66 you want as many people in the hand so you have a higher probability of getting paid off if you do hit your hand. If the flop misses you, you can easily dump it.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE sell your bike and your skateboard and whatever you can steal from your parents and play poker with me. You might be the least poker savvy person in this thread and Chucky knows NOTHING! You know even less.

With 2-2 you want everyone OUT of the hand. Every person at the table is going to have two overcards compared to deuces. That makes a one-on-one hand a race, a 50/50 shot to see if they match one of their overcards to win or if the deuces hold up. It's a wash. But with 4 or more in to see the flop the odds of the deuces winning drops to almost nothing. The odds are that at least one of those players will catch a piece of the flop and get a bigger pair. Pocket deuces are a CRAPPY HAND! They suck. The odds of any single player without a pair preflop flopping a pair is about 42%. In a 5 person showdown 2 and possibly 3 are going to flop a pair and they will ALL BEAT DEUCES.

A bet at that pot before the flop or at any point would have taken it down. Instead OP was a pansy that was afraid to bet and paid for it. Any decent player in the last seat would have won that pot. When facing such obvious weakness as players limping in hoping to see a cheap flop the only strategy that pays off in the long run is to bully them out. You are going to lose big, early, often and consistently if you go into a full table race with a small pair. It's a guaranteed way to go broke.

 

[chuckywang]

^Damn, you're angry...

 

[IAteYourMother]

you're pretty terrible at poker.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Ehhhh terrible. You should've folded seeing the turn. You're retarded.

I once pushed all in with an A7 suited (short stack) and I was called by A3 and JJ. Flop came down TJT. JJ guy got excited and pushed when A3 tried to raise and make it a 1v1 against me. Two more Tens fell on the turn and river and the JJ guy was killed while I somehow survived. Heh. Doyle Brunson writes about a similar situation in a match in Vegas where a 4 of a kind saves someone but kills someone with an initial top hand.

 

[Pepsi90919]

everyone in this thread is wrong

 

[CTrain]

People who are argueing that 2 2 is the 3rd nuts are idiots.

Let me ask you this:
With a flop of A A 2.........Can A A and A 2 exist at the same time ?? fvck NO
So who ever is holding A A or A 2 is the NUTS.
Holding 2 2 is the 2nd NUTS.

 

[sash1]

Originally posted by: CTrain
People who are argueing that 2 2 is the 3rd nut are idiots.

Let me ask you this:
With a flop of A A 2.........Can A A and A 2 exist at the same time ?? fvck NO
So who ever is holding A A or A 2 is the NUT.
Holding 2 2 is the 2nd NUT.

:thumbsup:

if the board is: AA2

and you hold 22

only ONE hand can beat you!

there are only two aces left in the deck, and only one 2

only ONE other person can hold a better hand, whether its AA, or A2. Two people can't have A2, because there's only one duece left. He's right, he has the 2nd nuts. Only one hand was better after the flop.

anyway, back on topic.

not betting big after the flop wasn't a bad idea. if you have a full boat, which probably should have been the best hand at the end, you should sucker bet and try and get more money in the pot. unfortunately both the turn and river screwed you. oh well

 

[DayLaPaul]

Two guys tie in the 100 yard dash, gymnastics, figure skating, whatever, they both are awarded gold medals (the nuts AA and A2 are both equally the nuts). The guy who comes in 3rd, despite having the 2nd best time or score, isn't awarded a silver medal, he gets a bronze medal.

/thread

Edited for spelling

 

[PokerGuy]

Usually, when you sit on a small pair like deuces, you'll want to either throw them away, or raise to push some of the riff-raff out. However, since the OP was in the big blind and there had been no raises in front of him, throwing the hand away was not an option. That leaves raising or checking. The hand is too weak to raise with so many people in the pot (especially online). A raise would have likely been met with at least a couple of callers and the OP would have been out of position post-flop --- a bad situation if you're holding deuces. Simply checking and not raising in this situation is not a bad play. Now after the flop, he should have pushed harder. After the turn it was pretty clear the hand was fairly week, so the OP should have bet to better define his position.

 

[yosuke188]

Originally posted by: DayLaPaul
Two guys tie in the 100 yard dash, gymnastics, figure skating, whatever, they both are awarded gold medals (the nuts AA and A2 are both equally the nuts). The guy who comes in 3rd, despite having the 2nd best time or score, isn't awarded a silver medal, he gets a bronze medal.

/thread

Edited for spelling

Is this poker?

And the whole point of the argument is that AA and A2 can't both exist.

 

[PinmasterJay]

Originally posted by: CTrain
People who are argueing that 2 2 is the 3rd nuts are idiots.

Let me ask you this:
With a flop of A A 2.........Can A A and A 2 exist at the same time ?? fvck NO
So who ever is holding A A or A 2 is the NUTS.
Holding 2 2 is the 2nd NUTS.

Its all on how you define what lower than the NUTS means...

Personally I look at my hand in that situation and know that both AA and A2 are beating me, and to me that makes sense to call it 3rd Nuts

It also makes sense to call it 2nd Nuts since only 1 of those 2 superior hands could possibly exist...

At any rate, I really don't see this hand as misplayed, the hand did get pretty weak however with the turn card and it was seemed to maybe be a bit overvalued.

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
A bet at that pot before the flop or at any point would have taken it down. Instead OP was a pansy that was afraid to bet and paid for it. Any decent player in the last seat would have won that pot. When facing such obvious weakness as players limping in hoping to see a cheap flop the only strategy that pays off in the long run is to bully them out. You are going to lose big, early, often and consistently if you go into a full table race with a small pair. It's a guaranteed way to go broke.

Didn't he say that he did bet the flop and turn??? Or am I missing something?? Obviously if people thought their hand was good after the flop they were probably not going to fold pre-flop either.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: sash1

Originally posted by: CTrain
People who are argueing that 2 2 is the 3rd nut are idiots.

Let me ask you this:
With a flop of A A 2.........Can A A and A 2 exist at the same time ?? fvck NO
So who ever is holding A A or A 2 is the NUT.
Holding 2 2 is the 2nd NUT.

:thumbsup:

if the board is: AA2

and you hold 22

only ONE hand can beat you!

there are only two aces left in the deck, and only one 2

only ONE other person can hold a better hand, whether its AA, or A2. Two people can't have A2, because there's only one duece left. He's right, he has the 2nd nuts. Only one hand was better after the flop.

anyway, back on topic.

not betting big after the flop wasn't a bad idea. if you have a full boat, which probably should have been the best hand at the end, you should sucker bet and try and get more money in the pot. unfortunately both the turn and river screwed you. oh well

You guys don't get it. There are two hands that can beat you. It does not matter that they both can't exist at the same time. What matters is that there is a higher probability someone holds one of two hands that can beat you rather than having only one hand that can beat you. Think about it. You can't make assumptions about cards you have not seen.

 

[PinmasterJay]

Originally posted by: DBL
You guys don't get it. There are two hands that can beat you. It does not matter that they both can't exist at the same time. What matters is that there is a higher probability someone holds one of two hands that can beat you rather than having only one hand that can beat you. Think about it. You can't make assumptions about cards you have not seen.

Good argument here. You have the second best possible hand...but its not as clear as only one hand such as AA is beating you...you are losing to more than one hand

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Usually, when you sit on a small pair like deuces, you'll want to either throw them away, or raise to push some of the riff-raff out. However, since the OP was in the big blind and there had been no raises in front of him, throwing the hand away was not an option. That leaves raising or checking. The hand is too weak to raise with so many people in the pot (especially online). A raise would have likely been met with at least a couple of callers and the OP would have been out of position post-flop --- a bad situation if you're holding deuces. Simply checking and not raising in this situation is not a bad play. Now after the flop, he should have pushed harder. After the turn it was pretty clear the hand was fairly week, so the OP should have bet to better define his position.

Agreed. You also need to state the type of game and stack size. Tourney, Limit, NL? This makes a huge difference.

 

[PinmasterJay]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
After the turn it was pretty clear the hand was fairly week, so the OP should have bet to better define his position.

again, what part about this bolded line isn't clear....he did bet the turn

Originally posted by: chuckywang

Turn comes: another A

Hmm, ok. So my hand isn't that strong anymore. As long as other people don't have any pocket pairs or an A, I'm good. Since nobody raised the flop, I'm still confident in my hand. I bet and we move on..

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: PinmasterJay

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
After the turn it was pretty clear the hand was fairly week, so the OP should have bet to better define his position.

again, what part about this bolded line isn't clear....he did bet the turn

Originally posted by: chuckywang

Turn comes: another A

Hmm, ok. So my hand isn't that strong anymore. As long as other people don't have any pocket pairs or an A, I'm good. Since nobody raised the flop, I'm still confident in my hand. I bet and we move on..

Agreed, he bet the turn, but without further detail we don't know how hard he pushed, what the stack sizes were, what the parameters were etc etc. I'm just saying at that point I would have pushed fairly hard to end the hand right there. Any fairly high card that falls on the river can be big trouble. Instead of a forth A, a K could have falled on on the river and one of the other players migth have paired his kings and taken the hand with aces full of kings. The hand had to end either after the flop or after the turn.

Definitely tough luck, but also misplayed. Easy to sit here and analyze, it's a lot harder when you're actually playing the hand, especially if there was real $ involved.

 

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: pray4mojo

Originally posted by: chuckywang
Well, I was dealt pocket deuces in the big blind and everybody else limped in, so I checked to see a free flop.

mistake

You are gonna have a tough time convicing me that raising with 22 out of the big blind against multiple limpers is a long-term profitable move.

Just about every flop misses your hand and you are out of position for the entire hand as well. I understand the want to isolate, but with a hand like 22 - 66 you want as many people in the hand so you have a higher probability of getting paid off if you do hit your hand. If the flop misses you, you can easily dump it.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE sell your bike and your skateboard and whatever you can steal from your parents and play poker with me. You might be the least poker savvy person in this thread and Chucky knows NOTHING! You know even less.

With 2-2 you want everyone OUT of the hand. Every person at the table is going to have two overcards compared to deuces. That makes a one-on-one hand a race, a 50/50 shot to see if they match one of their overcards to win or if the deuces hold up. It's a wash. But with 4 or more in to see the flop the odds of the deuces winning drops to almost nothing. The odds are that at least one of those players will catch a piece of the flop and get a bigger pair. Pocket deuces are a CRAPPY HAND! They suck. The odds of any single player without a pair preflop flopping a pair is about 42%. In a 5 person showdown 2 and possibly 3 are going to flop a pair and they will ALL BEAT DEUCES.

A bet at that pot before the flop or at any point would have taken it down. Instead OP was a pansy that was afraid to bet and paid for it. Any decent player in the last seat would have won that pot. When facing such obvious weakness as players limping in hoping to see a cheap flop the only strategy that pays off in the long run is to bully them out. You are going to lose big, early, often and consistently if you go into a full table race with a small pair. It's a guaranteed way to go broke.

do you really believe that at a table where everyone limps in, a raise is going to push everyone out? it is much better to see a free flop and wait for your set. a full table race is the ideal situation with a low pair.

 

[PinmasterJay]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Agreed, he bet the turn, but without further detail we don't know how hard he pushed, what the stack sizes were, what the parameters were etc etc. I'm just saying at that point I would have pushed fairly hard to end the hand right there. Any fairly high card that falls on the river can be big trouble. Instead of a forth A, a K could have falled on on the river and one of the other players migth have paired his kings and taken the hand with aces full of kings. The hand had to end either after the flop or after the turn.

Definitely tough luck, but also misplayed. Easy to sit here and analyze, it's a lot harder when you're actually playing the hand, especially if there was real $ involved.

I agree a strong bet is needed after the turn, again more info about how many people are involved here but it sounds like there were a few limpers and no mentioning of anyone dropping out...so he could easily have to dodge like half the deck at the river if he doesn't push some of those hands out

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: chuckywang
Well, I was dealt pocket deuces in the big blind and everybody else limped in, so I checked to see a free flop.

Flop came A A 2.

Well, suck me sideways. I got the 2nd nuts. I put out a little tester bet so that people won't be scared off. Nobody raises, and we move on.

Turn comes: another A

Hmm, ok. So my hand isn't that strong anymore. As long as other people don't have any pocket pairs or an A, I'm good. Since nobody raised the flop, I'm still confident in my hand. I bet and we move on.

River comes: another freaking A

FVCK FVCK FVCK!!! I now have the lowest possible hand. Any other hand will beat mine. I'm already kicking myself for not betting bigger and causing a fold on the flop. Small blind bets, and I have to immediately fold.

Well, there goes that opportunity.

That sucks.

I was bad beat twice in 3 hands to knock me out of the game this weekend.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Cliffs: your ducks got counterfeited. Happens all the time, which is one reason to generally stay away from playing small pairs like 2's or 3's. Even if you get lucky and hit a set, there's a real possibility you could get in big trouble.

Incidentally, while I don't think most online games are rigged, I am convinced that online games tend to have more "unusual" hands than you tend to see in real life casinos or tournaments. For example, I've never seen a royal flush in a real tournament or casiono, but I've seen a few online.

I watched a guy flop a Royal at Monte Carlo in January.

I've seen two guys that had the top and bottom end of a straight flush in the same hand at Binions.

I think the only thing I haven't seen in a live poker room (or online) is quads over quads. I know it happened in the main event this year, but I haven't seen it.

It happens. It's poker. There's no difference between what happens online and what happens in a casino or live game.

I don't know - drawing hands seem to hit a lot more online than they do in person.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: chuckywang

Originally posted by: DayLaPaul
You flopped the 3rd nut not the 2nd. Still, that's poker. How much did you lose even?

It's the 2nd nuts. The nuts are either AA or A2.

He's right. The nuts are AA, the second best hand is A2 and the 3rd best hand is 22.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: chuckywang

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: chuckywang

Originally posted by: DayLaPaul
You flopped the 3rd nut not the 2nd. Still, that's poker. How much did you lose even?

It's the 2nd nuts. The nuts are either AA or A2.

What part of this math are you not getting? The nuts are AA, that's not equivalent to A2

1st: AA
2nd: A2
3rd: 22

You played the hand like a clueless amateur. Your lack of skill is not "just you luck". You got the result you deserved.

You idiot. If someone had an A2, they have the nuts since nobody else can have AA.

True, but you didn't have A2 so there were two hands that you were up against that could have had you beaten - both of which could have accounted for limp allowing you the BB to check.

 

[PinmasterJay]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Cliffs: your ducks got counterfeited. Happens all the time, which is one reason to generally stay away from playing small pairs like 2's or 3's. Even if you get lucky and hit a set, there's a real possibility you could get in big trouble.

Incidentally, while I don't think most online games are rigged, I am convinced that online games tend to have more "unusual" hands than you tend to see in real life casinos or tournaments. For example, I've never seen a royal flush in a real tournament or casiono, but I've seen a few online.

I watched a guy flop a Royal at Monte Carlo in January.

I've seen two guys that had the top and bottom end of a straight flush in the same hand at Binions.

I think the only thing I haven't seen in a live poker room (or online) is quads over quads. I know it happened in the main event this year, but I haven't seen it.

It happens. It's poker. There's no difference between what happens online and what happens in a casino or live game.

I don't know - drawing hands seem to hit a lot more online than they do in person.

Thats because a lot more donkeys chase their drawing hands online, so based on probability more have to hit...also hands are played out much faster so it seems like more bad things happen, its just all relative