Freaking Dems need to grow a pair

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,600
54,540
136
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: eskimospy
I haven't read this whole thread, as this whole topic makes my head explode... but the basic problem I see being discussed here isn't what appears to be particularly relevant. The actual mechanics of being able to evesdrop on international calls that happen to go through the US is something that almost nobody is against.

The problem is again with unchecked power. There is almost zero oversight of this by any outside authority... all the attorney general needs to do is decide that it's good enough and he can evesdrop on any conversation he wants. That's really really bad. Unchecked power... always bad.

If you would have read the thread, you'd know that there is oversight. By the courts AND congress. So no, it isn't an "unchecked power".

That is not correct, there is no meaningful oversight. Most of the judicial and congressional oversight has been shifted to our oh so credible attorney general. The oversight that remains is little more then a rubber stamp.

Please read up on the legislation before spreading misinformation.

WTF are you talking about? This(FISA) HAS ALWAYS has always pretty much been ran with a rubber stamp since it was enacted in 1978(by the Dems)...

Ugh.

The FISA court may have not been very rigorous oversight but it was oversight nontheless. True they granted the vast majority of petitions, but who knows what petitions were never submitted because they wouldn't pass muster? Even that level has now been removed for any persons 'reasonably expected' to be outside the US. Guess who makes that decision... the very people doing the wiretapping, the Justice Department. That undermines the system of checks and balances, along with the protections against unreasonable search of the 4th amendment. This is bad.

And why are you mentioning the Democrats? Who cares?
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
every point i've made about this bill, and the politics behind it is laid out for you kids in this Washington Post article, by a Lefty no less:

Why the Democrats Caved

By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Friday, August 10, 2007; Page A13

Shortly before noon last Saturday, about 20 House Democrats huddled in Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office to decide what to do about a surveillance bill that had been dumped on them by the Senate before it left town.

Many of the Democrats were furious. They believed they had negotiated in good faith with Mike McConnell, the director of national intelligence. They sought to give the Bush administration the authority it needed to intercept communications involving foreign nationals in terrorism investigations while preserving some oversight.




Charles Krauthammer:
The Baghdad Fabulist

E. J. Dionne Jr.:
Why the Democrats Caved

Michael Gerson:
A Date Certain on Darfur

Mark Kirk:
Bankrolling Iran

Eugene Robinson:
Just Another Vacation From Reality


Today's Editorials



Think Tank Town | On Faith | PostGlobal

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But the administration held out for granting McConnell and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales more power while seriously circumscribing the role of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. The Senate's Democratic leadership, lacking the votes to pass a measure more to the House's liking, gave the administration what it wanted.

At one point, according to participants in the Pelosi meeting, the passionate discussion veered toward the idea of standing up to the administration -- even at the risk of handing President Bush a chance to bash Democrats on "national security," as is his wont.

Several members from swing districts -- including Reps. Heath Shuler of North Carolina and Patrick J. Murphy of Pennsylvania -- expressed openness to having Congress stay in town to fight if important constitutional issues were at stake.

But the moment passed. Even some very liberal Democrats worried about the political costs of blocking action before the summer recess. That Saturday night, the House sent the president a bill that, as a disgusted Rep. David Wu (D-Ore.) put it, with just a touch of exaggeration, "makes Alberto Gonzalez the sheriff, the judge and the jury."

Most Democrats opposed the bill, but 41 (including Shuler) voted yes, allowing it to pass. (Murphy remained passionately opposed.) The one Democratic victory: The legislation expires in six months, meaning the debate will resume this fall. But Rep. John F. Tierney (D-Mass.) warned his colleagues that "when you give up your rights under the Constitution, it is not likely you are going to regain them."

The episode was the culmination of a shameful era in which serious issues related to national security and civil liberties were debated in a climate of fear and intimidation, saturated by political calculation and the quest for short-term electoral advantage.
Politically, Republicans won this round in two ways. They got the president the bill he wanted and, as a result, they created absolute fury in the Democratic base. Pelosi has received more than 200,000 e-mails of protest, according to an aide, for letting the bill go forward.

Democrats concede they made an enormous tactical blunder by not dealing with the issue earlier, forcing the question to the fore in the days before the recess. One anxiety hovered over the debate: If a terrorist attack happened and Congress had not given Bush what he wanted, the Democrats would get blamed for a lack of vigilance.
"Could something happen over August?" Rep. Rush D. Holt (D-N.J.) asked in an interview. "Sure it could. What bothered me is that too many Democrats allowed that fear to turn into a demand for some atrocious legislation."

The saga also underscored how constrained congressional Democrats feel because of their tenuous majority in the Senate. Had the Senate sent the House an alternative bill, sponsored by Sens. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.) and John D. Rockefeller (D-W.Va.), the two houses could have put a more limited proposal on the president's desk and challenged him to veto it. But the Levin-Rockefeller proposal failed.

McConnell, in the meantime, played an ambiguous role. Democrats acknowledge that the intelligence director never explicitly agreed to the House leadership's proposal. But their fears that McConnell was not calling the shots were stoked when Democratic leaders tried at one point to reach him by phone. An assistant to McConnell let slip that the intelligence director could not pick up because he was on the line with the White House. It was another sign, said a top Democratic aide, that "the White House was driving the train on this."

The entire display was disgraceful because an issue of such import should not be debated in a political pressure cooker. It's not even clear that new legislation was required; Holt, for one, believes many of the problems with handling interceptions involving foreign nationals are administrative in nature and that beefing up and reorganizing the staff around the FISA court might solve the outstanding problems.

But if legislation was needed, there were many ways to grant necessary authority while preserving real oversight. The Democrats got trapped, and they punted. The Republicans have never met a national security issue they're not willing to politicize. This is no way to run a superpower.

Geez, looks to me like the Democrat's got snookered by the idiot Bush...one more time.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,441
6,683
126
The Republicans deal in negative non issues. Gays are bad. Voting against the way is anti-American. Voting against national security is working for Osama. Taxes are evil. Funding welfare moms is evil. Etc etc etc. And you can win elections by playing to what is worst in our natures. The Republicans have made an art of this and have scared the shit out of Democrats everywhere because they are cowards who want to be re-elected. So yes, that idiot Bush snookered them again but it is the Republican mastery of this technique that has destroyed our political system. They are craven cunning bastard whores who will dip into the lowest gutter to win. It is they who created this race to the bottom. They are the f@cking traitors who have ruined our nation and replaced politics with sh!t.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

Geez, looks to me like the Democrat's got snookered by the idiot Bush...one more time.

It reads as if you are saying this with the same stupid, annoying, completely out of place, smug attitude that Bush displays when he is talking to the American people.

It sounds as if you are glad that the right wins because the Democrats weren't willing to call Bush's bluff that something "might" happen while Congress was on its month long recess.

Yeah, our team wins!!!

Meanwhile, America loses even more ground in the battle to retain our Constitutional rights.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: OrByte
when a single party almost unanimously votes in favor of such a bill you seriously have to ask the question if they are all sharing one brain.

I mean seriously, how in the hell can anyone condone such strange lockstep behavior?

at least the Dems illustrate how they are as splintered as America when it comes to thinking these very serious issues through. I for one DO see the benefit of these types of laws, but am weary about the possibility of encroachments on individual rights. Shouldn't we all be at least willing to ask these questions? It seems that when House Rs all vote in such a unanimous fashion it doesn't look like a lot of thought is taking place...but i dunoo..

Are the Rs zombies? it is really spooky.

Gee, Republicans not thinking things through and going with the herd...I've got to say I'm pretty shocked by that! :roll:

Come on, like we shouldn't have seen this coming from a mile away. Have the Republicans ever done or said anything to make you think they take the individual, thoughtful approach to ANY issue? While the difference in success between liberal and conservative talk radio probably has a lot of explanations, I think chief among them would be the difficulty of finding millions of liberals who are all thinking exactly the same thing.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but every time I start to think so, I go back to the fact that while I have heard a lot of liberals express the same split viewpoint you just did, I have NEVER heard ANY Republicans express the least bit of concern about the impact expanded government power has on civil liberties. When civil liberties are mentioned in conservative writings and speeches, which is rarely, it is always explained away as a passive aggressive trick liberals use to fight against "being strong on terrorism". People can disagree on the balance between liberty and security, and that's fine, but I'm a little disturbed when one side doesn't seem to believe there IS another issue in play besides security.

Bwuhahaha :laugh:

Everybody who's NOT self-delusional know the Dems passed this thing with the Repubs. They hold the committees etc.

They put on a "show" of oppostition to legislation in two Houses they CONTROL to feed the sheeple's illusion and re-election back home easier. It's just not a lot of fun to falsely wail against the *opposition* about *abuses* of 4th Amendment and then have to pass a Bill that you know might make you look hypocritical.

That kinda hypocrisy and deceit takes some real *team work*. Don't kid yourselves.

Fern
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
craven cunning bastard whores

WOW!!

and to think Bush has progressed from f***g idiot to that!

This article lays out what i said happened. this bill could not ever have come to a vote on the floor of the house or the senate without the consent of the Democrat leadership. The bill was passed because the Democrats fear a domestic terrorist attack might happen, and they could (rightly) be held responsible. They are more concerned about re-election, than any principled, defendable position about individual liberties.

This is exactly what i said several days ago.

AND

they gave expanded powers to the Attorney General they have spent the last several months trying to remove from office!!

yep, tough, principled, working for you...the Democrat Party.

I was disgusted with the Republican's backing that bizarre "immigration reform bill", and i would have expected the lefties to be disgusted with the Democrats for backing this bill....but so far, i'm not seeing that...
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,393
9,593
136
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I was disgusted with the Republican's backing that bizarre "immigration reform bill", and i would have expected the lefties to be disgusted with the Democrats for backing this bill....but so far, i'm not seeing that...

The immigration bill was disgusting, but I didn't blame the Dems for the Republican's part of it. It's sad, too sad to be hilarious, that the guys here blame Republicans for the Dem's part in the wiretapping bill.

Guess some of us believe in ?our heroes? more than others.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I was disgusted with the Republican's backing that bizarre "immigration reform bill", and i would have expected the lefties to be disgusted with the Democrats for backing this bill....but so far, i'm not seeing that...

The immigration bill was disgusting, but I didn't blame the Dems for the Republican's part of it. It's sad, too sad to be hilarious, that the guys here blame Republicans for the Dem's part in the wiretapping bill.

Guess some of us believe in ?our heroes? more than others.

As evident from the title of this tread....I'm not included with those that can't see their "heroes" for what they are....part of the problem and not the solution. ;)

I know that there are others that are also blaming the Dems for their part in this. I think that for some, the argument has been that the Dems are not as bad as the Repubs because they break rank more frequently. Not really the strongest position to hold, but a position nonetheless.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: OrByte
when a single party almost unanimously votes in favor of such a bill you seriously have to ask the question if they are all sharing one brain.

I mean seriously, how in the hell can anyone condone such strange lockstep behavior?

at least the Dems illustrate how they are as splintered as America when it comes to thinking these very serious issues through. I for one DO see the benefit of these types of laws, but am weary about the possibility of encroachments on individual rights. Shouldn't we all be at least willing to ask these questions? It seems that when House Rs all vote in such a unanimous fashion it doesn't look like a lot of thought is taking place...but i dunoo..

Are the Rs zombies? it is really spooky.

Gee, Republicans not thinking things through and going with the herd...I've got to say I'm pretty shocked by that! :roll:

Come on, like we shouldn't have seen this coming from a mile away. Have the Republicans ever done or said anything to make you think they take the individual, thoughtful approach to ANY issue? While the difference in success between liberal and conservative talk radio probably has a lot of explanations, I think chief among them would be the difficulty of finding millions of liberals who are all thinking exactly the same thing.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but every time I start to think so, I go back to the fact that while I have heard a lot of liberals express the same split viewpoint you just did, I have NEVER heard ANY Republicans express the least bit of concern about the impact expanded government power has on civil liberties. When civil liberties are mentioned in conservative writings and speeches, which is rarely, it is always explained away as a passive aggressive trick liberals use to fight against "being strong on terrorism". People can disagree on the balance between liberty and security, and that's fine, but I'm a little disturbed when one side doesn't seem to believe there IS another issue in play besides security.

Bwuhahaha :laugh:

Everybody who's NOT self-delusional know the Dems passed this thing with the Repubs. They hold the committees etc.

They put on a "show" of oppostition to legislation in two Houses they CONTROL to feed the sheeple's illusion and re-election back home easier. It's just not a lot of fun to falsely wail against the *opposition* about *abuses* of 4th Amendment and then have to pass a Bill that you know might make you look hypocritical.

That kinda hypocrisy and deceit takes some real *team work*. Don't kid yourselves.

Fern

I'm not saying the Democrats don't share some of the blame here, but the fact is that having the vast majority of your members vote against the bill does not seem like a "show of opposition" to me. The Democrats were in a bad political situation, mostly due to their bungling of the issue in the first place, and the Republican party's ability to capitalize on those kind of bungles.

But mostly it was that the Democrats are hard to herd while the Republicans are much easier. There is no Democratic advantage here, your Washington Times-ish spin aside. They look "weak on security" to the folks who care because most of them voted against the bill, and because most Democrats are speaking out strongly against it, while they look "weak on liberty" to those who care about THAT because they had the majority and they still let the bill pass. So the simplest explanation is that Dems vote as individuals, while Republicans vote as a group...this would hardly be the first time that happened.

But speaking of sheeple, just why IS it that I've NEVER heard a conservative express the slightest bit of concern about the trade-off between security and liberty? Are you people all so terrified that you'll do whatever it takes to feel safe?
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
thought this article might add something to the discussion...

Reported Drop in Surveillance Spurred a Law

By ERIC LICHTBLAU, JAMES RISEN and MARK MAZZETTI
Published: August 11, 2007

WASHINGTON, Aug. 10 ? At a closed-door briefing in mid-July, senior intelligence officials startled lawmakers with some troubling news. American eavesdroppers were collecting just 25 percent of the foreign-based communications they had been receiving a few months earlier.

Congress needed to act quickly, intelligence officials said, to repair a dangerous situation.

Some lawmakers were alarmed. Others, jaded by past intelligence warnings, were skeptical.

The report helped set off a furious legislative rush last week that, improbably, broadened the administration?s authority to wiretap terrorism suspects without court oversight.

It was a surprising victory for the politically weakened White House on an issue that had plodded along in Congress for months without a clear sign of urgency or resolution. A flurry of talk in the last three weeks on intelligence gaps, heightened concern over terrorist attacks, burdensome court rulings and Congress?s recess helped turn the debate from a slow boil to a fever pitch.

For months, Democrats had refused to give the administration new wiretapping powers until the White House agreed to turn over documents about the National Security Agency program to eavesdrop on some Americans? international communications without warrants.

The White House refused to back down, even after Congressional subpoenas were issued. The administration ultimately attracted the support it needed to amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act from moderate Democrats who felt pressed to act before the recess.

For the White House and its Republican allies, the decision by the Democratic-controlled Congress to act quickly was critical to safeguarding the country this summer as intelligence officials spoke of increasing ?chatter? among Qaeda suspects.

To many Democrats who opposed the action, it was a reflection of fear mongering by the White House, and political capitulation by some fellow Democrats.

?There was an intentional manipulation of the facts to get this legislation through,? said Senator Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, a Democrat on the Intelligence Committee who voted against the plan.

The White House, Mr. Feingold said Friday in an interview, ?has identified the one major remaining weakness in the Democratic Party, and that?s its unwillingness to stand up to the administration when it?s making a power grab regarding terrorism and national security.?

?They have figured out that all they have to do is start talking about an imminent terrorist threat, back it up against a Congressional recess, and they know the Democrats will cave,? he added.

Representative Jane Harman, Democrat of California, said the White House ?very skillfully played the fear card.?

?With the chatter up in August,? Ms. Harman said, ?the issue of FISA reform got traction. Then they ran out the clock.?

A White House official said the push was driven by genuine concerns by Mike McConnell, director of national intelligence, for the government?s ability to conduct terrorist surveillance.

?There was no real argument on the need for a fix? between Democrats and Republicans, the White House official said. ?He?s a straight shooter.?

The prelude to approval of the plan occurred in January, when the administration agreed to put the wiretapping program under the oversight of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. The court is charged with guarding against governmental spying abuses. Officials say one judge issued a ruling in January that allowed the administration to continue the program under the court?s supervision.

A ruling a month or two later ? the judge who made it and its exact timing are not clear ? restricted the government?s ability to intercept foreign-to-foreign communications passing through telecommunication ?switches? on American soil.

The security agency was newly required to seek warrants to monitor at least some of those phone calls and e-mail messages. As a result, the ability to intercept foreign-based communications ?kept getting ratcheted down,? said a senior intelligence official who insisted on anonymity because the account involved classified material. ? We were to a point where we were not effectively operating.?

Mr. McConnell, lead negotiator for the administration in lobbying for the bill, said in an interview that the court?s restrictions had made his job much more difficult.

?It was crazy, because I?m sitting here signing out warrants on known Al Qaeda operatives that are killing Americans, doing foreign communications,? he said. ?And the only reason I?m signing that warrant is because it touches the U.S. communications infrastructure. That?s what we fixed.?

In April, Mr. McConnell began talking with lawmakers in classified meetings about that ?intelligence gap? and alluded to it publicly, too. At the time, the administration proposed sweeping measures to ?modernize? the foreign surveillance law, a much broader proposal in some respects than what Congress approved.

The proposal was considered dead on arrival by some Democrats, who argued that the administration was overreaching and asking Congress to legislate blindly without access to documents on the legal history and operations of the program.

Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales? s political problems, including questions about truthfulness in testimony on the eavesdropping, helped stall any action, in part because the administration wanted him to have oversight of the broadened wiretapping authorities.

When the administration proposed its revisions in April, ?everyone kind of laughed at us,? said a Justice Department official who insisted on anonymity. ?We got bludgeoned. People just said: ?Are you kidding? We?re not even going to consider it.? ?

The administration?s classified briefings on the ?intelligence gap? grew more urgent. In May, members of the Intelligence Committees began hearing about specific cases in which eavesdroppers could not intercept certain communications, said Representative Heather A. Wilson, Republican of New Mexico.

By June and early July, Ms. Wilson said Friday in an interview, the scope of what intelligence officials were missing had grown ?frighteningly large.?

?I begged my colleagues to act,? she said. ?They did nothing for six weeks. They weren?t going to act unless they were forced to. So we started raising the pressure.?

Some Democrats reacted skeptically to the closed-door briefings by Mr. McConnell and other intelligence officials. Intelligence Committee members acknowledged that they learned in May that the secret court ruling had caused some problems, but it was not until last month that the administration reported the gaps.

?They changed that story,? a Democratic Congressional aide said, amid talk about a backlog in warrant applications.

By mid-July, Mr. McConnell?s briefings, coupled with the release of a new National Intelligence Estimate on terrorism, set the tone for a series of talks between the White House and Mr. McConnell?s office and Democratic Congressional leaders.

After learning of the intelligence problems, Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, Democrat of West Virginia and chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, contacted the White House to discuss repairing them. On July 12, the White House chief of staff, Joshua B. Bolten, discussed the problem with the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, a senior White House official said.

At first, some Democratic leaders favored amending the surveillance law in September. Mr. McConnell pressed for an immediate repair.

Two weeks later, the administration lowered its sights, slimming its original 66-page proposal to 11 pages and eliminating some of the controversial plans like broad immunity from lawsuits for telecommunications companies that aided eavesdropping.

Congressional Democrats effectively agreed to try to forge a narrow bill to address the foreign problem that Mr. McConnell identified. But they were at odds over a critical detail, the court oversight.

Democratic leaders did not demand that the security agency seek individual court warrants for eavesdropping. But they did want the court to review and approve the agency procedures soon after surveillance began.

The administration, however, wanted the attorney general and the director of national intelligence to approve the surveillance, with the court weighing in just to certify that no abuses occurred, and only long after the surveillance had been conducted.

The talks intensified in the days before the recess last weekend, highlighted by proposals and counterproposals in calls between Mr. McConnell and the Democratic leadership.

By Aug. 2, the two sides seemed relatively close to a deal. Mr. McConnell had agreed to some increased role for the secret court, a step that the administration considered a major concession, the White House and Congressional leaders said.

But that night, the talks broke down. With time running out, the Senate approved a Republican bill that omitted the stronger court oversight. The next day, the House passed the bill.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/washington/11nsa.html
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Meanwhile, America loses even more ground in the battle to retain our Constitutional rights.

Just for kicks, could you elaborate on what Constitutional rights you've lost and been deprived of?
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
I know that there are others that are also blaming the Dems for their part in this. I think that for some, the argument has been that the Dems are not as bad as the Repubs because they break rank more frequently. Not really the strongest position to hold, but a position nonetheless.

you lefties deserve what you have in the Democrat party....with "positions" like that.

as for

why IS it that I've NEVER heard a conservative express the slightest bit of concern about the trade-off between security and liberty? Are you people all so terrified that you'll do whatever it takes to feel safe?
what "liberty" have i given up?
if your dead (as in killed by a terrorist attack that could have been stopped) you have no liberty at all.

I just don't get it...there is NO privacy on the internet. your messages go through dozens of computers, none of which is particularly "secure", your personal information is splashed all over facebook, myspace, and who knows where else, you GIVE AWAY personal information constantly (to post on P&N forum, to enter the CircuitCity "giveaway", every time you buy something on ;line, etc). but you want to prohibit the Feds from accessing information, in many cases available to lots of other folks, because they are "evil".

I remember the screams about "data mining" by the Feds FROM PUBLICALLY AVAILABLE DATABASES trying to indentify suspicious patterns of financial activity, and news events...and this was criticised.

It's just not logical, its emotional. It doesn't make any sense.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Meanwhile, America loses even more ground in the battle to retain our Constitutional rights.

Just for kicks, could you elaborate on what Constitutional rights you've lost and been deprived of?

Sure. How about I even provide proof:

The FBI has conducted clandestine surveillance on some U.S. residents for as long as 18 months at a time without proper paperwork or oversight, according to previously classified documents to be released today.

Records turned over as part of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit also indicate that the FBI has investigated hundreds of potential violations related to its use of secret surveillance operations, which have been stepped up dramatically since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks but are largely hidden from public view.

In one case, FBI agents kept an unidentified target under surveillance for at least five years -- including more than 15 months without notifying Justice Department lawyers after the subject had moved from New York to Detroit. An FBI investigation concluded that the delay was a violation of Justice guidelines and prevented the department "from exercising its responsibility for oversight and approval of an ongoing foreign counterintelligence investigation of a U.S. person."

In other cases, agents obtained e-mails after a warrant expired, seized bank records without proper authority and conducted an improper "unconsented physical search," according to the documents.

Although heavily censored, the documents provide a rare glimpse into the world of domestic spying, which is governed by a secret court and overseen by a presidential board that does not publicize its deliberations. The records are also emerging as the House and Senate battle over whether to put new restrictions on the controversial USA Patriot Act, which made it easier for the government to conduct secret searches and surveillance but has come under attack from civil liberties groups.

The records were provided to The Washington Post by the Electronic Privacy Information Center, an advocacy group that has sued the Justice Department for records relating to the Patriot Act.

David Sobel, EPIC's general counsel, said the new documents raise questions about the extent of possible misconduct in counterintelligence investigations and underscore the need for greater congressional oversight of clandestine surveillance within the United States.

"We're seeing what might be the tip of the iceberg at the FBI and across the intelligence community," Sobel said. "It indicates that the existing mechanisms do not appear adequate to prevent abuses or to ensure the public that abuses that are identified are treated seriously and remedied."

FBI officials disagreed, saying that none of the cases have involved major violations and most amount to administrative errors. The officials also said that any information obtained from improper searches or eavesdropping is quarantined and eventually destroyed.

"Every investigator wants to make sure that their investigation is handled appropriately, because they're not going to be allowed to keep information that they didn't have the proper authority to obtain," said one senior FBI official, who declined to be identified by name because of the ongoing litigation. "But that is a relatively uncommon occurrence. The vast majority of the potential [violations] reported have to do with administrative timelines and time frames for renewing orders."

The documents provided to EPIC focus on 13 cases from 2002 to 2004 that were referred to the Intelligence Oversight Board, an arm of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board that is charged with examining violations of the laws and directives governing clandestine surveillance. Case numbers on the documents indicate that a minimum of 287 potential violations were identified by the FBI during those three years, but the actual number is certainly higher because the records are incomplete.

FBI officials declined to say how many alleged violations they have identified or how many were found to be serious enough to refer to the oversight board.

Catherine Lotrionte, the presidential board's counsel, said most of its work is classified and covered by executive privilege. The board's investigations range from "technical violations to more substantive violations of statutes or executive orders," Lotrionte said.

Most such cases involve powers granted under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which governs the use of secret warrants, wiretaps and other methods as part of investigations of agents of foreign powers or terrorist groups. The threshold for such surveillance is lower than for traditional criminal warrants. More than 1,700 new cases were opened by the court last year, according to an administration report to Congress.

In several of the cases outlined in the documents released to EPIC, FBI agents failed to file annual updates on ongoing surveillance, which are required by Justice Department guidelines and presidential directives, and which allow Justice lawyers to monitor the progress of a case. Others included a violation of bank privacy statutes and an improper physical search, though the details of the transgressions are edited out. At least two others involve e-mails that were improperly collected after the authority to do so had expired.

Some of the case details provide a rare peek into the world of FBI counterintelligence. In 2002, for example, the Pittsburgh field office opened a preliminary inquiry on a person to "determine his/her suitability as an asset for foreign counterintelligence matters" -- in other words, to become an informant. The violation occurred when the agent failed to extend the inquiry while maintaining contact with the potential asset, the documents show.

The FBI general counsel's office oversees investigations of alleged misconduct in counterintelligence probes, deciding whether the violation is serious enough to be reported to the oversight board and to personnel departments within Justice and the FBI. The senior FBI official said those cases not referred to the oversight board generally involve missed deadlines of 30 days or fewer with no potential infringement of the civil rights of U.S. persons, who are defined as either citizens or legal U.S. resident aliens.

"The FBI and the people who work in the FBI are very cognizant of the fact that people are watching us to make sure we're doing the right thing," the senior FBI official said. "We also want to do the right thing. We have set up procedures to do the right thing."

But in a letter to be sent today to the Senate Judiciary Committee, Sobel and other EPIC officials argue that the documents show how little Congress and the public know about the use of clandestine surveillance by the FBI and other agencies. The group advocates legislation requiring the attorney general to report violations to the Senate.

The documents, EPIC writes, "suggest that there may be at least thirteen instances of unlawful intelligence investigations that were never disclosed to Congress."

Unless you are going to insanely argue that these HUNDREDS of cases are merely the exception and the government has put thorough checks in place? Oh, that's right, they REMOVED the checks instead of making them stronger.

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
^ as long as it's 'the other guy' they don't give a shit.


How's that old saying go...
"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out..."


Oh yeah, I noticed our good buddy Pabster recently logged on and replied to a half dozen threads but left this one alone. I guess he wasn't kidding when he asked RightIsWrong to elaborate "just for kicks".
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I know that there are others that are also blaming the Dems for their part in this. I think that for some, the argument has been that the Dems are not as bad as the Repubs because they break rank more frequently. Not really the strongest position to hold, but a position nonetheless.

you lefties deserve what you have in the Democrat party....with "positions" like that.

as for

why IS it that I've NEVER heard a conservative express the slightest bit of concern about the trade-off between security and liberty? Are you people all so terrified that you'll do whatever it takes to feel safe?
what "liberty" have i given up?
if your dead (as in killed by a terrorist attack that could have been stopped) you have no liberty at all.

I just don't get it...there is NO privacy on the internet. your messages go through dozens of computers, none of which is particularly "secure", your personal information is splashed all over facebook, myspace, and who knows where else, you GIVE AWAY personal information constantly (to post on P&N forum, to enter the CircuitCity "giveaway", every time you buy something on ;line, etc). but you want to prohibit the Feds from accessing information, in many cases available to lots of other folks, because they are "evil".

I remember the screams about "data mining" by the Feds FROM PUBLICALLY AVAILABLE DATABASES trying to indentify suspicious patterns of financial activity, and news events...and this was criticised.

It's just not logical, its emotional. It doesn't make any sense.

Come on, you're stupid, but you're not stupid, you know what I'm saying? While we do a lot of things without the expectation of privacy, we are CHOOSING to do those things, fully realizing that we're losing privacy to do so. People put lots of information on facebook, but if they don't want to, they don't have to. All the store "club cards" are voluntary as well, positing on P&N isn't a mandatory activity, neither is buying something online. Facebook, AT, and Amazon don't go after you to take your personal information, you GIVE IT TO THEM, or not, if you don't want to. If you can show me where I can opt out of our newfound police state, I'll admit that your comparison is the least bit valid.

As far as WHY I would care, maybe you should study your history a little better. Go ahead, open that history book you got in 10th grade...open it to just about any page, and you'll see lots of reasons why just blindly trusting the government is a stupid idea. All through history, governments have been way more likely to deprive you of your liberty than any outside force, and terrorism is a particularly pathetic in that regard. And this isn't something that happens just in other countries, Japanese-Americans, black civil rights leaders and "suspected communists" might disagree with the idea that the government should be blindly trusted. Our founding fathers weren't a bunch of pot smoking hippies, they set up our government with the limitations it has because they had experienced first hand why unlimited government power was a bad idea...and why the government shouldn't be able to invade your privacy without a good reason, and they said so right in the constitution. And somehow I don't think they just accidentally left off the phrase at the end saying "...unless heartsurgeon is scared of terrorists hiding under his bed".
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
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the problem i have is that the lefties have a absoultely black and white view of Bush and everything the goverment does. anything Bush does is bad, anything the Republicans vote for is bad..and a surveillance bill of any sort is bad...

well that's just plain nonsense, and you know it.

apparently, it's so nonsensical, that even the Democrats have voted for the very bill, they voiced so much opposition to. Indeed, their leadership promoted this bill, by allowing it to ever reach the floor of the House and the Senate.

yes, i agree there should be safeguards, and oversight, but i also think it's the proper role of the goverment to protect us from foreign powers that seek to harm us, and certainly, reviewing internet and cellphone and telephone transmissions ought to be part of that, and it is.

by the way, the same reasons the Democrats voted to extend and expand the bill, will be the very same reasons they extend/expand it angain in 6 months, and probably forever. This bill will never be repealed, you can be completely assured of that, because whoever does away with it, will get all the blame for the next attack, which OBL and his minions are striving to accomplish.