France to form new government

[spacejamz]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/25/world/europe/france-politics/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Guess their 75% tax on the rich hasn't provided the benefits they projected yet...

 

[Jhhnn]

Guess you have no idea what you're talking about-

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/so...urg-urges-alternative-german-austerity-307937

Surprise! It's about a stagnant economy & crippling austerity.

 

[fskimospy]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/25/world/europe/france-politics/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Guess their 75% tax on the rich hasn't provided the benefits they projected yet...

It's true, the French finally seem prepared to abandon austerity after years of failure. Thank god, huh?

 

[Exterous]

It's true, the French finally seem prepared to abandon austerity after years of failure. Thank god, huh?

I'm not sure purging those from the government who were vocal about ending austerity will hasten that movement. I doubt any of that will happen while Hollande is in office.

I haven't been following the French that closely but it looks like both sides are screwing Hollande over as he doesn't have the strength to get things passed anymore. He angered businesses in 2012 and then angered many of his supporters by appointing Valls. His lower\middle class tax breaks got blocked and the business tax breaks he promised 18 months ago still haven't been passed\taken affect.

So the increases in taxes back in 2012 did nothing to help the French but both sides are blocking reductions in taxes and there are still sharp divisions over whether direct household funding or decreased business taxes\labor reform ('adapting' Sunday ban, changing 35 hour work week) would be better

 

[spacejamz]

Guess you have no idea what you're talking about-

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/so...urg-urges-alternative-german-austerity-307937

Surprise! It's about a stagnant economy & crippling austerity.

So what was raising the taxes on the rich supposed to fix again???

 

[Sattern]

I guess i'll wait for this to show up on another news channel other than CNN, it's good the people won't be taxed at such bazaar rates.

That's simply ridiculous.

 

[fskimospy]

So what was raising the taxes on the rich supposed to fix again???

It was supposed to help close the budget deficit, which presumably you support. Unfortunately, austerity in a depression like this is self-defeating, so efforts to close the deficit have badly damaged the economy.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not sure purging those from the government who were vocal about ending austerity will hasten that movement. I doubt any of that will happen while Hollande is in office.

I haven't been following the French that closely but it looks like both sides are screwing Hollande over as he doesn't have the strength to get things passed anymore. He angered businesses in 2012 and then angered many of his supporters by appointing Valls. His lower\middle class tax breaks got blocked and the business tax breaks he promised 18 months ago still haven't been passed\taken affect.

So the increases in taxes back in 2012 did nothing to help the French but both sides are blocking reductions in taxes and there are still sharp divisions over whether direct household funding or decreased business taxes\labor reform ('adapting' Sunday ban, changing 35 hour work week) would be better

We'll see, but Hollande has already said a new direction away from austerity is needed. I'm hopeful for a return to more sane fiscal policy.

 

[dphantom]

It was supposed to help close the budget deficit, which presumably you support. Unfortunately, austerity in a depression like this is self-defeating, so efforts to close the deficit have badly damaged the economy.

Why would that be? Germany appears to be doing fine except for the last quarter. Great Britain is improving and doing quite well in respect to the rest of the Eurozone. In fact, the Eurozone as a whole is growing albeit very slowly compared to US rates.

I do not see any depression at all though Italy is a basket case.

 

[Jaskalas]

We'll see, but Hollande has already said a new direction away from austerity is needed. I'm hopeful for a return to more sane fiscal policy.

"Sane fiscal policy" for your side is speeding towards a cliff and praying you don't slide off. You think the only logical step is to push forward but there lay dangers there as well.

Fiscal conservatives wonder how the Spenders ever hope to pay the bills, when your answer is ever-more.

 

[fskimospy]

Why would that be? Germany appears to be doing fine except for the last quarter. Great Britain is improving and doing quite well in respect to the rest of the Eurozone. In fact, the Eurozone as a whole is growing albeit very slowly compared to US rates.

I do not see any depression at all though Italy is a basket case.

Euro zone growth has been flat to negative for quite awhile now. Currently, and this is not an exaggeration, this crisis has seen worse economic performance than the Great Depression for the euro zone.

So if this isn't a depression, nothing is.

 

[fskimospy]

"Sane fiscal policy" for your side is speeding towards a cliff and praying you don't slide off. You think the only logical step is to push forward but there lay dangers there as well.

Fiscal conservatives wonder how the Spenders ever hope to pay the bills, when your answer is ever-more.

I simply support the policies that not only extensive economic research but real life outcomes have shown to work the best. If you would like to use inferior policies I feel like you should have to explain why you would deliberately do that.

 

[dphantom]

Euro zone growth has been flat to negative for quite awhile now. Currently, and this is not an exaggeration, this crisis has seen worse economic performance than the Great Depression for the euro zone.

So if this isn't a depression, nothing is.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth

 

[fskimospy]

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth

Exactly. I rest my case.

 

[dphantom]

Exactly. I rest my case.

so the depression again is where? I can agree there is a depression in Greece but as for the Eurozone, not by any stretch of the definition.

 

[Jaskalas]

I simply support the policies that not only extensive economic research but real life outcomes have shown to work the best. If you would like to use inferior policies I feel like you should have to explain why you would deliberately do that.

If I knew Spending was the solution to economic problems, and worked every time, there would be no debate, no need to question. We both know there's no magic bullet and our quandary leaves us scratching for answers.

What I believe is that you can demonstrate how it works, temporarally. Yet other factors come into play which must be addressed or mitigated. Perhaps deficits are derived from those, and Stimulus is the one good answer for downturns. It could be Conservatives are chasing the wrong dragon here, but if that's the case we need to demonstrate it. Those other factors, which harm the economy, need to be listed and quantified for simple folks.

There's a way to turn around the opposition you face, but it's going to require a great deal of understanding of the economy and simple translation for us to follow. Think of it as a public information / education campaign.

Our opposition begins by simply thinking you've got to pull back and not let deficits get out of control. You can demonstrate that borrowed money is good for the economy, but how do you manage this borrowing in the long run?

 

[fskimospy]

so the depression again is where? I can agree there is a depression in Greece but as for the Eurozone, not by any stretch of the definition.

The depression is right here:

This chart shows that the Eurozone's economic performance since the financial crash has been worse than it was in the 1930's.

 

[Knowing]

I see that France was closing their deficit spending, which wikipedia says was constant since 1981.
I also see that France was #1 in social spending in 2011. Also, this editorial from NYT.

So where was the austerity?

 

[fskimospy]

I see that France was closing their deficit spending, which wikipedia says was constant since 1981.
I also see that France was #1 in social spending in 2011. Also, this editorial from NYT.

So where was the austerity?

France decreased their budget deficit from 7.5% of GDP to 4.2% of GDP despite a stagnant or even shrinking economy.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-budget

So, uhmm... right there.

 

[fskimospy]

If I knew Spending was the solution to economic problems, and worked every time, there would be no debate, no need to question. We both know there's no magic bullet and our quandary leaves us scratching for answers.

What I believe is that you can demonstrate how it works, temporarally. Yet other factors come into play which must be addressed or mitigated. Perhaps deficits are derived from those, and Stimulus is the one good answer for downturns. It could be Conservatives are chasing the wrong dragon here, but if that's the case we need to demonstrate it. Those other factors, which harm the economy, need to be listed and quantified for simple folks.

There's a way to turn around the opposition you face, but it's going to require a great deal of understanding of the economy and simple translation for us to follow. Think of it as a public information / education campaign.

Our opposition begins by simply thinking you've got to pull back and not let deficits get out of control. You can demonstrate that borrowed money is good for the economy, but how do you manage this borrowing in the long run?

The US has had a higher debt/GDP ratio in the past than we do now. How much more evidence do you need at this point? I mean we're more than a half decade in at this point.

 

[dphantom]

The depression is right here:

This chart shows that the Eurozone's economic performance since the financial crash has been worse than it was in the 1930's.

Performance has been poor because of the policies of Italy, Spain and France have not been conducive to growth. If they followed Germany's model, they would be doing better.

And it still is not a depression in any classical sense. Growth continues even though it is very slow. A reporter's opinion is one thing, I will stick with accepted definitions - and there are several - that describe a true depression.

 

[Knowing]

France decreased their budget deficit from 7.5% of GDP to 4.2% of GDP despite a stagnant or even shrinking economy.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/government-budget

So, uhmm... right there.

So any decrease in budget deficits is austerity? I thought austerity was supposed to be inhumane slashing of entitlement budgets in order to punish the poor.

If that's all true then what was all the press about the socialist leadership of France rejecting austerity for the last several years?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/22/france-sarkozy-idUSLM32943320090622

PARIS, June 22 (Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy ruled out tax rises and austerity measures to fight the economic crisis and said he would borrow more to finance investment despite a ballooning budget deficit.
"I will not conduct an austerity policy because it has always failed in the past," he told a joint session of both houses of parliament on Monday.

http://articles.economictimes.india...tirement-age-french-president-nicolas-sarkozy

PARIS: French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Monday rejected the claim that his government was adopting austerity measures after it announced a three-year spending freeze.
"We have a clear objective, which is to clean up our public finances," Sarkozy told a meeting of union and business leaders at the Elysee palace.

"That was our objective before the financial crisis and it remains so. We have not changed tack. We are maintaining our strategy."

http://world.time.com/2011/08/24/french-austerity-measures-also-cut-touted-sarkozy-reforms/
(suddenly austerity, in 2012)

The austerity measures announced Wednesday by Prime Minister François Fillon in large part involved rolling back of some of the last Sarkozy reforms that hadn’t been over-turned or quietly ditched before as inefficient, ill-conceived, or financially untenable in an increasingly tight economy.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world-jan-june12-euroelection1_05-07/

Sarkozy, Austerity Rejected by French Voters...
FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, French president-elect (through translator): Finally, austerity could no longer be a fate. You are much more than a people who want change. You are already a part of a movement that is rising across all of Europe and maybe the world.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...y-in-shift-of-power-to-french-socialists.html

“Europe is watching us,” he told supporters in Tulle, France, last night after he won about 52 percent of the vote. “Austerity isn’t inevitable. My mission now is to give European construction a growth dimension.”

http://www.economist.com/news/europ...tention-his-new-economic-policy-not-women-his

January 14th, when President François Hollande, a Socialist, upturned the prevailing doctrine on the French left and promised cuts in both public spending and taxes, in order to help businesses create jobs and revive growth.

So when was the socialist government of France pushing austerity when they said they weren't pushing austerity because austerity that Sarkozy said he wasn't doing until he was didn't work?

 

[fskimospy]

Performance has been poor because of the policies of Italy, Spain and France have not been conducive to growth. If they followed Germany's model, they would be doing better.

I would agree with you on the first part. Italy, Spain, and France have been engaging in severe austerity which has badly damaged their economies. The strange thing about your statement is that they WERE following Germany's recommendations, that's been the whole problem.

And it still is not a depression in any classical sense. Growth continues even though it is very slow. A reporter's opinion is one thing, I will stick with accepted definitions - and there are several - that describe a true depression.

You realize that growth continued in the US for most of what is considered the Great Depression, right? Regardless of what definition you want to use of a depression, what is undeniable is that the Eurozone is now experiencing worse economic performance than it did during the years of the Great Depression.

That's how bad austerity has been for their economies. Thanks, Germany!

 

[OutHouse]

damn is there not a subject that Eskimopie is not a "expert" in?

I view Eskimo as the Carl Rove of our forums.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

This is what "austerity" looks like in France.

The most significant issue that hampered their growth was tax increases. Taking money out of the private sector is the kiss of death for economic growth.