"France is Not a Western Country Anymore"

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swifty3

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
392
0
0
Originally posted by: LH
What about Turkey, our main middle east ally, who turned down billions of dollars of US bribe money?

They turned it down because they wanted to do a land grab and snatch up "Kurdistan" and the 600 oil wells along with it. Also where the hell do you think all those A10 Wart Hogs take off from? Thats right, Turkey, we have a base there that we are allowed to use even if they did deny us use of their land for a ground invasion.

Schroder(sp?) said yesterday that Saddam needed to be removed. So Germany isnt quite taking the same route as Russia and France. China isnt really vocal about anything.

Everyone knows that saddam is bad news, but there are no german soldiers fighting on the front, and you wont see any unless saddam uses WMD.

The a-10's do not take off from turkey. We can fly over their air space, but not fly sorties against Iraq from any base in turkey. something that colin powell was trying to change on his visit to turkey.

And your argument for a land grab is incorrect as well. They are not interested in a "land grab". Destabilizing the country of iraq could lead to the Kurds to attempt to set up an autonomous state, which the turks dont want, due to the large number of kurds living in the turkish lands that border iraq.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: Stark
Ouch!! :confused:

France is Not a Western Country Anymore
By Guy Milliere
FrontPageMagazine.com | March 31, 2003


French-bashing is everywhere in the American media. I am French, and I must say if Americans knew completely what's happening in France, the French-bashing would be far harsher.

Jacques Chirac has been a friend of Saddam Hussein for more than thirty years. He allowed the sale of nuclear facilities to Iraq that were destroyed just in time by Israël. He sold Iraq the planes that were been used to gas thousands of Kurds. And Saddam is not the only friend Chirac has. Chirac has never met a ruthless dictator he did not like. Worse, Chirac is unprincipled and greedy. It is common knowledge in France that he stole a lot of money when he was the mayor of Paris, and everyone knows that if he had not been re-elected in May 2002, he would be in jail now. To hear him speaking about morality or international law nauseates every decent Frenchman.

And Chirac is not the only politician of this stripe in France. These days, it is becoming hard to find a French politician ready to speak about human rights, freedom or democracy. All of them seem to have the same speechwriter or to belong to the same totalitarian political party; all of them are anti-American, anti-Israeli and "pacifists." They regard Western civilization as something filthy and abhorrent.

If you read the newspapers, it's the same. At times it seems the only difference between the Soviet Union twenty years ago and France today is that in Soviet Union you had only one Pravda, and in France you now have at least ten such propaganda outlets: Different titles, same content. Their party line is clear in reporting on the personalities found in the present Middle Eastern crisis. Saddam Hussein, the "President of Iraq"? Well, maybe he has been brutal, but you know, in "those" countries... George W. Bush? He?s a "moron" - a former alcoholic, who has become a crazy fanatic, in fact the most dangerous man on the face of earth. Ariel Sharon? A fascist who loves to kill Arabs. Arafat? A great freedom fighter. When an American general speaks, it is merely propaganda, but when Tariq Aziz pontificates, it is pure truth. Almost everyday you hear anti-Semitic remarks, to boot.

The anti-Semitism has created a threat to the physical safety for French Jews. Almost every week, some Jews get mugged, simply for being Jews. Almost nobody pays attention to it. When an anti-Semitic act is so disgusting it is impossible to hide it, journalists will speak of "confrontation between communities." When confronted with the reality that these "confrontations" are always Muslims attacking Jews, the editorial response: "Just because there has yet to be a single documented case of a Jew attacking a Muslim yet doesn't mean it will never happen. . . ."

And Jews are not the only victims of France's new identification with radical Islam. In many French cities with a growing radical Islamist population, no teenage girl can go out in the evening, at least not without a full burqa. If she does, it will mean that "she is for everybody": in short, a whore. In the same cities, every teenage girl - regardless of religion - has to wear the Muslim veil if she does not want to be harassed or killed. Almost every month, a young woman is mugged and raped in a suburb of a big city. Gang rape has become so frequent that a new word, used by the rapists themselves to define their hideous actions, is used by everybody: tournantes (revolving). To the rapists, the woman is nothing, a mere object to be thrown away after use. The people who speak about "revolving" seem to forget a human being is involved as the victim. Policemen do nothing. Every decent person knows the problem is Islam, but no one dares to say it. It could be dangerous. The streets are not safe.

One year ago, a French Muslim decided to create a new business: he was tired of seeing people drinking Coca-Cola - all this money going to Americans! He found a factory and started to produce Mecca Cola. On the label, he put a picture of the Al Aqsa mosque, with a large part of his profits would help to support the Palestinian cause. In some suburbs of Paris, Coca-Cola has disappeared; Mecca Cola has replaced it. A few days ago, another Muslim businessman announced he will start to sell Muslim-Up. It will have the taste of Sprite or Seven-Up, but it will be a Muslim drink - and naturally the profits will go to the Palestinian jihad, as well.

Three radio stations in France are Muslim radio stations, and if you listen to them, dedicated to broadcasting the voice of hate and racism all day long. One radio station belongs to a friend of the rightist Jean-Marie Le Pen, and curiously, if you listen to it, you will hear the same voice of hate and racism. Rightists and radical Muslims have discovered they have many things in common.

If you want to understand why all this is happening, you have to understand one thing: thirty years ago, French governments started to have a new foreign policy. They called this new policy, "Arabian Policy." France became closer to Arab countries - all of them disgusting dictatorships. France "benefited" by doing business easily in these countries. In exchange, France had to push Europe to unknot its ties with Israël and the United States. In exchange too, "professors" came from the Arabian dictatorships to teach the Arabic language to the young Arabs living in France. The only book they used to teach the Arabic language was THE book, Al Kuran.

Now comes the time to pay the check: six million Muslims live in France, at least ten per cent of them are radical Islamists poised on the edge of violence. And these radical Muslims have allies on both the extreme Left and the extreme Right. France is not a Western country anymore, it is now the leader of the Arab/Muslim world. Israel has to know France is its main enemy. The United States has to understand they have nothing to expect from today's France except nastiness, treason, and cheating.
Link

Sigh, more France bashing....

 

RyanM

Platinum Member
Feb 12, 2001
2,387
0
76
BUT HEY! If we're gonna bash the French, let's cluster-bomb them!

France has neither winter nor summer nor morals.
Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country.
France has usually been governed by prostitutes."
---Mark Twain

"I would rather have a German division in front of me
than a French one behind me."
--- General George S. Patton

"Going to war without France is like going deer
hunting without your accordion."

---Norman Schwartzkopf

"We can stand here like the French, or we can do
something about it."

--- Marge Simpson

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure"
--- Jacques Chirac, President of France

"The only time France wants us to go to war is when
the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee."

--- Regis Philbin

"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and
not dressed any better,on average, than the citizens
of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and
drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more
stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses
of whiskey I don't know."

--- P.J O'Rourke (1989)

"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an
aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to
dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for
it."

--- John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona

"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam
Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses
and wears a beret. He is French, people."

--- Conan O'Brien

"I don't know why people are surprised that France
won't help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all,
France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of France!"
--- Jay Leno

"The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it
came marching into Paris under a German flag."

--- David Letterman
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: Jimbo
Originally posted by: B00ne
again, u didnt read - weapons is something different than equipment to build up a plant. By your definition every steel export to Iraq should be declared as weaponsdeal after all steel is used to make weapons....

It looks as if you are the one that did not read.

The 12,000-page weapons declaration that Iraq delivered to the United Nations in December identifies 31 major foreign suppliers for its chemical weapons program, including 2 companies based in the United States that are now defunct, 14 from Germany, 3 each from the Netherlands and Switzerland and 2 each from France and Austria.

Jimbo, c'mon I do not have to explain your own language to u, do I. Again, a supplier for a chemical weapons program does not a chemical weapon make. Btw how should one export something that he is not producing? Do u think those things pop up in the sky over germany?

 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
In many French cities with a growing radical Islamist population, no teenage girl can go out in the evening, at least not without a full burqa. If she does, it will mean that "she is for everybody": in short, a whore. In the same cities, every teenage girl - regardless of religion - has to wear the Muslim veil if she does not want to be harassed or killed.

Fvcking load of bollox. Who writes this sh!t? If he IS French he surely hasn't been there for a VERY long time. Fool.
 

RyanM

Platinum Member
Feb 12, 2001
2,387
0
76
I blame his inaccuracy and idiocy on the fact he is French. I think this article makes France look stupid, but not for the reasons he intended it to.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Oh and this is even better:

One year ago, a French Muslim decided to create a new business: he was tired of seeing people drinking Coca-Cola - all this money going to Americans! He found a factory and started to produce Mecca Cola. On the label, he put a picture of the Al Aqsa mosque, with a large part of his profits would help to support the Palestinian cause. In some suburbs of Paris, Coca-Cola has disappeared; Mecca Cola has replaced it. A few days ago, another Muslim businessman announced he will start to sell Muslim-Up. It will have the taste of Sprite or Seven-Up, but it will be a Muslim drink - and naturally the profits will go to the Palestinian jihad, as well.

I was in Paris in January. I was not able to find 'Mecca- Cola' or 'Muslim-up'

What a load of anti-islam propaganda. I have never seen such transparent lies in my life....

 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: MachFive
I blame his inaccuracy and idiocy on the fact he is French. I think this article makes France look stupid, but not for the reasons he intended it to.

So you're saying because he is French he is an idiot and inaccurate?

I can't agree with that. Quoting myself from above:

If you just look at cr*p all day, all you will see is cr*p everywhere. Does that mean that the world is nothing but cr*p?

BTW - I agree that Mr. Chirac is a criminal, but as for the "we live in an Arab state" - that's just an extremely negative and limited view of the situation IMHO. Obviously a journalist with some sort an agenda.

Cheers,

Andy
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Oh and this is even better:

One year ago, a French Muslim decided to create a new business: he was tired of seeing people drinking Coca-Cola - all this money going to Americans! He found a factory and started to produce Mecca Cola. On the label, he put a picture of the Al Aqsa mosque, with a large part of his profits would help to support the Palestinian cause. In some suburbs of Paris, Coca-Cola has disappeared; Mecca Cola has replaced it. A few days ago, another Muslim businessman announced he will start to sell Muslim-Up. It will have the taste of Sprite or Seven-Up, but it will be a Muslim drink - and naturally the profits will go to the Palestinian jihad, as well.

I was in Paris in January. I was not able to find 'Mecca- Cola' or 'Muslim-up'

What a load of anti-islam propaganda. I have never seen such transparent lies in my life....

Paris is a big city. Were you in any of the Muslim quarters or in any of the predominately Muslim banlieu on the outskirts? I am not saying he's right or wrong since I have not been to France since 2001, but I do know that race relations in France are horrible and have been for quite some time. There are lingering feelings over what happened in Algeria, and Le Front National with Le Pen have been advocating for years to kick all the immigrants out of France. I personally witnessed three crimes perpetrated by Muslims right in front of me (well, one was 10 floors down), and none by Frenchmen while I was living there. Take that for what it's worth, but that's my experience.

How long have you lived in France?
 

guigui38

Member
Apr 15, 2003
44
0
0
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Oh and this is even better:

One year ago, a French Muslim decided to create a new business: he was tired of seeing people drinking Coca-Cola - all this money going to Americans! He found a factory and started to produce Mecca Cola. On the label, he put a picture of the Al Aqsa mosque, with a large part of his profits would help to support the Palestinian cause. In some suburbs of Paris, Coca-Cola has disappeared; Mecca Cola has replaced it. A few days ago, another Muslim businessman announced he will start to sell Muslim-Up. It will have the taste of Sprite or Seven-Up, but it will be a Muslim drink - and naturally the profits will go to the Palestinian jihad, as well.

I was in Paris in January. I was not able to find 'Mecca- Cola' or 'Muslim-up'

What a load of anti-islam propaganda. I have never seen such transparent lies in my life....

Paris is a big city. Were you in any of the Muslim quarters or in any of the predominately Muslim banlieu on the outskirts? I am not saying he's right or wrong since I have not been to France since 2001, but I do know that race relations in France are horrible and have been for quite some time. There are lingering feelings over what happened in Algeria, and Le Front National with Le Pen have been advocating for years to kick all the immigrants out of France. I personally witnessed three crimes perpetrated by Muslims right in front of me (well, one was 10 floors down), and none by Frenchmen while I was living there. Take that for what it's worth, but that's my experience.

How long have you lived in France?

well i have been living in france for 29 years and i had only some minor pb (hot discussions with youngs)
i have been once in new york and i wad agressed by some one
does that means every one in america is a thief????
there are NOW a great anti americanism among the arab population that is true as there is a strong anti french feeling in america

when you say " I do know that race relations in France are horrible" because look in america, i think the situation is a lot worse there
mulriracial community are a hell to manage, there are always pbs between them

but dont believe anything you read in the media
sometimes i laugh when i am looking at fox

well have a nice day
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: guigui38
well i have been living in france for 29 years and i had only some minor pb (hot discussions with youngs)
i have been once in new york and i wad agressed by some one
does that means every one in america is a thief????


That's not what I was stating, and I knew someone would misconstrue it no matter how well I described it. I was illustrating the fact that I saw three street crimes committed in front of my eyes while I lived there. All three were committed by Arabs. That mere fact (that a minority seems to commit an abundance of crimes) causes friction between the Arab and non-Arab communities -- at least it used to, and I seriously doubt anything has changed since '93.

there are NOW a great anti americanism among the arab population that is true as there is a strong anti french feeling in america

Oh, please, Arabs have hated the U.S. for quite a bit longer than the current situation. So have the French. Or, why is it that McDonald's is periodically the target of protests in France?

when you say " I do know that race relations in France are horrible" because look in america, i think the situation is a lot worse there mulriracial community are a hell to manage, there are always pbs between them

Yes, there are always problems in the U.S. among the various races, but I rarely see the kind of vitriol which I witnessed in France from and toward the Arabs there. Part of that I'm sure extends from Algerie, but there's also the extremely high unemployment rates which make for a restless and crime-prone Arab youth population. What is the longest period of time you were in the States?

One other note: There is no political party in the States which has as one of its tenets that all minorities should be deported (FN). At one point, FN garnered something around 10% of the national vote, n'est-ce pas?

 

guigui38

Member
Apr 15, 2003
44
0
0
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: guigui38
well i have been living in france for 29 years and i had only some minor pb (hot discussions with youngs)
i have been once in new york and i wad agressed by some one
does that means every one in america is a thief????


That's not what I was stating, and I knew someone would misconstrue it no matter how well I described it. I was illustrating the fact that I saw three street crimes committed in front of my eyes while I lived there. All three were committed by Arabs. That mere fact (that a minority seems to commit an abundance of crimes) causes friction between the Arab and non-Arab communities -- at least it used to, and I seriously doubt anything has changed since '93.

there are NOW a great anti americanism among the arab population that is true as there is a strong anti french feeling in america

Oh, please, Arabs have hated the U.S. for quite a bit longer than the current situation. So have the French. Or, why is it that McDonald's is periodically the target of protests in France?

when you say " I do know that race relations in France are horrible" because look in america, i think the situation is a lot worse there mulriracial community are a hell to manage, there are always pbs between them

Yes, there are always problems in the U.S. among the various races, but I rarely see the kind of vitriol which I witnessed in France from and toward the Arabs there. Part of that I'm sure extends from Algerie, but there's also the extremely high unemployment rates which make for a restless and crime-prone Arab youth population. What is the longest period of time you were in the States?

One other note: There is no political party in the States which has as one of its tenets that all minorities should be deported (FN). At one point, FN garnered something around 10% of the national vote, n'est-ce pas?


dont tell me that france is more violent than america
in us how many crimes are commited by black ppl? most of the time crimes are commited by the poorest ppl
the vitriol u speak about france is in some case true
and for the political party i remember that in the us you have a community called the kkk which is not very nice and some militia whose feeling against "non-white" people are quite strong
tell me whiwh proportion of "non-white" people do u have in jail?
you are true about the fn
dont you have any pb of immigration near mexico?
the longest period i was in ny was three months
one at ny and 2 at boston
and yes arabs have always had a strong anti american feeling because us always supported israel agaisnt them and the us dont respect the muslim culture
i read taht two evangelist arrived in jordanie ready to convert the poor dumb muslim to the true faith
that only afraid me
it is good it is only a part of the us who feel that way
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
dont tell me that france is more violent than america

I never said that. France has more petty crime than the U.S. in terms of its widespread presence. Now, some of that is probably related to me being a foreigner and thus being a target (or feeling like one). I haven't seen any actual figures on it. Violent crime is obviously more common in the U.S. -- there's no disputing that.

in us how many crimes are commited by black ppl? most of the time crimes are commited by the poorest ppl
the vitriol u speak about france is in some case true
and for the political party i remember that in the us you have a community called the kkk which is not very nice and some militia whose feeling against "non-white" people are quite strong


I just read an article in Le Monde last night which discussed the FN in Alsace. Here is the article. The KKK, by contrast, does not hold political party status and does not run candidates in local or national elections and has never had a political representative in the national assembly (Congress) nor even in a local assembly, sitting as a member of the KKK. The KKK is very much regarded as an extreme fringe group, and its numbers are probably in the low thousands scattered over many communities, and it is waning, not growing. FN appears far different.

tell me whiwh proportion of "non-white" people do u have in jail?

It's high. There are many theories for why that is.

dont you have any pb of immigration near mexico?

Enormous problem. Most people, however, are in favor of stopping the illegal immigration but allowing legal immigration to continue. This country was founded on immigration so that will never cease and has always been seen as a positive, not something that needs to end completely. In France, I found the tone much different.

the longest period i was in ny was three months
one at ny and 2 at boston


If your only experience of the US was in NY and Boston, you have missed the real US. I wouldn't be saying that I know much about the French if I had lived in Paris the whole time (I was in Grenoble) and had never visited other parts of the country. I was in Cannes, Nice, Grenoble, Annecy, Dijon, Carcassone, Paris, Beaune, and quite a few others. Honestly, there is much I have yet to learn about the French, and I really don't dislike the country or its people, only the government. Life would be boring without French wine. :)

and yes arabs have always had a strong anti american feeling because us always supported israel agaisnt them and the us dont respect the muslim culture
i read taht two evangelist arrived in jordanie ready to convert the poor dumb muslim to the true faith
that only afraid me
it is good it is only a part of the us who feel that way


Hopefully President Bush can change the perception that the U.S. only supports Israel to the detriment of the Arab world. It seems that the change in the administration of the Palestinians could lead to real progress between the PA and Israel, especially after Sharon's recent comment regarding compromise on the settlement issue. Also, if we can do good things in Iraq, that may go a long way to raising the opinion of the U.S. in the Arab world. Kuwaitis like us for what we did; hopefully the Iraqis will, too.

As for the evangelicals, I can understand their perception of what they are seeking to accomplish, but I know that it does reflect poorly on Christians if the Muslims see them as condescending. If they, the evangelicals, would not consider responding to a Muslim cleric asking them to convert to Islam, why would they expect the reverse to happen? That being said, they are simply following their own faith and see it as their duty to "spread the Word". The same happened in Islam, and I'm sure continues to a certain extent today.

A little understanding of each other would go a long way. I used to have people coming to my door who wanted to talk about their religion. I never considered it an insult, and I sometimes would engage them in conversation to find out what they were doing and what their faith involves so I could better understand them. I am getting more tolerant as a I grow older. :)
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
1,837
0
0
Originally posted by: MachFive
This article sounds more anti-Islam than anti-French.

I agree. Besides, there is a 1905 law that bans any display of religous affiliation in state institutions, to further the notion of separation of church and state, and many Muslims in France cannot find jobs or go to school if they wear their head veils, so obviously this guy does not know what he is talking about. Anyone who doubts that check this out:

NY Times article
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Originally posted by: MachFive
This article sounds more anti-Islam than anti-French.

I agree. Besides, there is a 1905 law that bans any display of religous affiliation in state institutions, to further the notion of separation of church and state, and many Muslims in France cannot find jobs or go to school if they wear their head veils, so obviously this guy does not know what he is talking about. Anyone who doubts that check this out:

NY Times article

Funny. I remember going to school with Muslims wearing scarves at the Universite Stendahl in Grenoble. They weren't wearing the full abaya, but they were still wearing scarves covering their heads, in a more moderate tradition of Islam.

I guess they were breaking the law?
rolleye.gif
 

guigui38

Member
Apr 15, 2003
44
0
0
well the scarves is not a pb the law says that no religious symbol is to be found at school
but most of school dont repect this law
every school i attend did count some ppl displaying religious symbol (arab, jews or catholic)
it didnt pose any problems at all
france is a pretty tolerant country
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: guigui38
well the scarves is not a pb the law says that no religious symbol is to be found at school
but most of school dont repect this law
every school i attend did count some ppl displaying religious symbol (arab, jews or catholic)
it didnt pose any problems at all
france is a pretty tolerant country

I used to wear a crucifix to school -- guess that was forbidden as well. Oh well! :)

France is generally tolerant, except for American businesses and government. ;) They certainly do have a more open mind about homosexuality and sexuality in general. I miss those French commercials that blatantly used sex to sell something.
 

guigui38

Member
Apr 15, 2003
44
0
0
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: guigui38
well the scarves is not a pb the law says that no religious symbol is to be found at school
but most of school dont repect this law
every school i attend did count some ppl displaying religious symbol (arab, jews or catholic)
it didnt pose any problems at all
france is a pretty tolerant country

I used to wear a crucifix to school -- guess that was forbidden as well. Oh well! :)

France is generally tolerant, except for American businesses and government. ;) They certainly do have a more open mind about homosexuality and sexuality in general. I miss those French commercials that blatantly used sex to sell something.

a crucifix is a symbol of religious belief
but i repeat most of the school (maybe 99.999%) tolerate it
and for being tolerant towards american it was true until this war
but when you read american paper on france and french ppl you can understand why our opinion has shifted
when you are insulted as a person you change your mind very quickly.
and dont tell me that on us tv you dont see commercial with sex content within. They are not many just like here