France Begins The Painful Process Of Self Examination

[cpumaster]

actually some of the Iraqis oil went to US too, not just French, nobody got it cheap cause UN determined the price, of course there's always the balck market oil from Iraq in which case nobody knows where it went to, except that it personally enrich the Saddam regime. anyway, if we criticize French because of the way they profitted from UN sanction on Iraq and try to profit from Saddam regime, now that Iraq has been freed, should we critize our companies if they profitted in Iraq after the war or due to the war (missile, weapon companies, etc)? Isn't that sort of the same behavior? I am not trying to defend french, just trying to self-examine our own action.
And WMD of course is another whole issue, I agree Saddam is pretty dangerous with or without WMD, but since WMD has been mentioned in our president speech, I just pray that we do find it and that Saddam do have it. Otherwise it would be like the police killing a guy (to make the anecdote works, let's just say he's a well-known bad guy) because they suspect he has weapon behind his jacket only turn out it's not a weapon,...

Oh btw, before the Gulf War I, Saddam is pretty close to George Bush Sr. dating back to his year as CIA director... and one of the reason Saddam dare to take on Kuwait is because he misread Bush and thought he got the green light due to their close relation...

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: cpumaster
actually some of the Iraqis oil went to US too, not just French, nobody got it cheap cause UN determined the price, of course there's always the balck market oil from Iraq in which case nobody knows where it went to, except that it personally enrich the Saddam regime. anyway, if we criticize French because of the way they profitted from UN sanction on Iraq and try to profit from Saddam regime, now that Iraq has been freed, should we critize our companies if they profitted in Iraq after the war or due to the war (missile, weapon companies, etc)? Isn't that sort of the same behavior? I am not trying to defend french, just trying to self-examine our own action.
And WMD of course is another whole issue, I agree Saddam is pretty dangerous with or without WMD, but since WMD has been mentioned in our president speech, I just pray that we do find it and that Saddam do have it. Otherwise it would be like the police killing a guy (to make the anecdote works, let's just say he's a well-known bad guy) because they suspect he has weapon behind his jacket only turn out it's not a weapon,...

Oh btw, before the Gulf War I, Saddam is pretty close to George Bush Sr. dating back to his year as CIA director... and one of the reason Saddam dare to take on Kuwait is because he misread Bush and thought he got the green light due to their close relation...

Syria was geting about 250,000 barrels a day via a pipeline. This was shut off this week.
The UN was making about $2million a day in handling fees with the oil for program.
The French and Russian had contracts signed with Iraq once the sanctions were lifed.

All the US was doing was buying oil via the oil for food/medicine program.

 

[cpumaster]

of course we should not forget the food aid that UN provided for Iraqis citizens using the $2million/day they got from handling the oil, and actually has been praised by many US official as doing very good job, in fact the only good job UN could do
and of couse now that we are in charge of Iraq, there goes the damn slow and expensive beaurocratic red tapes that we went through to get Iraqis oil. In fact now the French and Germany will be the one that have to went through even longer and expensive red tapes (through "Iraqis American govt", US, British, Australia, Spain, Italian, Poland) to get the oil
--> yeah, this will show Chirac next time who is right and in charge and make him think twice to oppose our might and furry!!!!

 

[Danatodd99]

France, Germany and Russia were all against the U.S. attacking Saddam because they were all sending him weapons after the UN
set sanctions in place the forbade any sort of that trade since the first gulf war.
They just didn't want to get caught with their pants down.
Right now they all look bad in the eyes of the EU for wanting to keep the allies from ousting that Madman.
Also the UN lost alot of credibility in this whole thing as well.
They will need to prove themselves useful again.
I sure wish that this could have been resolved without war, but Saddam didn't want it to end that way.
Maybe if France, Germany and Russia would have supported the U.S. he might have rethought his position.

 

[Danatodd99]

France, Germany and Russia were all against the U.S. attacking Saddam because they were all sending him weapons after the UN
set sanctions in place the forbade any sort of that trade since the first gulf war.
They just didn't want to get caught with their pants down.
Right now they all look bad in the eyes of the EU for wanting to keep the allies from ousting that Madman.
Also the UN lost alot of credibility in this whole thing as well.
They will need to prove themselves useful again.
I sure wish that this could have been resolved without war, but Saddam didn't want it to end that way.
Maybe if France, Germany and Russia would have supported the U.S. he might have rethought his position.

 

[Danatodd99]

France, Germany and Russia were all against the U.S. attacking Saddam because they were all sending him weapons after the UN
set sanctions in place the forbade any sort of that trade since the first gulf war.
They just didn't want to get caught with their pants down.
Right now they all look bad in the eyes of the EU for wanting to keep the allies from ousting that Madman.
Also the UN lost alot of credibility in this whole thing as well.
They will need to prove themselves useful again.
I sure wish that this could have been resolved without war, but Saddam didn't want it to end that way.
Maybe if France, Germany and Russia would have supported the U.S. he might have rethought his position.

 

[Danatodd99]

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Danatodd99
France, Germany and Russia were all against the U.S. attacking Saddam because they were all sending him weapons after the UN
set sanctions in place the forbade any sort of that trade since the first gulf war.
They just didn't want to get caught with their pants down.
Right now they all look bad in the eyes of the EU for wanting to keep the allies from ousting that Madman.
Also the UN lost alot of credibility in this whole thing as well.
They will need to prove themselves useful again.
I sure wish that this could have been resolved without war, but Saddam didn't want it to end that way.
Maybe if France, Germany and Russia would have supported the U.S. he might have rethought his position.

France et al. could have been assured that war would occur and not occur if they joined the party... assuming he (saddam) rethought as you suggest... so there must be some other issue is afoot. or was.

 

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
In re-reading the title of this thread -

I hope it includes the use of a speculum, lard, and a bowling ball.

LOL!

 

[guigui38]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: guigui38

Originally posted by: cpumaster
Actually the reason French leaders refused to support the war is not because they like or think Saddam can win, they feared US more than Saddam himself. US has been pretty successful lately in term of militray campaign, but been very abysimal in term of exercising its diplomatic prowess. Maybe it's due to the secretary of state or maybe it's due to the president (secretary of state can't do nothing without the backing of president). Anyway, maybe the war is right, maybe it's wrong, it won't be answered until after 10, 50, 100 or 1000 years, but the bottom line is this war was about power and exercising it. With the victory, it increases US influence and power, especially in the middle east, the source of 80%(?) of the world's oil, and that is bad news for other countries, allies and especially non-allies. French relation with US has been close but not especially close, that's why they are not too eager to see us dominating the middle east. Who is to say Bush won't try to stop any shipment of oil to French tomorrow just for some silly arguments? I am not trying to defend France, just trying to see things from their leader perspective....

i totally agree with u
france did not support sadam
france didnt want to see "the imperialism" of the us takes root in me
all this war was a war for power, influence over the oil production

Why don't people do at least a minimum of research before posting?

Chirac on Iraq: What friends are for
By PETER WORTHINGTON -- Toronto Sun
"....
Even a cursory scanning of the Internet gives an answer for Chirac's reluctance to undermine Saddam - a personal relationship has existed between the two that extends back beyond 25 years and transcends national interests into personal friendship
...


"France 'facing both ways on Iraq'
BBC Tuesday, 4 February, 2003
"French President Jacques Chirac, heading into a crucial summit with the UK, is publicly opposed to war in Iraq - but in fact is keeping his options open.
France would like to preserve its special ties with Iraq.
It has the closest trade links with Iraq of any country in Europe.
...
The French have also sold the Iraqis fighter aircraft, missiles, radar and other weapons systems worth an estimated $25bn.
...."

Ties with Iraq
IHT Friday, March 7, 2003
"PARIS Polls show that many of the 80 percent of French people who oppose a U.S.-led offensive against Iraq believe America's Iraq policy is driven by its appetite for oil. But similar claims could be made about French efforts to avoid war. .Whether or not France's interests in Iraq are guiding its foreign policy, the country has a clear commercial interest in the maintenance of Saddam Hussein's regime. France's economic ties with Iraq have been close and lucrative in the past. They are profitable at present despite the embargo and, should Saddam survive the current crisis, they would become much more so in the future."
______

guigui38 Consider yourself proven wrong.

lol
i never said france didnt have commercial ties with iraq. It is true a part of the opposition was for commercial reason. But when you have commercial link and the us says "when the war is over only american company will be in iraq" i find it difficult to support the us dont you think so?
chirac was for the exile of sadam right at the beginning, i cant say that means it was a buddy of sadam
the us had close ties with lots of dictature (due to economic reason), would you say they were friends???

 

[Jimbo]

That is a fairly disingenuous post guigui38.
You deny that Chirac had a personal longterm relationship with Saddam, that is untrue.
No statement was EVER made to Chirac that France would have excluded them from rebuilding Iraq, in-spite of their support. That is not only untrue, but silly on its face.

 

[cpumaster]

Chirac on Iraq: What friends are for
By PETER WORTHINGTON -- Toronto Sun

Even a cursory scanning of the Internet gives an answer for Chirac's reluctance to undermine Saddam

you know when a news source got their news from cursory scanning of the Internet, that's always spell D-U-H-! (reliable news or April fools?)

 

[guigui38]

Originally posted by: Jimbo
That is a fairly disingenuous post guigui38.
You deny that Chirac had a personal longterm relationship with Saddam, that is untrue.
No statement was EVER made to Chirac that France would have excluded them from rebuilding Iraq, in-spite of their support. That is not only untrue, but silly on its face.

yes i deny chirac had personnal relation with sadam
for exemple le pen had more close ties with sadam
they probably met a few time but less than bush senior did
iraq WAS a commercial relationship to france not only chirac
chirac is president since 1995 and not before, before that he had little influence over the french politic even when he was prime minister under mitterrand.
And about reconstruction, dont you find strange only american companies get the big money (not even english ones)???
All the contracts were distributed before the beginning of this war

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: guigui38

Originally posted by: Jimbo
That is a fairly disingenuous post guigui38.
You deny that Chirac had a personal longterm relationship with Saddam, that is untrue.
No statement was EVER made to Chirac that France would have excluded them from rebuilding Iraq, in-spite of their support. That is not only untrue, but silly on its face.

yes i deny chirac had personnal relation with sadam
for exemple le pen had more close ties with sadam
they probably met a few time but less than bush senior did
iraq WAS a commercial relationship to france not only chirac
chirac is president since 1995 and not before, before that he had little influence over the french politic even when he was prime minister under mitterrand.
And about reconstruction, dont you find strange only american companies get the big money (not even english ones)???
All the contracts were distributed before the beginning of this war

"yes i deny chirac had personnal relation with sadam"
French Prime Minister, and current President, Jacques Chirac, called Saddam Hussein a personal friend;

"for exemple le pen had more close ties with sadam "
Prove it. I don't care if you put a smiley face at the end. You stated it for some reason, what is it?

iraq WAS a commercial relationship to france not only chirac
True, France was only second to the USSR in providing weapons to Iraq.

"they probably met a few time but less than bush senior did"
Provide a link showing that former Pres. Bush ever met with Saddam.

chirac is president since 1995 and not before, before that he had little influence over the french politic even when he was prime minister under mitterrand.
French President Jacques Chirac's special relationship with Saddam Hussein goes back almost 30 years. As the French Prime Minister in 1974, Chirac was instrumental in boosting France's diplomatic and economic ties with oil-rich Iraq.

And about reconstruction, dont you find strange only american companies get the big money (not even english ones)???
All the contracts were distributed before the beginning of this war
I don't find it strange but then I have researched the reasons why. The contracts were started to be let before the war ended. That meant that the companies involved were allowed to see confidential reports on the situation in Iraq so that they could plan and bid on those contracts. There are few companies that have people with those security clearances in place. As to why the contracts were started before the war ended I suppose we could have waited a while longer to restore water, power and health services to the people of Iraq. That is what you are proposing.


UK industry role in rebuilding Iraq
British firms are set to share the task - and profits - of rebuilding Iraq.

The first United States government contract has been awarded to the American Bechtel Corp. But UK firms are close to signing up as sub-contractors on other deals, according to the British Consultants and Construction Bureau.

"There are a number of UK firms who are right in the middle of negotiating with the United States prime contractors," said chief executive Colin Adams.
...
"My optimism has increased enormously as the weeks have gone by," Mr Adams said.

"The Americans have been bending over backwards to help."
"

 

[Dari]

What is SnapIT doing on this board after he told us (Americans) that we could all go to hell?