France Bans Hijab/Veil In Football

[Incorruptible]

You are the last person around here who should be lecturing anyone on brainwashing.

Frankly, I'm amazed you manage to get your computer online without setting yourself on fire.

How am I brainwashed?😕

And whats the second statement suppose to mean?

 

[WelshBloke]

How am I brainwashed?😕

...

Do you think all religious indoctrination is brainwashing?

 

[PingviN]

And whats the second statement suppose to mean?

It means you're a moron.

 

[Infohawk]

You made a universal statement that Muslim women are forced to wear their hijabs, which is used to support your argument that Western governments should prohibit the wearing of such clothing. I deny your premise until you back it up, and your argument is worthless until you do.

If you took away their superstitions and the coercion of their religion and community, they would not choose to wear that nonsense. Do you disagree with that? Look at cultures where women have rights and real autonomy. You don't see women choosing to wear absurd clothing in inappropriate conditions.

Those people dont have to wear the Hijab then.

The only peoples rights being curtailed are the people who are not being allowed to dress as they like.

No, you're ignoring the collective rights of culturally French people. The fact is all cultures impose conditions on people in public. Nobody is an island that doesn't effect the people around them. You don't flip out because people aren't allowed to walk around nude on the underground or even on the streets in most parts of the world, but according to your logic they should be allowed to do that because people are telling them how to dress.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Funny the largest Muslim population (Indonesia) religious leaders don't require that women wear the hijab. It's up to them, even with this being said some choose to wear the hijab.

 

[Infohawk]

Funny the largest Muslim population (Indonesia) religious leaders don't require that women wear the hijab. It's up to them, even with this being said some choose to wear the hijab.

People are acting like the only form of coercion is legal coercion. People, especially women, have all sorts cultural, community, and family coercion. This is especially true in Islam.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Thats exactly what I have been saying that the women are brainwashed

 

[DCal430]

Maybe I'm wrong.
I had just read about the FIFA reversing their decision and allowing the Hijab saying that it is not a safety concern.
It does look like the FFF will not allow it for secular reasons.
Of course that is the opposite of what secular means.
Looking at several different stories about this , there seems to be some confusion about the difference between wearing a Veil and a Hijab.
A Veil is banned in France a Hijab is not.

A Hijab is banned in french public schools, nearly all religious attires are banned. From Jewish Scull caps, to the Muslim Hijab. The only thing NOT banned are small Christian Crosses.

Apparently according to France a 10 year girl with a Hijab or a 10 year old boy with a Jewish skullcap at school are an front to French secularism, but a 10 year girl with a 2 inch Christian cross necklace is not.

If any state or school did this in the U.S, their would be outrage, it would thought as an a front religious freedom, but in France is viewed as a promotion of religious freedom.

 

[Infohawk]

A Hijab is banned in french public schools, nearly all religious attires are banned. From Jewish Scull caps, to the Muslim Hijab. The only thing NOT banned are small Christian Crosses.

According to wikipedia, everyone is allowed small religious symbols. What is your source?

If you think the French state is trying to push Christianity, you don't have a very accurate view of secularism in France.

 

[Incorruptible]

A Hijab is banned in french public schools, nearly all religious attires are banned. From Jewish Scull caps, to the Muslim Hijab. The only thing NOT banned are small Christian Crosses.

Apparently according to France a 10 year girl with a Hijab or a 10 year old boy with a Jewish skullcap at school are an front to French secularism, but a 10 year girl with a 2 inch Christian cross necklace is not.

France has it the right way, good for them

 

[HamburgerBoy]

If you took away their superstitions and the coercion of their religion and community, they would not choose to wear that nonsense. Do you disagree with that? Look at cultures where women have rights and real autonomy. You don't see women choosing to wear absurd clothing in inappropriate conditions

Yes. Provide evidence that Muslim men in the USA and other Western (semi-)democracies are coercing Muslim women into wearing hijabs. I'm not talking about Saudi Arabia and other backwards theocratic failures that demand the burka, btw.

 

[Incorruptible]

Yes. Provide evidence that Muslim men in the USA and other Western (semi-)democracies are coercing Muslim women into wearing hijabs. I'm not talking about Saudi Arabia and other backwards theocratic failures that demand the burka, btw.

They are when they threaten them with death and violence

 

[soulcougher73]

France has it the right way, good for them

😵

On a side note. I think this may be one of the only times we'll ever see a conservitard say they wish the US was more like France.

 

[Infohawk]

Yes. Provide evidence that Muslim men in the USA and other Western (semi-)democracies are coercing Muslim women into wearing hijabs. I'm not talking about Saudi Arabia and other backwards theocratic failures that demand the burka, btw.

What kind of evidence are you looking for? This is not a hard science experiment. There have been honor killings in the West which should show you that there is extreme coercion but we don't even need to get to that level of discussion here. Do you disagree that parents influence their children's religions and values? Do you disagree that Islam is a patriarchal religion? This is common sense stuff and the burden really shouldn't be on people objecting to these garments. There is no rational reason to wear these garments when playing sports or in temperate climates like Europe. What is your explanation? That they think it's fashionable?

 

[1prophet]

Funny the largest Muslim population (Indonesia) religious leaders don't require that women wear the hijab. It's up to them, even with this being said some choose to wear the hijab.

Yet you still can be convicted of blasphemy in that country, the antithesis to freedom of speech and expression and secularism.

Shiite Cleric Convicted for Blasphemy in Indonesia
http://abcnews.go.com/International..._medium=twitter&utm_campaign=FMA#.UAN3sZEqPfh

An Indonesian court sentenced a Shiite cleric to two years in jail for blasphemy Thursday in a case rights activists have called a setback to religious freedom in the world's third-largest democracy.
The three-judge panel found Tajul Muluk guilty of insulting Islam with his religious teachings.

Citing testimonies from witnesses, the panel said Muluk had taught about revising daily obligatory prayers from five to three, saying the current holy book of Quran was no longer authentic and considering companions of the Prophet Muhammad to be infidels.

"The defendant has been legally and convincingly proven guilty of blasphemy," said presiding judge Purnomo Amin Tjahjo. "His acts, in principle have insulted Islam."

He added that Muluk had dispensed Shiite religious teachings that were declared heretical by the influential Indonesia Ulema (preacher) Council. The council and most Indonesian Muslims are Sunni.

The 39-year Muluk, also known as Ali Murtadlo, was arrested in April. He denied the charges and planned to appeal. The tightly guarded trial was heard at Sampang District Court in Madure, an island off eastern Java.
"This is a matter of dignity as they have considered me as an infidel," he said after his trial. "I have evidence that this trial was made up for political interests." He did not elaborate.

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation and its constitution guarantees freedom of religion. But it has seen various attacks and intimidations in recent years against minorities including Christians and Ahmadiyah who are considered as heretical.

The New York-based Human Rights Watch called on the government to drop the charges and to release Muluk, whose case highlights the threat Indonesia's blasphemy law poses to religious freedom.


" The government needs to reverse the growing trend of violence and legal action against religious minorities in the country," said Elaine Pearson, the group's deputy Asia director.

So much for constitutions and laws, Atatürk had it right with Turkey knowing that laws are not enough unless there is a cultural transformation also.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What kind of evidence are you looking for? This is not a hard science experiment. There have been honor killings in the West which should show you that there is extreme coercion but we don't even need to get to that level of discussion here. Do you disagree that parents influence their children's religions and values? Do you disagree that Islam is a patriarchal religion? This is common sense stuff and the burden really shouldn't be on people objecting to these garments. There is no rational reason to wear these garments when playing sports or in temperate climates like Europe. What is your explanation? That they think it's fashionable?

Evidence that American Muslims wearing hijabs virtually always do so out of coercion atypical of what already exists in society. There have been honor killings here, yeah, but from what I can find, they are isolated. Six over a two year period, out of nearly three million Muslims in the USA. Not particularly significant. Further, you are extrapolating the most extreme form of fundiism (honor killing) into the significantly less extreme form of run-of-the-mill sexual repression and forced modesty, which you can find in many a good white American family.

"Common sense", lol. Original Earl's last post was beautifully succinct; do you disagree that Catholic Christianity is a patriarchal religion? Do you think nuns wear their clothing because it is fashionable? It's quite obvious that the Catholic Church has done much to repress sexuality, of both men and women (but more so women).

 

[Incorruptible]

What kind of evidence are you looking for? This is not a hard science experiment. There have been honor killings in the West which should show you that there is extreme coercion but we don't even need to get to that level of discussion here. Do you disagree that parents influence their children's religions and values? Do you disagree that Islam is a patriarchal religion? This is common sense stuff and the burden really shouldn't be on people objecting to these garments. There is no rational reason to wear these garments when playing sports or in temperate climates like Europe. What is your explanation? That they think it's fashionable?

Just ignore the defenders, they will do whatever it takes to defend the religion, it makes no sense to wear a burka/veil/hijab

 

[Infohawk]

Evidence that American Muslims wearing hijabs virtually always do so out of coercion atypical of what already exists in society. There have been honor killings here, yeah, but from what I can find, they are isolated. Six over a two year period, out of nearly three million Muslims in the USA. Not particularly significant. Further, you are extrapolating the most extreme form of fundiism (honor killing) into the significantly less extreme form of run-of-the-mill sexual repression and forced modesty, which you can find in many a good white American family.

"Common sense", lol. Original Earl's last post was beautifully succinct; do you disagree that Catholic Christianity is a patriarchal religion? Do you think nuns wear their clothing because it is fashionable? It's quite obvious that the Catholic Church has done much to repress sexuality, of both men and women (but more so women).

You are being intellectually dishonest at this point. Name me something that you think is a bad influence on society. How about creationism being taught in schools? Prove to me that every single time someone teaches creationism in schools but ignores evolution, its because they're trying to push religion. That's right, it's a ridiculous task. And yet by looking at basic motives and thinking about it rationally its clear that when someone teaches creationism, it's because of their religious beliefs.

Earl, as usual, attempts to deflect by deflecting towards Christianity. There's nothing succinct about it. A nun's habit would not be allowed in French schools.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You are being intellectually dishonest at this point. Name me something that you think is a bad influence on society. How about creationism being taught in schools? Prove to me that every single time someone teaches creationism in schools but ignores evolution, its because they're trying to push religion. That's right, it's a ridiculous task. And yet by looking at basic motives and thinking about it rationally its clear that when someone teaches creationism, it's because of their religious beliefs.

Earl, as usual, attempts to deflect by deflecting towards Christianity. There's nothing succinct about it. A nun's habit would not be allowed in French schools.

Creationism (AFAIK) is by definition religious. If students are forced to take classes in which it is taught, it is by definition forced upon them. Not so hard to prove. I find that example funny anyways, being that is an example of the government forcing its own moral/religious beliefs on the public. In one case you have fundie moralizing Christians forcing everyone to do X. In another, you have fundie moralizing atheists/anti-theists/Christians again forcing Muslims to do Y.

I'm not just talking about sports and schools btw, where I can (to some extent) understand limitations. People in this thread have supported the banning of hijabs and other clothing representing Muslim faith even in cases where people should have no right to, including you.

And no shit, of course they wear them because of their religious beliefs. Unless you're making the argument that doing anything because religion told you to should be illegal, that is a meaningless point. Why do we permit nuns to exist in public at all? Forcing women to wear giant robe things and abstain from sex is clearly misogynistic.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

It means you're a moron.

He'd have to work his way up to that.

Almost a thousand posts and I have yet to see even one that contained a rational argument.

 

[Infohawk]

Creationism (AFAIK) is by definition religious. If students are forced to take classes in which it is taught, it is by definition forced upon them. Not so hard to prove. I find that example funny anyways, being that is an example of the government forcing its own moral/religious beliefs on the public. In one case you have fundie moralizing Christians forcing everyone to do X. In another, you have fundie moralizing atheists/anti-theists/Christians again forcing Muslims to do X.

I'm not just talking about sports and schools btw, where I can (to some extent) understand limitations. People in this thread have supported the banning of hijabs and other clothing representing Muslim faith even in cases where people should have no right to, including you.

And no shit, of course they wear them because of their religious beliefs. Unless you're making the argument that doing anything because religion told you to should be illegal, that is a meaningless point. Why do we permit nuns to exist in public at all? Forcing women to wear giant robe things and abstain from sex is clearly misogynistic.

This clothing is also inherently religious. You missed the point about the creationism. The point was for you to prove that the professor intends to push religion generally vs. pushing what he thinks is science.

What do you think you're going to prove by shifting the focus to Christianity? Yes, Christianity has oppressed women in the past. I am not aware of any Christian families that bring up their daughters to wear nun habits all the time including while playing sports and at school. What is your point?

Right, so those young women are manifesting their religious indoctrination. It's not like they are 13 year old girls who convert to Islam. They are pressured into it by their families at an early age. They do not have a reasonable option to reject their parents' religion. The suggestion by many in this thread is that they are somehow expressing their individuality or some arbitrary yet rational clothing choice. It is not that way at all.

 

[mnewsham]

so far what I think I have learned from reading 1/2 of this thread is that in america our views are the correct views and anyone who doesn't support our views need to be liberated until they do.

'MERICA FUCK YEAH!

 

[Charles Kozierok]

What do you think you're going to prove by shifting the focus to Christianity? Yes, Christianity has oppressed women in the past. I am not aware of any Christian families that bring up their daughters to wear nun habits all the time including while playing sports and at school. What is your point?

How about the Amish and similar? Or ultra-Orthodox Jews?

Right, so those young women are manifesting their religious indoctrination. It's not like they are 13 year old girls who convert to Islam. They are pressured into it by their families at an early age. They do not have a reasonable option to reject their parents' religion.

Also applies to dress and modesty codes for the groups above, and others.

 

[Infohawk]

How about the Amish and similar? Or ultra-Orthodox Jews?

Do you really need to go through all the list of every single religion in the world? What is the relevance here?

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Do you really need to go through all the list of every single religion in the world? What is the relevance here?

I should think that obvious. You claimed that the "oppression" of women by forcing them to wear modest clothing was something exclusive to Muslims and that you were "not aware" of Christians doing something similar.

Now you're aware.