France and the burqa

[JohnOfSheffield]

From here: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/25/france.burqa/index.html?hpt=Sbin



I know this discussion has come up before in the context of whether or not Muslim women should be allowed to wear the hijab, but the burqa is in another league entirely. Generally speaking, here in the US I see women wearing the hijab and really don't give it much thought (I'm in San Jose, CA, an area usually fairly tolerant of outside cultures). However, I can see myself and a lot of others reacting quite a bit more negatively if we saw women walking around wearing burqas, and I have never personally seen a woman wearing one. So I'll throw this out for discussion and as you all what you think. Is France right in wanting to ban this, whether it be for religious or other (pretending not to be, perhaps) reasons? Does one person's freedom to be Muslim conflict with another's desire to disagree with how Islam treats women?

Of course, you could argue that you're doing something right if Al Qaida threatens to retaliate.

1. The SUGGESTION laid forth isn't an universal ban, it involves schools, hospitals and public institutions. It says absolutely nothing about wearing it anywhere else.

2. The SUGGESTION is likely to be revised on some points as these things ALWAYS are, this has, after all, gone on since 05 and there have been a LOT of other SUGGESTIONS for a law.

3. As it is formulated it doesn't seem too strange, other religious symbols are already banned in some of these settings in France.

 

[Hacp]

If a woman wants to cover up why shouldn't they? This is another example of government intervention gone awry. The powerful politicians in France can't get enough of their own mistresses. In addition, they want to violate the innocence of these unfortunate Muslim women living in France. Socialism at its best.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

If a woman wants to cover up why shouldn't they? This is another example of government intervention gone awry. The powerful politicians in France can't get enough of their own mistresses. In addition, they want to violate the innocence of these unfortunate Muslim women living in France. Socialism at its best.

Trolling does not help a discussion, if you are going to troll a thread, don't be that transparent at least.

 

[StageLeft]

Of course you're skipping over the fact that the burqa is probably the most restrictive misogynist form of garb there is. That, along with the inability of muslims to assimilate, is why France is doing this.

It probably is but some who know more about it than any of us disagree. They may be wrong, but if the government is trying to change thoughts based on clothing it possesses an incredible hubris to pretend to understand people and thoughts enough that it can do such things without side effects. The clothing is more representative and symbolic of how these women are treated than dictating it. Just like you could mandate that the Amish have to wear clothes from the gap it won't change them or what they think.

 

[sandorski]

Government should not be Legislating Religious Practice.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Government should not be Legislating Religious Practice.

That would depend on the practice though, right?

Of course, if you read my post above you will understand that this isn't an all encompasing ban but a ban for certain places.

 

[sandorski]

That would depend on the practice though, right?

Of course, if you read my post above you will understand that this isn't an all encompasing ban but a ban for certain places.

Ya, but something like Clothing I think is way below the threshold.

 

[StageLeft]

That would depend on the practice though, right?

Of course, if you read my post above you will understand that this isn't an all encompasing ban but a ban for certain places.

If it includes "public institutions" it may as well include everything.

 

[gingermeggs]

If a woman wants to cover up why shouldn't they? This is another example of government intervention gone awry. The powerful politicians in France can't get enough of their own mistresses. In addition, they want to violate the innocence of these unfortunate Muslim women living in France. Socialism at its best.

So what about entering the bank?
Could end up with bank robbers dressing up as Muslim women, street cctv's are another security problem as well, if you can't show your face in public.
Its not their innocence at stake, it's the cultural identity of the countries they immigrated to, you don't like the rules there, stay in your own flea bitten, rag hole of a country!
A bikini or speedos uses a modest amount of fabric, but in some cases I endorse full clothing!
Its socialism at its best I would say, just some have a vested interest in dismantling the national identity of western countries to their own benefit!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

If it includes "public institutions" it may as well include everything.

Well, obviously only for those who WORK THERE, that is what it is about.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Ya, but something like Clothing I think is way below the threshold.

That depends on the clothing? Or would a Hitler uniform be ok in a Canadian library for someone who works there? Or for a student attending school?

The thing is, all this means is that if you work for the government you will have to abide by the rules set for the clothing, or if you are a student, it's not strange at all, in fact, this pretty much brings France to the same limits that the UK, US and Canada already has.

They can wear it going shopping, in the streets, in their home, at their restaurant of choice but they can't wear it as students or as government employees.

Sensationalist news and nothing more.

Canucks are doing well though and that makes it seem less important.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

So what about entering the bank?
Could end up with bank robbers dressing up as Muslim women, street cctv's are another security problem as well, if you can't show your face in public.
Its not their innocence at stake, it's the cultural identity of the countries they immigrated to, you don't like the rules there, stay in your own flea bitten, rag hole of a country!
A bikini or speedos uses a modest amount of fabric, but in some cases I endorse full clothing!
Its socialism at its best I would say, just some have a vested interest in dismantling the national identity of western countries to their own benefit!

hacp is just trolling, never mind his bollocks.

 

[HumblePie]

Strangely enough I agree with JohnofShefield here and that is a rarity.

My stance is that this is France so who cares what they do? If they want to ban it, guess what? It's their right as a country and society. Just like Muslim countries force visiting women to wear it, turn about is fair play eh?

Would I support a proposal if this was asked for in the USA? Hrmm, now there is a tough one. I mean there is some precedent already for this in other ways. Such as people can't go about naked everywhere, and many public and private places ban gang clothing, and many other places require uniforms to even be there.

I guess my answer is this. In the privacy of your own home, do what the hell you want. But when it comes to interacting with society the phrase "When in Rome" holds best. Why? Because there can never be ultimate freedom in a society. Why? Ultimate freedom is really anarchy. Freedom to do whatever the hell you want regardless of the consequences is not good. However, no freedom is just as bad. It's that fine line in between where a society must determine the freedoms of its people versus the safety of what it holds of value. Those values can be people, ideas, or anything else that society deems valuable to it.

Giving or removing freedom must always be approached as rational as possible because too much either way can cause problems, depending upon the values of the people of a society. If France wants to ban burqas in certain situations, and they all feel that as a society is needed to uphold their beliefs, values, and safety by removing that freedom, then more power to them.

 

[chucky2]

Strangely enough I agree with JohnofShefield here and that is a rarity.

My stance is that this is France so who cares what they do? If they want to ban it, guess what? It's their right as a country and society. Just like Muslim countries force visiting women to wear it, turn about is fair play eh?

Would I support a proposal if this was asked for in the USA? Hrmm, now there is a tough one. I mean there is some precedent already for this in other ways. Such as people can't go about naked everywhere, and many public and private places ban gang clothing, and many other places require uniforms to even be there.

I guess my answer is this. In the privacy of your own home, do what the hell you want. But when it comes to interacting with society the phrase "When in Rome" holds best. Why? Because there can never be ultimate freedom in a society. Why? Ultimate freedom is really anarchy. Freedom to do whatever the hell you want regardless of the consequences is not good. However, no freedom is just as bad. It's that fine line in between where a society must determine the freedoms of its people versus the safety of what it holds of value. Those values can be people, ideas, or anything else that society deems valuable to it.

Giving or removing freedom must always be approached as rational as possible because too much either way can cause problems, depending upon the values of the people of a society. If France wants to ban burqas in certain situations, and they all feel that as a society is needed to uphold their beliefs, values, and safety by removing that freedom, then more power to them.

Very nicely said!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Strangely enough I agree with JohnofShefield here and that is a rarity.

My stance is that this is France so who cares what they do? If they want to ban it, guess what? It's their right as a country and society. Just like Muslim countries force visiting women to wear it, turn about is fair play eh?

Would I support a proposal if this was asked for in the USA? Hrmm, now there is a tough one. I mean there is some precedent already for this in other ways. Such as people can't go about naked everywhere, and many public and private places ban gang clothing, and many other places require uniforms to even be there.

I guess my answer is this. In the privacy of your own home, do what the hell you want. But when it comes to interacting with society the phrase "When in Rome" holds best. Why? Because there can never be ultimate freedom in a society. Why? Ultimate freedom is really anarchy. Freedom to do whatever the hell you want regardless of the consequences is not good. However, no freedom is just as bad. It's that fine line in between where a society must determine the freedoms of its people versus the safety of what it holds of value. Those values can be people, ideas, or anything else that society deems valuable to it.

Giving or removing freedom must always be approached as rational as possible because too much either way can cause problems, depending upon the values of the people of a society. If France wants to ban burqas in certain situations, and they all feel that as a society is needed to uphold their beliefs, values, and safety by removing that freedom, then more power to them.

No, son, you don't agree with me, i'm an enfocer of the free world and you are looking to find your nearest Hitler Jugend society.

We are nothing alike and while our opinions might cross paths that is all it is, i'm not a fascist but you are.

Burqas are also banned in the US in some situations, strangest thing... it is in the SAME situations... whoul'da thunk it?

Urr durr...

 

[CanOWorms]

Myeah.... this is where you get into 911 conspiracy theory territory and really lose any credibility.

And this is where you get into Holocaust denial territory and really lose any credibility.

 

[CanOWorms]

Strangely enough I agree with JohnofShefield here and that is a rarity.

My stance is that this is France so who cares what they do? If they want to ban it, guess what? It's their right as a country and society. Just like Muslim countries force visiting women to wear it, turn about is fair play eh?

Sorry, but we live in an international community. If France implements this decision it will result in the deaths of Americans. The pervasive anti-American rhetoric in France mixed with the oppressed minorities creates terrorists who will strike at the United States.

Remember where so many of the terrorists are radicalized. What happened in Germany led to the radicalization of several of the 9/11 ringleaders.

 

[CanOWorms]

Burqas are also banned in the US in some situations, strangest thing... it is in the SAME situations... whoul'da thunk it?

It's not remotely the same situation. France is banning women in burqas from any state-funded institutions including hospitals and public transportation.

 

[Ozoned]

Sorry, but we live in an international community. If France implements this decision it will result in the deaths of Americans. The pervasive anti-American rhetoric in France mixed with the oppressed minorities creates terrorists who will strike at the United States.

Remember where so many of the terrorists are radicalized. What happened in Germany led to the radicalization of several of the 9/11 ringleaders.

Meh.... The major religions are headed for a huge clash anyway. Let France make their stand. If nothing else it will educate...

 

[CanOWorms]

If a woman wants to cover up why shouldn't they? This is another example of government intervention gone awry. The powerful politicians in France can't get enough of their own mistresses. In addition, they want to violate the innocence of these unfortunate Muslim women living in France. Socialism at its best.

There is a strong anti-woman contingent in Europe, especially against women minorities. Not many people realize that women's suffrage in Western Europe did not complete until the 1990s.

 

[AreaCode707]

We should stand for the freedom to choose for oneself.

The woman who is free to choose and wears a hijab is making an equal statement against repression as the woman who is free to choose and opts not to wear one.

 

[bfdd]

There is a strong anti-woman contingent in Europe, especially against women minorities. Not many people realize that women's suffrage in Western Europe did not complete until the 1990s.

Damnit didn't the Europeans know we were trying to end womens sufferage and not prolong it! WE MUST END WOMENS SUFFERAGE!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

We should stand for the freedom to choose for oneself.

The woman who is free to choose and wears a hijab is making an equal statement against repression as the woman who is free to choose and opts not to wear one.

Kind of like how Christian women accept that they are below their husbands?

What good has religion ever done for women?

They are not "free" to do wear that any more than they are "free" to be beaten the living daylights out of if their husbands think they deserve it in which case any proper Christian or Muslim woman should agree since the man IS head of the household and that is where this shit comes from, well that and old testament stuff that even Jewish women are supposed to follow.

There is a sheitload of difference between a hijab and a niqab/burqa, if you don't get the difference, think about network vs cable in the US.

Freedom in these cases and in the case of Indians is to abort their caste system and their religious system of honor. Then fathers murdering their daughters in the name of their family honor wouldn't be a problem.

It's not a religious thing, it's opression of those seen as lesser worth and it exists in every religion.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

There is a strong anti-woman contingent in Europe, especially against women minorities. Not many people realize that women's suffrage in Western Europe did not complete until the 1990s.

Since you are such an extreme troll i'll give you this reply but after this one, i'm putting you on ignore, you're not even a clever troll, you're like the Avocado Confetti of the Anti Europe League.

It seems strange to me that consent laws are a fact in every nation in the EU but in the US you can fuck a 14 year old in the arse and say that you were too drunk to understand.

Aye, the US leading the way... sorry, we'll have none of it.

 

[werepossum]

Strangely enough I agree with JohnofShefield here and that is a rarity.

My stance is that this is France so who cares what they do? If they want to ban it, guess what? It's their right as a country and society. Just like Muslim countries force visiting women to wear it, turn about is fair play eh?

Would I support a proposal if this was asked for in the USA? Hrmm, now there is a tough one. I mean there is some precedent already for this in other ways. Such as people can't go about naked everywhere, and many public and private places ban gang clothing, and many other places require uniforms to even be there.

I guess my answer is this. In the privacy of your own home, do what the hell you want. But when it comes to interacting with society the phrase "When in Rome" holds best. Why? Because there can never be ultimate freedom in a society. Why? Ultimate freedom is really anarchy. Freedom to do whatever the hell you want regardless of the consequences is not good. However, no freedom is just as bad. It's that fine line in between where a society must determine the freedoms of its people versus the safety of what it holds of value. Those values can be people, ideas, or anything else that society deems valuable to it.

Giving or removing freedom must always be approached as rational as possible because too much either way can cause problems, depending upon the values of the people of a society. If France wants to ban burqas in certain situations, and they all feel that as a society is needed to uphold their beliefs, values, and safety by removing that freedom, then more power to them.

I agree with all that - but I draw the line at agreeing with JOS. (And thank you for not quoting his post so that I face that admission. I'm fairly sure my head would explode.)