Four Retailers told to stop selling herbal supplements

[Phoenix86]

Well, the purchasers should have done their due diligence and occasionally sent off some of their pills for independent testing to verify that their products were accurate. /s

That sounds expensive and optional so what are the chances of it happening voluntarily?

 

[BoberFett]

Ah, so this is how The Market handles things;... they don't.

How would The Government handle things? Send in the SWAT team and start shooting the checkout clerks?

I'm sure the overnight stocker deserves it, selling people phony supplements...


What? I thought we were going for full on hyperbole?

 

[BoberFett]

That sounds expensive and optional so what are the chances of it happening voluntarily?

You're right. I'm sure no private testing organization such as Underwriters Laboratories will ever exist. BECUZ FREE MARKET IS TEH EBIL!!!

 

[JulesMaximus]

How would The Government handle things? Send in the SWAT team and start shooting the checkout clerks?

I'm sure the overnight stocker deserves it, selling people phony supplements...

What? I thought we were going for full on hyperbole?

I think it's pretty clear how government would handle it. Exactly how they did handle it. Order the retailers selling this shit to stop selling it.

This is precisely why we NEED government regulation.

 

[BoberFett]

I think it's pretty clear how government would handle it. Exactly how they did handle it. Order the retailers selling this shit to stop selling it.

This is precisely why we NEED government regulation.

How much regulation would it take to ensure that every human interaction is free from any potential harm?

I have a pen sitting at my desk. How can I know when buying a pen that I wasn't robbed of ink? We need more pen regulation and constant testing to ensure I get all the ink I'm paying for. Pens might cost $20 each, but that's worth it to prevent TEH EBIL FREE MARKET from screwing me over.

My god, the possibilities are endless. You've convinced me. We must regulate everything! Game on!

 

[JulesMaximus]

How much regulation would it take to ensure that every human interaction is free from any potential harm?

I have a pen sitting at my desk. How can I know when buying a pen that I wasn't robbed of ink? We need more pen regulation and constant testing to ensure I get all the ink I'm paying for. Pens might cost $20 each, but that's worth it to prevent TEH EBIL FREE MARKET from screwing me over.

My god, the possibilities are endless. You've convinced me. We must regulate everything! Game on!

Well, the notion that we don't need any government regulation is just ridiculous. You can't trust businesses to self regulate, they will do whatever they can and screw anyone and everyone to turn a buck no matter what the cost. History is full of such examples.

 

[Daedalus685]

Huh,

I knew there were certain things you could buy in the USA that you can't get here in Canada but I didn't realize how different the regulations were.

They are quite strictly regulated here, requiring both a manufacturing/import license and a product license for (legal) sale granted only after Health Canada tests them for accuracy of contents and safety.

The routinely shut down 'home made' health stores for not having a site or product license.

Edit: To point out, the philosophy of the regulation is to "respect patient choice' so they do not measure efficacy unless directly falsifiable claims are made for a product. Thus you still get lots of snake oils that may have a very narrow clinical usefulness and not help most of the people who buy them for sometimes big big money.

 

[Blanky]

Anyone who doesn't hate science has known for years that 99% of these supplements are crap. Well before this studies have shown many of them don't contain what is in the bottle, but just as big a joke is the notion that these herbs do anything anyway. Billions of dollars a year are literally pissed and shat away by people who have some nebulous fear of "drugs" and are easily marketed to.

As far as this recent thing is concerned knowingly selling people something that isn't what you say is a crime and there should be criminal convictions. Somehow I see nobody in jail over this, even though messing with food is particularly egregious.
But this is what the ignorant masses want. They want to be lied to and sold shit withot regulation. Free market for the win. Keep government out of my snake oil.

Imagine how totally fucked we would be if the FDA had no say over pharmaceuticals.

 

[BoberFett]

Well, the notion that we don't need any government regulation is just ridiculous. You can't trust businesses to self regulate, they will do whatever they can and screw anyone and everyone to turn a buck no matter what the cost. History is full of such examples.

You can't trust the government, they just kill people. History is full of such examples.

 

[BoberFett]

Imagine how totally fucked we would be if the FDA had no say over pharmaceuticals.

We might have some of the treatments that they get in places like Europe much sooner, rather than languishing in government trials for year and years?


Fans of Big Government who believe the market is always a failure and government exists only to protect you are just gullible as people who believe the market is never wrong.

 

[Blanky]

We might have some of the treatments that they in places like Europe much sooner, rather than languishing in government trials for year and years?


Fans of Big Government who believe the market is always a failure and government exists only to protect you are just gullible as people who believe the market is never wrong.

All of Europe has an equivalent org to the FDA. Many people are so profoundly stupid that they cannot make decisions for themselves as to whether a certain treatment is appropriate or not. This is why there are doctors only who can write scripts, why the FDA has a thorough process to analyze efficacy and risks of medicines, etc. without it you end up with the self-medicating farce that is virtually the entire supplement injury, consumed almost entirely by people who have despicably awful analytical skills and couldn't tell you the first thing about what statistical significance means. Yes, these people need to be protected from themselves, much like a child commanded by his father to put a seatbelt on or stop eating candy for breakfast.

Deep down you know this, too. You know most people are empirically incompetent and a world full of people already making ghastly decisions about their own health could never tolerate a deregulated medical industry.

 

[JulesMaximus]

All of Europe has an equivalent org to the FDA. Many people are so profoundly stupid that they cannot make decisions for themselves as to whether a certain treatment is appropriate or not. This is why there are doctors only who can write scripts, why the FDA has a thorough process to analyze efficacy and risks of medicines, etc. without it you end up with the self-medicating farce that is virtually the entire supplement injury, consumed almost entirely by people who have despicably awful analytical skills and couldn't tell you the first thing about what statistical significance means. Yes, these people need to be protected from themselves, much like a child commanded by his father to put a seatbelt on or stop eating candy for breakfast.

Deep down you know this, too. You know most people are empirically incompetent and a world full of people already making ghastly decisions about their own health could never tolerate a deregulated medical industry.

:thumbsup:

 

[jagec]

You're right. I'm sure no private testing organization such as Underwriters Laboratories will ever exist. BECUZ FREE MARKET IS TEH EBIL!!!

Considering that the government requires that many products be tested by a NRTL, you can hardly call UL a full-blown free-market phenomenon.

No one is saying that capitalism doesn't work, just that full-blown 100% laissez-faire capitalism doesn't work.

 

[norseamd]

No one is saying that capitalism doesn't work, just that full-blown 100% laissez-faire capitalism doesn't work.

Capitalism does not work. Capitalism has nothing to do with just the concept of private industry or citizens doing their own private actions or operations.

Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned and operated for profit

 

[zephyrprime]

You can't trust the government, they just kill people. History is full of such examples.

What people who are paranoid about government don't seem to realize is that you can't trust people either. People kill people. Look at Isis and all hood crime. No government involvement there.

 

[Phoenix86]

You're right. I'm sure no private testing organization such as Underwriters Laboratories will ever exist. BECUZ FREE MARKET IS TEH EBIL!!!

Unless you are suggesting the UL is testing herbals, and the industry is listening to them regarding the results I'm pretty sure you don't have a relevant point. It's great that some industries do things a certain way, but if you think every industry will operate in the same manner you're exceedingly short sighted.

I mean, this case here is a beautiful response to UL. It's a massive industry that chose not to self-regulate AND fought off government regulations. The end result is snake oil, well to be honest it's probably always been snake oil.

No where does that mean heavy regulation is good, look at autos. It's regulated and still cuts massive corners. However, 0 oversight is rarely good. How can the buyer beware when the information isn't available?

 

[BoberFett]

All of Europe has an equivalent org to the FDA. Many people are so profoundly stupid that they cannot make decisions for themselves as to whether a certain treatment is appropriate or not. This is why there are doctors only who can write scripts, why the FDA has a thorough process to analyze efficacy and risks of medicines, etc. without it you end up with the self-medicating farce that is virtually the entire supplement injury, consumed almost entirely by people who have despicably awful analytical skills and couldn't tell you the first thing about what statistical significance means. Yes, these people need to be protected from themselves, much like a child commanded by his father to put a seatbelt on or stop eating candy for breakfast.

Deep down you know this, too. You know most people are empirically incompetent and a world full of people already making ghastly decisions about their own health could never tolerate a deregulated medical industry.

And the bureaucracy of the FDA is known to sit on things for years that are successfully treating thing elsewhere. Reasonable testing is understandable, but do you have any idea how much it costs a company to test their drugs or medical devices? How much pain and suffering does OVERregulation cause?

 

[BoberFett]

Unless you are suggesting the UL is testing herbals, and the industry is listening to them regarding the results I'm pretty sure you don't have a relevant point. It's great that some industries do things a certain way, but if you think every industry will operate in the same manner you're exceedingly short sighted.

I mean, this case here is a beautiful response to UL. It's a massive industry that chose not to self-regulate AND fought off government regulations. The end result is snake oil, well to be honest it's probably always been snake oil.

So consumers have no role in rejecting products that choose not to do even the most basic validation?

If in a democracy, we are the government, and the government is us. If people keep buying untested products then isn't the government - we the people - getting exactly what we want?

No where does that mean heavy regulation is good, look at autos. It's regulated and still cuts massive corners. However, 0 oversight is rarely good. How can the buyer beware when the information isn't available?

I'm all for the truth in labeling. This particular instance under that umbrella. People were told they were buying something they weren't, that's flat out fraud. But if people want to buy something items of questionable value such as herbal remedies, I don't think we need to regulate that out of existence entirely as some people think should be done. As long as people are getting the product they agree to purchase, that's on the consumer if it doesn't cure their thinning hair or limp dick.

 

[jagec]

And the bureaucracy of the FDA is known to sit on things for years that are successfully treating thing elsewhere.

Like Thalidomide?

 

[BoberFett]

Like Thalidomide?

Congratulations, you can cherry pick.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I'm all for the truth in labeling. This particular instance under that umbrella. People were told they were buying something they weren't, that's flat out fraud. But if people want to buy something items of questionable value such as herbal remedies, I don't think we need to regulate that out of existence entirely as some people think should be done. As long as people are getting the product they agree to purchase, that's on the consumer if it doesn't cure their thinning hair or limp dick.

Is the truth in labeling thing not go for the claims they make on those labels. How is a label that says 'Contains Unobtainium' much different from 'Cures genital baldness'?

 

[Phoenix86]

So consumers have no role in rejecting products that choose not to do even the most basic validation?

If in a democracy, we are the government, and the government is us. If people keep buying untested products then isn't the government - we the people - getting exactly what we want?

The truth is rarely as cut and dry as philosophy. Philosophically I'd agree, in the real world that doesn't work. I mean, at one time we wanted prohibition of alcohol and I think most would agree that didn't work out so well. Look at the immunization thing, how well is that working out when people make their own decisions?

There's times where it's just not appropriate for people to make up their own minds. Food safety, public transportation are a couple good examples.

I'm all for the truth in labeling. This particular instance under that umbrella. People were told they were buying something they weren't, that's flat out fraud. But if people want to buy something items of questionable value such as herbal remedies, I don't think we need to regulate that out of existence entirely as some people think should be done. As long as people are getting the product they agree to purchase, that's on the consumer if it doesn't cure their thinning hair or limp dick.

Who is going to make sure the product is what they agreed to purchase if there's no oversight..?

 

[Phoenix86]

Congratulations, you can cherry pick.

But the UL example wasn't a picked cherry either, right? Come on man.

 

[Jeff7]

Well, the notion that we don't need any government regulation is just ridiculous. You can't trust businesses to self regulate, they will do whatever they can and screw anyone and everyone to turn a buck no matter what the cost. History is full of such examples.

I work in manufacturing, and I've heard this expression and seen it in action:
"People do what is inspected, not what is expected."


If they know that either no one is monitoring what they do, or if anyone is watching and they won't be able to figure out who screwed up, there's not a lot of motivation to do it right. Yes, some people will indeed do as thorough and proper of a job as they can in the time available. Others are simply there because they get a paycheck, regardless of what happens during the course of their 8hrs+ of work a day.

Anyone who doesn't hate science has known for years that 99% of these supplements are crap. Well before this studies have shown many of them don't contain what is in the bottle, but just as big a joke is the notion that these herbs do anything anyway. Billions of dollars a year are literally pissed and shat away by people who have some nebulous fear of "drugs" and are easily marketed to.

As far as this recent thing is concerned knowingly selling people something that isn't what you say is a crime and there should be criminal convictions. Somehow I see nobody in jail over this, even though messing with food is particularly egregious.
But this is what the ignorant masses want. They want to be lied to and sold shit withot regulation. Free market for the win. Keep government out of my snake oil.

Imagine how totally fucked we would be if the FDA had no say over pharmaceuticals.

It's interesting hearing people from other some countries amazed at our system, here specifically, the way we market and actively advertise prescription medications.

"Ask your doctor if ____ is right for you."

No, what they're saying is "Tell your doctor that you want ____."
It's bad enough that the drug companies also effectively bribe doctors. Check around your doctor's office. In the ones I've been in, Pfizer, Bayer, GlaxoSmithKline all over. Clocks, stationery, binders, pens, plastic bags, you name it. Or the outright payouts ("incentives") if doctors follow a predetermined treatment regimen.
Or the dentist: For a long time, my dentist was all Colgate products. At the end of each visit, I got a branded bag with Colgate products in it, some coupons, and a recommendation for Listerine as the best mouthwash out there.
Recently, they've switched to Crest. Listerine is also no longer the mouthwash of choice, it's now Crest complete. I wonder if any money traded hands there.

 

[Phoenix86]

Or the dentist: For a long time, my dentist was all Colgate products. At the end of each visit, I got a branded bag with Colgate products in it, some coupons, and a recommendation for Listerine as the best mouthwash out there.
Recently, they've switched to Crest. Listerine is also no longer the mouthwash of choice, it's now Crest complete. I wonder if any money traded hands there.

Did you ask your dentist why he changed his recommendation? I'm betting the formulas don't change that often...